Topic: Historical revisionism / negationism in t Posted: 23-May-2007 at 13:53
Originally posted by olvios
There is a statue of Pyrrhus with Teuta in an albania museum presented both as being albanian.Pyrrhus is Greek Teuta illyrian.Thats propaganda and revisionism in its finest on the albanian side.
Stefov
I am sorry mate, but Pyrrhos was not Greek. He was an epirote, and the todays albanians believe themselves to be the descendants of the southern illyrians, and of the northern epirotes.
Prove it wrong , if you do not believe so, but in another thread.
I agree that anatolianism is a revisionist movement but, It can't be an example of revisionism in BALKANS. It also isn't a state policy nor a mainstream ideology.
There're anatolianists in Turkey though, but very thiny minority.
Is not only the Anatolianism, that is a big part and not a minority. We have and the official Turkish Historical Renensionism
There is a statue of Pyrrhus with Teuta in an albania museum presented both as being albanian.Pyrrhus is Greek Teuta illyrian.Thats propaganda and revisionism in its finest on the albanian side.
Stefov
I am sorry mate, but Pyrrhos was not Greek. He was an epirote, and the todays albanians believe themselves to be the descendants of the southern illyrians, and of the northern epirotes.
Prove it wrong , if you do not believe so, but in another thread.
"I have" you just want to deny it for political reasons.
Modern albanians can believe they are escimoes so can fyromians but they will not be escimoes and the rest of the wolrd will not change history to say that escimoes are actually albanians and fyromians.Also wolrd literature and timespace itself will not change to accomodate your fantasy.
All literature and archaeology and ancient eye witneses tell us that epirotes and macedons were greeks.The only way to change it is to become God and change the Universe.
Modern albanians can believe they are escimoes so can fyromians but they will not be escimoes and the rest of the wolrd will not change history to say that escimoes are actually albanians and fyromians.Also wolrd literature and timespace itself will not change to accomodate your fantasy.
All literature and archaeology and ancient eye witneses tell us that epirotes and macedons were greeks.The only way to change it is to become God and change the Universe.
Homer doesnt mention the macedons, and regarding the epirotes, well until the III century BC most of them were considered non-greek. And tell me why the Chaonians, or other epirotan tribes were not invited in the sacred games?
And regarding the Eskimos, well abyssus abyssum invocat
You want me to start posting every ancient quote that they were not only greeks but the greeks themselves so you can fail again to debunk it ?Why do you think so many thousands of evidence exist to the opposite of what you claim?In the "epirotes greeks or illyrians" thread it was made Clear.
The escimoes were a neutral example.
Do you think we are controlling the planet for millenia now to play a prank on albanians?Is there a greek world conspiracy against you going on for millenia as we work through the shadows?
The whole planet is in on this charade it seems from ages past .
Even the Hindu
Edicts of Ashoka (250 BCE)
An irrefutable evidence of the greek ethnicity of ancient Macedonians comes from the famous "Edicts of Ashoka" (c. 250 BCE) where the Buddhist emperor Ashoka refers to the Greek populations under his rule.
The Rock Edicts V and XIII mention the Yonas (or the Greeks) along with
the Kambojas and Gandharas as a subject people forming a frontier
region of his empire and attest that he sent envoys to the Greek rulers in the West as far as the Mediterranean, faultlessly naming them one by one.
In the Gandhari original of Rock XIII, the Greek kings to the West are associated unambiguously with the term "Yona":
More precicely we have the following: "Now it is conquest by Dhamma
that Beloved-of-the-Gods considers to be the best conquest. And it
(conquest by Dhamma) has been won here, on the borders, even six
hundred yojanas away, where the Greek king Antiochos rules,
beyond there where the four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonos, Magas and
Alexander rule, likewise in the south among the Cholas, the Pandyas,
and as far as Tamraparni." Rock Edict Nb13 (S. Dhammika)
The distance of 600 yojanas (a yojanas being about 7 miles), corresponds to the distance between the center of India and Greece (roughly 4,000 miles).
1.Antiochos refers to Antiochus II Theos of Syria (261-246 BCE), who
controlled the Seleucid Empire from Syria to Bactria, in the east from
305 BCE to 250 BCE, and was therefore a direct neighbor of Ashoka.
2.Ptolemy refers to Ptolemy II Philadelphos of Egypt (285-247 BCE), king of the dynasty founded by Ptolemy I, a former general of Alexander the Great, in Egypt.
3.Antigonos refers to Antigonus II Gonatas of Macedon (278-239 BCE)
4.Magas refers to Magas of Cyrene (300-258 BCE)
5.Alexander refers to Alexander II of Epirus (272-258 BCE).
In the Gandhari original Antiochos is refered as "Amtiyoko nama Yona-raja" (lit. "The Greek king by the name of Antiokos"),
beyond whom live the four other kings: "param ca tena Atiyokena cature
4 rajani Turamaye nama Amtikini nama Maka nama Alikasudaro nama" (lit.
"And beyond Antiochus, four kings by the name of Ptolemy, the name of
Antigonos, the name of Magas, the name Alexander" [1]
From the book "The Cambridge Shorter History of India" of Cambridge Un. Press - 1934
[quote]It is evident then, from the testimony of the epigraphic
records, that Asoka ruled the whole of India except the extreme south,
which was in the hands of the Cholas and Pāndyas. The inscriptions
refer also to the nations on the borders of the empire. There were in
the south, as already mentioned, the Cholas and Pāndyas, whose lands
stretched as far as Tamraparni, i.e. Ceylon; while one edict adds two
smaller border chiefs, the Keralaputra, i.e. the king of Kerāla or
Malabar, and the Satiyaputra, not yet satisfactorily identified, but
probably connected with the āndhras. Mentioned along with these independent kingdoms of the south are the Yavana king, Antiyaka, that is the Seleucid Antiochos Theos, whose lands marched with the Maurya empire on the north-west, and
the other Greek kings who were his neighbours. On the outer fringe of
the empire, but within the king's territory, were the Yonas, the Greeks
in the lands ceded by Seleucus to Chandragupta; other Yavanas are named, along with the Gandhāras, apparently as independent;
they were probably the rulers of southern Afghanistan and the land west
of the upper Indus. The Kambojas, mentioned with them and located
north-west of Gandhāra in the Hindu Kush, spoke a semi-Iranian language
and were regarded by Hindus as only half-civilised. Another group of
frontier peoples living within the king's territory but probably
retaining some vestiges of autonomy, belonged to the south.[quote]
Even the Jewish people , my god its a world time space prank agaisnt albania and fyrom and who know who else.Damn those timespace controlling Greeks.
JEWISH
1. In the early Syriac documents the dating is by the "The rule of the Greeks.
2.
In the Greek translation of First Maccabees, one of our earliest
witnesses, the dominion of Antiochus Epiphanes and his successors is
termed "the kingdom of the Greeks," (1. Macc. 1:10, and elsewhere)
3. In the Jewish Talmud and Midrash, we have a reference to Yavans (Seleucid Greeks).
4. In Megillah 11a , we have I did not reject them in the day of the Greeks, ie. In the name of the Seleucid rule.
5. In Maccabaeus 8:18 we have the kingdom of the Greeks, .
. 6. In 1 Macc. 1:10 where is being mentioned the accession of Antiochus Epiphanes as he ascended the throne of the Grecian Kingdom in the [Seleucid] year 137
7. In Dan 11:2 we have a reference in the same sense.
8. In Dan 10:20
we find a passage in which Yavan is used to designate the Greek state
in Asia where the Angel Gabriel is foretelling the future to Daniel,
saying that as soon as the conflict with Persians is finished, another will begin, namely that with the Captain of Yavan
In conclusion noticeably the prophers : - Daniel (chap.8, 1-22 chap.2 para.39 4-13, 26-28, 31, 38 chap. 7, 2-7)
-Isiaiah chap. 19, 20 chap. 19,23
-Joel chap.3 v.6,
-Jeremy,
-Habacoum chap.2, v.5 and
-the books of the Maccabees (1st book chap. 1, v.1 & 10 chap. 6 v.2, II 8, 20 III 8) include explicit elements for the greek character of Macedonia.
Furthermore Jewish historians like:
-Flavius Josephus
makes reference to the Greeks of Macedonia and to Greece or Macedonia,
sometimes using the one term and sometimes the other, clearly regarding
the Macedonians as Greeks and the Greeks as Macedonians (Antiquities of
the Jews book 11 para.337, 109, 148, 286, 184 book 8 para.61, 95 100,
154, 312 book 10 para.273 book 12 para.322 & 414 where he includes
these Macedonina kings together with Antiochus the Great in teh
conquest if the Greek world by the Romans since he regards Macedonia as
a Greek province).
-Philo of Alexandria refers to the Macedonian King Alexander whom he indentifies with the Greeks.
-Maimonides
according to whom "thanks to the conquest of Judea by the
Greek-Macedonian dynasty the greek learning was transplanted there and
contributed to making Hellenism and Judaism acquainted with one another
and to the creation of a new philosophical and religious synthesis
which opened up new paths and gave new directions to human
civilisation".
And Greek and Roman writers! I get it GOD is in on this prank! Damn
those timespace GOd controlling Greeks! How did they pull this off even
if they dont even have proper roads!
Sources on the Epirotes
"Zeus
Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered
Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will,
whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground".
Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)
XI. "War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who
are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered
violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the
Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles...
XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus
asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas
replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were
such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."
Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium
"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer
Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros
Pausanias, II (Corinth).
Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty's name) and the father of Achilles.
but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome.
Pausanias, 1.11
So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum
Pausanias, 1.12
[6] Being apprized of Alcmaeon's untimely end and courted by Zeus,
Callirrhoe requested that the sons she had by Alcmaeon might be full
grown in order to avenge their father's murder. And being suddenly
full-grown, the sons went forth to right their father's wrong. Now
Pronous and Agenor, the sons of Phegeus, carrying the necklace and robe
to Delphi to dedicate them, turned in at the house of Agapenor at the
same time as Amphoterus and Acarnan, the sons of Alcmaeon; and the sons
of Alcmaeon killed their father's murderers, and going to Psophis and
entering the palace they slew both Phegeus and his wife. They were
pursued as far as Tegea, but saved by the intervention of the Tegeans
and some Argives, and the Psophidians took to flight.
[7] Having acquainted their mother with these things, they went to
Delphi and dedicated the necklace and robe according to the injunction
of Achelous. Then they journeyed to Epirus, collected settlers, and colonized Acarnania.
Apollodorus, 3.76-3.77.
Acarnania was Greek and settlers from Epirus helped colonize it...
[12] After remaining in Tenedos two days at the advice of Thetis,
Neoptolemus set out for the country of the Molossians by land with
Helenus, and on the way Phoenix died, and Neoptolemus buried him; and
having vanquished the Molossians in battle he reigned as king and begat
Molossus on Andromache. And Helenus founded a city in Molossia and
inhabited it, and Neoptolemus gave him his mother Deidamia to wife. And
when Peleus was expelled from Phthia by the sons of Acastus and died,
Neoptolemus succeeded to his father's kingdom."
Apollodorus, 6.12
"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first
placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in
Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say,
Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done,
they themselves began to pillage right and left the more confidently
since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when
they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous
position, they were routed and killed."
Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10
"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by
Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he
dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the
neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was
yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself,
with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the
mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest
the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians,
began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As
soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment
and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."
Frontinus, Strategemata, 13
Seems clear that the Epirotes were NOT Illyrians...
"It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For
it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of
those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a
great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then
arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary's,
nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all
admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at
that same period;"
Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11
"Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these,
the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of
Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to
Molotti. Their
power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being
descended from the acid, and because the ancient and famous oracle of
Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after
these Cassopi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract
reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf."
"The
Molotti also were Epirot, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus,
the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The
rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually
endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were
finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the
Ionian Gulf."
Strabo, 7.7.1
"Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus, had a particularly high opinion of his
powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans;
and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who
had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks,
and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse
before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he
about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily
and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the
Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against
them, when no wrong had been done him."
Ignoring Greek presence when studying ancient Anatolia is a habit of official Turkish view, and not using the word "Greek", has nothing to do with Anatolianism and Historical revisionism in Balkans. It can be seen in many Turkish views such as Turkish Nationalists' view of ancient Anatolia, also.
Akritas, I'd like to inform you correctly that Anatolianism is a more specific term and shouldn't be used for every anti-Greek attempts in Turkey.
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Posted: 23-May-2007 at 14:46
Akritas
Is not only the Anatolianism, that is a big part and not a minority. We have and the official Turkish Historical Renensionism
Are you being serious?
Anatolianism is so stupid I don't even give it the credit of being an "ideology" or what ever. It has no public, state or media support its a total and utter joke.
Akritas
1st Example
Names of İstanbul
Not one single word from the whom created the City. Not a single word for the Megarian King Byzanta, the man that founding the City
Not a single word in the formal name of the Turkish Istanbul...the Ottoma Constantinye
Umm can't you read? the article specifically mentions its about the "Names of Istanbul", not a detailed step-by-step history.
Throughout the Early Ages the name Byzantion, which forms the core of the former name of lstanbul, was used. After the city had been refounded in 330 AD by Constantine I (and this was towards the end of the Roman Empire), it was referred to as Deutera Rome, or the second Rome, and also as Nea Rome, which means New Rome. Then the name of its founder was taken as the basis, and the name Konstantinoupolis adopted, which was the source of all the western names for the city. The Germans refer to lstanbul as 'Konstantinopel', the French and the British as Constantinople and the Italians as Constantinopoli.
During the Turkish period the names 'Dersaadet' and 'Derliye' were used (and these were adjectival more than anything else),and in official correspondence and on coins the Turkish transcription of 'Konstantinoupolis', 'Konstantiniye' was used.
If you actually read what you post you'd save yourself some embarrasment.
We've gone over this matter many times, Istanbul has been called, Constantinople, Neu Roma, Micklegard, Islambol, Astana, Tsargard, Kushta and so on. There were many names in use at the same time.
Akritas
2nd Example
This famous temple is one of the seven wonders of the world, and is also known as Artemission. It was first built in lonian style during 560-550 B.C. by the Lydian King Kroisos. After being burnt down in 356 B.C. by a lunatic, it was rebuilt on the same foundations, but its height was extended by 3 m.
If its incorrect go and complain, did Lydian King Kroisos not order it to be built?
Besides, its not revisionism because it doesn't claim Turks built it.
What is "historical revisionism" is the idea some people like you have that Greeks are responsible for every building prior to the Romans and Turks in the region.
Akritas
Byzantine period start after 330 AD and of course not a sinlge word as about the Greek presence
More examples of revisionism by yourself which you actually believe to be a fact.
Byzantine Empire wasn't solely Greek, it had a Roman identity as it was an extension of the Roman Empire and was Hellenified.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Who are these Foca people? Ancient Turks?They were Greeks but....Foca Turks are suddenly created! Wow Ionia and all Greek colonies just became Turkish!Wow !If that
isnt reviosionism and denial of historical reality then what is!
Ignoring Greek presence when studying ancient Anatolia is a habit of official Turkish view, and not using the word "Greek", has nothing to do with Anatolianism and Historical revisionism in Balkans. It can be seen in many Turkish views such as Turkish Nationalists' view of ancient Anatolia, also.
I am just focus in Greek presence in order to be more accurate because my education regarding the rest of the Anatolian civilizations is not adequate and I dont want to fell in mistakes.
Originally posted by The Hidden Face
Akritas, I'd like to inform you correctly that Anatolianism is a more specific term and shouldn't be used for every anti-Greek attempts in Turkey.
Are you suggesting that people of Foca are Greeks who got told their Turks and just said, hey man you know what they're right
Please, you've got a brain use it.
Wow why dont you read the article first.It suggests that they werent greeks but Foca ? Turks . No mention of Greeks, and dont tell me its not going into details.Wow greeks really dont exist in turkish archaeology!Phokai a isnt mentioned for what it was nor are the ships the colonies or anything else.They are FOCA people.
The city of Phokaia was settled early in the 1st
millennium BC, probably by Aeolians and then Ionians and reached its
high point in the 5th century BC.Oh my god They were greeks! A greek city with greek ships and greek colonies!
Ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia. Greek colonists from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia[1] (the modern day Marseille, in France) in 600 BC, Emporion (the modern day Empries, in Catalonia) in 575 BC and Elea (modern day Velia, in (Campania, Italy) in 540 BC.
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Posted: 23-May-2007 at 17:09
Olvios
Wow why dont you read the article first.It suggests that they werent greeks but Foca ? Turks .
It does not suggest anywhere that ancient people of Foca were Turks, its just a figment of your paranoia.
No mention of Greeks, and dont tell me its not going into details.Wow greeks really dont exist in turkish archaeology!Phokai a isnt mentioned for what it was nor are the ships the colonies or anything else.They are FOCA people.
Do you suffer from an inferiority complex.
The article isn't about Nationalism of any sort, its some attempt to re-create an event from history.
They try to get people interested in this stuff cos the average Turk really doesn't care about Lydian, Lykian, Ionian etc history. It doesn't bother them in the slightest, they could be Greek, Roman or whatever, these old buildings are good scenery for the average person in the region. They have their own history, their own identity, their own hereos, they don't need to claim unrelated history.
Its a newspaper article man, not an essay.
Olvios
The city of Phokaia was settled early in the 1st millennium BC, probably by Aeolians and then Ionians and reached its high point in the 5th century BC.Oh my god They were greeks! A greek city with greek ships and greek colonies!
Great
Olvios
Greeks not Turks.
Another manifestation of your complex
Akritas
And Marseille was founded in 600 B.C. by Greeks of Phocea and not Turks that appeared 1500 years later.!!!!
You don't say
Oh and brush-up on your maths, Turks appeared in the Balkans a thousand years later, the Pechengs and other Turkic tribes were good pals with the Byzantines
Akritas
Buldog I suggest to read my first post that analyze the meaning of the Historical Revisionism-Negationism.
So Greece should stop calling Dolma, Dolmades, stop dancing the Zeybek, understand that Hacivat and Karagouniz isn't Greek and start giving a more accurate portrayel of the Ottoman period instead of creating hatred in the classroom referring to it as slavery worse than that of Black West Africans...
Nobody is perfect, first learn to criticise yourself then people will take you more serious when you point fingers at others.
Edited by Bulldog - 23-May-2007 at 17:11
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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