Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The creation of the universe

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
aslanlar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The creation of the universe
    Posted: 13-May-2007 at 05:10
How do people think the universe started? Share your views people.
I don't believe in religion, but i don't disagree with a God (or agree with it).
In my opinion, we must mention 2 laws of life that we all agree with, and then try to prove 1 wrong.
1.) SOMETHING CAN COME OUT OF NOTHING (e.g. The world can just appear or God (a creator) can just appear out of nothing).
2.) SOMETHING CAN LAST FOREVER
 
Both of these statements are wrong in scientific terms. But 1 of these basic statements must be broken in order for the world exist. We, and everything around us, is proof that 1 of them statements is wrong.
Now let's look at them.
1.) Either the world must come out of nothing, or a creator must come out of nothing and then create the world out of some 'power' that he has. I'm not talking about how the world came in the second instance, just how God came about. This seem highly unlikely to me. Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing. Sure our level of physics in the world is pretty minute compared to the actual world laws but still, i agree with this.
Now, number 2. Something can last forever. The world was never created, but has always been around and will always be around. Space wasn't created, it just has always existed. The Big-bang/Big-crunch theory supports this. Although scientists say the world is increasing in speed(when they expected it to be slowing down to support the big-crunch theory) and so it isn't likely to be that. Although maybe we havn't slowed down yet and through more slight resistence the universe has when it's expanding, it will gradually slow down in another hundred years. 
Time is much more of a perplexing unit to talk about. We invented a 'time system' but we must forget that, and think about the natural time. Do we know a lot about time?

Anyway, it's my opinion that the world has lasted forever. However, it could be just as likely that a creator has lasted forever and created a universe by himself.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 10:11
You can't analys god scientifically, god doesn't correspond within scientific reason. You must decide whether you are going to approach this question irrationally or rationally, which gives you a choice of god or science as options within each different approach.
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2007 at 11:17
Originally posted by aslanlar

Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing.
 
When? Who showed it? How was it proven?
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2007 at 15:10
1. What you think of being "something" came out of what you think of being "nothing". Define, at least, what something  and  nothing  are
2. Something can last forever -> If forever is then forever is forever. If forever is something then something is forever. If forever is nothing then nothing is forever yet nothing is nothing (or never is never) and forever is forever -> never is forever and forever is never (which I consider being complete, irrational and better than God)
 
Back to Top
Pics View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 13-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Pics Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2007 at 12:53
Our understanding of the Universe is pretty limited.Dark Matter may throw more light on the subject.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2007 at 13:17
God can be explained scientifically, the Qu'ran for example is laden with allegories about the big bang, and the creation of the universe in terms that science is familiar to. It implies the Big Bang theory is correct, as do many scientists. Now how those two atoms came to be is a whole other world of inquiry.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by es_bih

God can be explained scientifically, the Qu'ran for example is laden with allegories about the big bang, and the creation of the universe in terms that science is familiar to. It implies the Big Bang theory is correct, as do many scientists. Now how those two atoms came to be is a whole other world of inquiry.


the core existence of Allah/God cannot be proven in any way or matter in terms of science, but rather it has evidences that there is a creator and there is a God for all this happening around us. We dont deny the existance of God, thru what has been created , to what we know of and what we dont know of.

one cannot comprehend the pure existance of God, simple due to our mind lack of comprehension in that matter.

an example to that..... can u imagine void, without thinking darkness or light?

you cannot.

so scientfically we prove the existance of Allah/God, but we cannot comprehend HOW does he exist, and where is he and all...this is all far from the mind comprehension.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 05:04
But allergories alluding to something are not scientific proof.
 
Can god be recreated in a laboratory? That would be proof.


Edited by Paul - 16-May-2007 at 09:52
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
aslanlar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 09:27
Matter cannot come out of nothing. Nothing by my deffinition is nothing. Space is something so a vacuume is still something. Or maybe not, it's a confusing subject that noone really knows.
God cannot be proven scientiffically but neither can it prove how the world was created in much detail (or maybe even accurately).
"God doesn't correspond to scientific reasoning" Many scientists do indeed believe in God. God may have created the world and left it to evolve into the creatures we are today. Whether it intended for us to happen like we did or not cannot be found through science.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 10:49
Originally posted by Pics

Our understanding of the Universe is pretty limited.Dark Matter may throw more light on the subject.
LOL
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 17:57
Originally posted by Paul

But allergories alluding to something are not scientific proof.
 
Can god be recreated in a laboratory? That would be proof.
 
Absurd statement, how can the creator be re-created in lab, if there is supposed to be one eternal creator. His creation can theoratically be recreated, i.e. adding/subtracting electrons and neutrons can create various different elements, or re-create. The big bang theory is specifically stated, alongside other scientific facts, the thing is you have to put yourself in the mindset of someone from late antiquity who has no knowledge of such facts, to him stating the facts themselves is useless, using allegory that states the facts in easy to understand terms to him, and to us makes it timeless, and therefore useful. Metaphor and allegory are a great teaching tool in themselves, you won't tell a child the speed of light and expect him to understand, you can use metaphors to explain the speed of light, so child would understand in his crude way, adult would understand in his more advanced way = timeless.
 
 
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 19:28
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by aslanlar

Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing.
 
When? Who showed it? How was it proven?
 
Depends on what you mean by nothing. From our point of view, antimatter is nothing since it's opposite of matter. But it can create a lot of energy. And we know energy equals mass, according to Einstein.
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 19:28
Originally posted by aslanlar

I don't believe in religion, but i don't disagree with a God (or agree with it).

 
Oh the irony.LOL
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 06:29
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by aslanlar

Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing.
 
When? Who showed it? How was it proven?
 
Depends on what you mean by nothing. From our point of view, antimatter is nothing since it's opposite of matter. But it can create a lot of energy. And we know energy equals mass, according to Einstein.
 
What I was asking for was names, dates and details of the experiment(s) that allegedly showed the result.
Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 07:05
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by aslanlar

Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing.
 
When? Who showed it? How was it proven?
 
Depends on what you mean by nothing. From our point of view, antimatter is nothing since it's opposite of matter. But it can create a lot of energy. And we know energy equals mass, according to Einstein.
 
What I was asking for was names, dates and details of the experiment(s) that allegedly showed the result.
 
They don't release that in public I think. But CERN most definitely have antimatter stored by magnetic field, and they have collided it with matter using particle accelerator... even if the amount of antimatter used was small. But we don't have the technology to do a proper experiment. I mean, the particle accelerator they used have the radius of about half of Europe's distance!
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 11:43

They don't release that in public I think. But CERN most definitely have antimatter stored by magnetic field, and they have collided it with matter using particle accelerator... even if the amount of antimatter used was small. But we don't have the technology to do a proper experiment. I mean, the particle accelerator they used have the radius of about half of Europe's distance!


What?!? No such experiment has ever been accomplished that proved you can create something from nothing.

Antimatter is not 'nothing' because it is the opposite of matter. Antimatter contrary to it's name is just a different type of matter, it has mass, electrical charge and has interactions with each other that operate under the same rules as matter. And anyway, even if a new element or a new 'something' was created in CERN then it would not have been created from nothing, it would have been created by either the matter-antimatter reaction or the energy from it.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
DukeC View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1564
  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by aslanlar

Physics has shown that nothing can come out of nothing.
 
When? Who showed it? How was it proven?
 
Depends on what you mean by nothing. From our point of view, antimatter is nothing since it's opposite of matter. But it can create a lot of energy. And we know energy equals mass, according to Einstein.
 
Like Janus says antimatter is just as real as "normal" matter, it has an opposite charge which is what cause total annihilation. An antimatter star would have the same gravitational effect, and luminosity as a normal matter star, it's solar wind would fry you though if you tried to approach.
 
As for the creation of the universe, I think it was part of a natural process that's in constant action throughout a much wider structure that we're just starting to glimpse through String and other theories. At its base is pure energy which I believe is eternal and is endlessly recycled, so in some sense many religions have got it right also. People didn't just start getting clever during the age of enlightenment.


Edited by DukeC - 23-May-2007 at 00:10
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 06:27
 
Originally posted by JanusRook


They don't release that in public I think. But CERN most definitely have antimatter stored by magnetic field, and they have collided it with matter using particle accelerator... even if the amount of antimatter used was small. But we don't have the technology to do a proper experiment. I mean, the particle accelerator they used have the radius of about half of Europe's distance!


What?!? No such experiment has ever been accomplished that proved you can create something from nothing.
True AFAIK. However, my question was what experiment has proved that you cannot create something from nothing, since someone asserted that physics had shown it is impossible..



Edited by gcle2003 - 23-May-2007 at 06:28
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 06:56
Originally posted by Pekau

What I was asking for was names, dates and details of the experiment(s) that allegedly showed the result.

They don't release that in public I think.

Of course they release scientific discoveries in public. How else would you know about it? You need to look up the research papers, try going to Google Scholar and searching for 'antimatter'. You get plenty of hits (I didn't open any), no guarentees you can understand anything without being a physicist though.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 08:01
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Pekau

What I was asking for was names, dates and details of the experiment(s) that allegedly showed the result.

They don't release that in public I think.

Of course they release scientific discoveries in public. How else would you know about it? You need to look up the research papers, try going to Google Scholar and searching for 'antimatter'. You get plenty of hits (I didn't open any), no guarentees you can understand anything without being a physicist though.
 
Well, I'm surprised Omar, wouldn't it be enough to read the Quran?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.