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Turkish Military gives a warning to the Parliament

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish Military gives a warning to the Parliament
    Posted: 06-May-2007 at 13:50
I dont see this as a bad problem. EU is biggest market who have fair rules and near to Turkey.(USA is a big market too, but to far away from us.)
 
I am not saying that we should not trade with the EU, and trade with Asia instead. We cannot do that now. I am saying that we should protect our key industries and services (not like citrus production) until we are able to trade with EU on equal terms. Right now we are not protecting anything, so we are not benefitting form the trade with the EU.
 
I agree, we are becoming workforce of EU for low products but You cannot wait to reach EU with one day. We need at least another 100 year of stable and big growth rate to reach them.
 
If we don't have any trade barriers, we can wait for 1000 years without getting anywhere. I already told you, all countries that managed to develop after the Europeans, did so by: 1. Protecting their key industries with trade barriers until they were able to compete in the world market. 2. Ignoring patents and copying all technological developments that originate from developed countries. 3. Having development plans guided by the government and investing in key sectors. Right now we are doing none of this. A fourth point would be having access to large markets, which we have.
 
Anyway, the main point is that no country of Turkey's size managed to develop by doing that we are doing right now. This simply never happened in history.  
 
I also cannot see why EU is reason for this. Even before EU, We are producing low-profit margin products.
 
This is not true, actually. After the Great Depression, the government consciously tried to industrialise the country, preparing five-year plans and founding many factories, which are still around. The 'Urgent Plan for Development' was abandoned after World War II, as Turkey received the Marshall Aid and joined the American sphere.
 
Our economy can grow with trade and most importantly foreign investment..
 
Economies can grow by trade only if they export more than they import. Foreign investment is useful only if it is for the benefit of Turkish people, which means that Turkey decides the rules.
 
EU is both good for investment and trade. Also I should add, our import-export gap problems does not happen because of EU, but because of China, Russia and Iran..(Countries we want to trade.)
 
No, we have a trade deficit with EU. We also have a deficit with China, Iran and Russia, but there's not much we can do about that (we buy oil/gas from them or industrial goods, which nobody can produce cheaper than China).
 
When we have not a big cake, It is unbenefical to argue about how to divide cake.
 
Turkey is a normal country in terms of wealth/income. It is not rich, but not poor either. 'First we should get rich by any means, and then we can devise a just wealth distribution' is just a way to trick the poor. Typical capitalist lie. Wealth justice is required now, period.
 
Also, I think for last there month, our import-export gap is decreased.
 
Decreased, yes, but we still have a large deficit. No country ever developed by having a trade deficit.
 
It is funny, every country in world want foreign capital. Only in Turkey(and some other not developed country), people suspect from foreign capital.. It is sad army stoped this process much..
 
Well, I think there are many excellent reasons to suspect foreign capital without any taxation/control. Such as the great Asian crisis, following Russian crisis, and following Turkish crises of 1999 and 2001- it was the greatest recession in Turkish history since the second world war. Third world economies like Turkey's are vulnerable to speculation, like Thailand's.
 
For now, They know Turkey have no rules.So they will not invest their hardly gained money. This is a cheap game If you ask me..
 
Foreign markets are volatile as well. Turkey can remove all taxes and labour laws, turning the country into a slave plantation like some other countries do, but then suddenly George Bush will shoot himself in the ass in his ranch or declare war on Buddhism, and the foreign investors will lose interest in Third World economies, and no foreign capital will arrive.
 
Also lets not forget, If demand for Turkey will increase, so Turkey good will become more expensive.(Be sure Walmart have not su much money.
 
Walmart was just one example, to put things in scale. My point is the more you integrate Turkey to the world economy, the less control you have over your own economy.  
 
I find this thing a little nationalist. Yes, We sell our banks and factories. So what is problem? nationality of ownership of these banks and factories?
 
You are right. This is the difference between socialists and the kemalists who oppose globalisation. For them (the military and the CHP) as long as Turkish capital buys public assets, everything is OK. In fact they sell things to OYAK, a previlaged corporation related to the military. Socialists say these assets belong to the people, so they should not be privatised.
 
what is difference between a german and turk, who own a factory inside Turkey. (Except, Turks dont pay their tax.)
 
In fact, AKP removed some taxes for foreign investors, so that now a Turkish investor pays more tax than a foreign one to invest in Turkey (unless he knows some high ranking AKP member, of course).
 
Our problem is lack of capital. Who will invest Turkey, If we refuse globalisation.. Turkey should designate and support some key sectors. That is true, but globalization is not a problem for this.
 
Even if your market is completely open, you can't compete in the globalised market. Why? Because some other country will be willing and able to exploit it's population more, and investors will go there. AKP are neo-liberal ass kissers, but even they cannot dare to follow IMF's advice to scrap minimum wage in Turkey. Because they know that they can't, Turkish workers won't allow it. China can do it now by oppressing the workers, but not Turkey. Soon, China won't be able to do that either.
 
So Turkey should set up laws and taxes for foreign investors, and accept those who are still willing to invest. Those who are willing to invest only when they don't pay any taxes are likely to vanish in the first sign of a crisis anyway. That kind of investment damages more than it builds, as we know from previous crises.
 
Do you want expensive and unqualified good? If we resist globalisation, We will just have this.
 
Most people don't have much goods anyway. This exact mentality; 'opening markets in order to keep prices down' was a major reason why the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Mercantalist Europeans were protecting their markets and supporting their production industries, while our Emperors were giving them special benefits in order to boost trade so that they have a revenue from customs tax and the people can buy goods cheaply and in abundance and be happy...
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 14:11
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.

Your source for this garbage (which you call proof), Aksiyon magazine, belongs to Fethullah Gulen. A religious leader who lives in the US. Responsible for a lot of anti-communist propaganda, for obvious reasons.
 
For those who cannot read English, this says that after Lenin rejected the Turkish plea for help (which is lie, as I wrote above Halil Pasa was immediately supplied with gold and escorted to Turkey by the Red Army, who fought the Armenians on the way), president of Bukhara Republic (note that Bulldog's imaginary 'Turkeston Repobuc' now suddenly became Bukhara republic) decided to send help. And they sent 100 MILLION gold pieces (like 10 TIMES the assets of Ottomans' greatest bank at the time) from TIMUR's TREASURE on elephants. (I added the elephants part). On the way they were attacked by the 40 thieves, but saved by Ali Baba, luckily (OK, I made this up as well). Nevertheless evil Lenin (head of the Soviet Union) took 90 millions and gave the remaining 10 million to Turkey. But Turkish state saved this from the people and told them this is Soviet help.
 
Ridiculous story overall. 
 
There was some help from Turkestan but no 100 million gold pieces, that is absolutely ridiculous. Soviet help to Turkey was about 20 millions, started before they won the civil war, and gained control of Turkestan, and also included  large amounts of weapons and ammunition, which the fabricated article does not mention.
 
In gratitude Ataturk erected statues of Soviet Generals in Istanbul's primary square.
 
Wake up and open your eyes, your just re-telling old soviet empire fables.
 
Timur's treasure, now that is some fable.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 16:12
Beylerbeyi
Your source for this garbage (which you call proof), Aksiyon magazine, belongs to Fethullah Gulen. A religious leader who lives in the US. Responsible for a lot of anti-communist propaganda, for obvious reasons.
 
 
Would you listen to yourself, you sound exactly like the people you think your so different from, you like calling anybody who differs with your views a "fascist", take a look in the mirror you may get a shock when you realise what you have become...
 
If you actually took any time to read the post you would realise that the article is about the documentary which was broadcasted on "Trt". Turkish state telecommunications.
 
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
 
 
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
Yönetmen: Abdulhamit Avşar, Figen Baranoğlu
Yapımcı: Can Soysal, Abdulhamit Avşar
TRT, milli mücadelenin pek bilinmeyen, ortaya konulmamış bir cephesini, Anadolu Türkleri’nin en zor zamanlarında onların yardımına koşan Orta Asya Türkleri’nin öyküsünü, “Kurtuluş Savaşı’nda Türkistanlılar” adlı belgeselle ekrana getiriyor.

30 aya yakın bir araştırma ve çekim sonrası hazırlanan belgesel için, ‘Türkistanlı ‘Kuvay-i Milliye’cilerin yakınları tespit edilerek 47 kişi ile yüz yüze görüşüldü.

Konunun uzmanı 15’e yakın akademisyen ve yerel tarih araştırmacısının bilgilerine başvuruldu. ‘TBMM Kütüphanesi’, ‘Milli Kütüphane’ ve ‘Atatürk Kütüphanesi’ başta olmak üzere, bir çok kuruluş ve kişinin özel arşivlerinden istifade edildi.

‘Hakimiyeti Milliye’, ‘Açıksöz’, ‘İkdam’ gibi dönemin önde gelen gazeteleri tarandı, TBMM tutanakları incelendi. Adana, İstanbul, Kastamonu, Tarsus, Mersin, Ankara, Osmaniye, Gaziantep, Kayseri, Sivas, İzmir, Konya, Kırıkkale, Antalya ve Isparta şehirlerinde çekimler yapıldı. Bu çekimler sırasında 10 bin km. den fazla yol katedildi. Böylece günümüze de ışık tutabilecek ve bugün kurulmak istenen ilişkilerin tarihi zeminini güçlendirecek “Kurtuluş Savaşı’nda Türkistanlılar” adlı 3 bölümlük belgesel ortaya çıktı.

Yapımını Can Soysal ve Abdulhamit Avşar, yönetimini Abdulhamit Avşar ve Figen Baranoğlu’nun üstlendiği belgeselin “Kuvay- i Milliyeci Türkistanlılar” adlı ikinci bölümünde, bir çoğu Birinci Dünya Savaşı’nda gönüllü olarak Osmanlı ordusu saflarında savaşa katılan ve ordu ile birlikte Anadolu’ya gelen Türkistanlıların Çukurova Milli Mücadelesi ve Antep Savunması’na katılış öykülerine yer veriliyor.

O dönem Milli Mücadele’ye katılan bir çok ‘Kuvay- i Milliye’cinin birinci derece yakınları ile yüz yüze görüşme, olayların geçtiği yerlerde çekimler yapma ve dönemin belgelerine dayanarak titiz bir çalışmayla hazırlanan belgeselde, bölgedeki Milli Mücadele’nin bir çok bilinmeyen yönü gözler önüne seriliyor. Çukurova Milli Mücadelesi’nin önemli isimlerinden Hacı Yoldaş ile Antep Savunması’nda Bombacı Mehmet Sait’in örnek mücadelelerine ışık tutuluyor.

Daha sonra ise Batı cephesinde savaşan Türkistanlılara değiniliyor.

 
 
 
Oh and why lie?
 
 
 
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.
 
The support given by Turkistan to the Independance struggle was not limited to popular public support and a few regiments who joined the movement. Unfortunately, what is commongly known as the "Russian" aid, actually came from the "Bukhara Republic", who dispatched 100 million golden rubble. This help which came at the most critical of times, gave a financial and moral boost to the newly formed Ankara Government. The Ankara envoy went to Moscow to raise help, when Lenin announced that they could not help them, the president of the Buhara Republic Osman Bey Kocaoglu intervined. He went back to Bukhara and put forward his request to the parliment. The parliment agreed to send 100 million rubble from Timur's Treasurey to Turkey.  The capital was from Tashkent via railway via Moscow under protection of Russia. Moscow allowed 11 million rubble to be sent from 1920-1922 in installments and kept the rest in her own treasury. When the Bukhara Republic was occupied by Russia Ataturk gave refuge to the leaders of the Republic and paid their wages in Turkey.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Ridiculous story overall. 
 
I'll tell you what is ridiculous, still believing age old Soviet propoganda that it was them who gave this financial aid and that Turkistan Turks had absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
 
 
TÜRKİSTAN TÜRKLERİNİN KURTULUŞ SAVAŞI'NA VE CUMHURİYET'E KATKILARI

Abdulvahap KARA
 
Kurtuluş Savaşı'na gerçek anlamda para desteği, 100 milyon altın ruble gibi bir meblağı verme çabası Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nden gelmiştir. 1873'ten Sovyet hükümeti tarafından istiklalinin tanındığı 1918 yılına dek Çarlık Rusyasına bağlı, yarı müstakil devlet konumunda olan Buhara o dönemde Türkistan'ın en zengin Hanlığı idi. Ticari faaliyetler sayesinde Buhara Hanlığı büyük bir zenginliğe ve altın rezervine sahip olmuştu [25] . Bu zenginlik sayesinde Buhara emiri Petersburg'da büyükçe cami yaptırabilmiştir [26] . Kızıl Ordu tarafından 2 Eylül 1920'de yıkılan Buhara Hanlığı'nın yerine 6 Ekim 1920'de Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti ilan edilmesinden [27] sonra, Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Osman Kocaoğlu başkanlığındaki temsilcileri Moskova'ya giderek Lenin ile görüşme yaparlar.

Bu görüşmede Buhara heyeti, Lenin'e Türkiye için 100 milyon altın ruble yardım vermeyi taahhüt ederler. Heyet Buhara'ya döndükten sonra, bu konu parlamentoda oylanır ve Türkiye'ye yardım tek itiraz sesi yükselmeden oy birliği ile kabul edilir. Vaat edilen 100 milyon altın da en kısa zaman zarfında Moskova'ya ulaştırılır [28] . Bu teslimat konusunda elimizde herhangi vesika yoktur. Ancak Türkistan'da o devrin olaylarını yaşamış şahsiyetlerden ve Türkistan tarihi mütehassısı Z. V. Togan [29] ve Türkistan'daki esir Osmanlı subaylarından Raci Çakıröz [30] bu yardımın yapıldığını teyit etmektedir. Ne yazık ki bu yardım hedefine ulaşmamıştır. Sovyetlerin Türkiye'ye Eylül 1920 ile Mayıs 1922 tarihleri arasında yaptığı nakdi yardımlar da Buhara Cumhuriyeti'nin teslim ettiği 100 milyon rublenin çok altında, 11 milyon ruble civarındadır [31] .
 
[25] Stephane A. Dudoignon, “Orta Asya'da Siyasal Değişmeler ve Tarihyazımı, Tacikistan ve Özibekistan 1987-1993”, Unutkan Tarih Sovyet Sonrası Türkdilli Alan , (Haz. Semih Vaner), İstanbul 1997, s. 115.
[26] Kurat, s. 425.
[27] Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti 19 Eylül 1924'te Moskova'ya muhalif güçler temizlenerek Buhara Sosyalist Cumhuriyeti ilan edilinceye kadar, milli güçler tarafından Moskova'dan bağımsız bir şekilde idare edildi. Bu konuda bkz. İ. Yarkın, “Buhara Hanlığı'nın Sovyet Rusya Tarafından Ortadan Kaldırılması ve Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Kuruluşu”, Türk Kültürü , sayı 76, Ankara, Şubat 1969, s. 297-303; B. Hayit, Türkistan Rusya ile Çin arasında , s. 264.
[28] Yakın Tarihimiz , 3 Mayıs 1962, Cilt I, sayı 10, s. 292-293; N. Öktem, “Osman Kocaoğlu'nun Ardından”, Türk Kültürü , Eylül 1968, sayı 71, s. 878; M. Saray, Milli Mücadele Yıllarında Atatürk'ün Sovyet Politikası , İstanbul, 1984, s. 55-57.
[29] Z. V. Togan, Hatıralar , İstanbul, 1969, s. 363.
[30] T. Kocaoğlu, “Türkistan'da Türk Subayları (1914-1923)”, Türk Dünyası Tarih Dergisi , Ağustos 1987, sayı 8, s. 47.
[31] Saray, s. 57.
 
 
 
They gave financial and millitary aid, its a shame you deny this, infact I wouldn't be suprised if you accused them and everyone else of some wild anti-communist conspiracy.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Soviet help to Turkey was about 20 million
 
The documentary explains this, it was 11 million taken out of the 100 million given by Turkistan given in installments between 1920-22.
 
Or is TrT now also a tool of Gulen...
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 18:30
Central Asia had no arm industry, as Beylerbeyi mentioned before.

Even our 'official' historians admit that Turkey had good relations with Soviets during the independence war.

If I recall correctly, you were defending the idea of Turanism. And everybody knows that you are a Turk in British disguise.

Drop the act.

Edited by Feanor - 06-May-2007 at 18:32
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 19:25

Its not the supply of "arms" that is being discussed, its the financial aid with which arms and other supplies were bought, this is undeniable its on record.

Oh and didn't it ever occur to you that somebody can be Brittish by right and have another ethnicity. You really have issues with debating, typically instead of discussing, if views differ to yours you start chidish insults...

 

 
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 20:53
Bulldog,
 
as Feanor writes, even official Turkish history does not deny Soviet help. Only a handful of panislamist and turanist cranks do. Since you are a google nationalist, it is understandable that you have a distorted view of things.  
 
In fact, even your delusional sources don't deny Soviet help. Because they say the Soviets gave 11 millions, from a total 500 millions from the Azteks' lost treasure (sorry I got carried again). It is known that Soviet aid was around 20 millions in total. Where's the rest?
 
Also, Soviets sent a lot of weapons (I'm writing this for the third time or so). So far your only reply to this was 'the discussion is not about weapons'. Rather pathetic.
 
And we are yet to hear why there are statues of Soviet generals Furunze and Voroshilov behind Ataturk and Inonu, in the Republic monument in Taksim square? Let me guess, it is a communist myth, they are actually Timur and Genghis Khan?
 
Anyway, if you were able to read Turkish, you would have seen that (relatively) smart turanists or whatever anti-soviet group you are part of, including Turkish official history (written from a pro-American anti-Soviet point of view) after World War 2, actually don't deny Soviet help but rather say 'Soviets helped us not because they like us but because they did not want their enemies the Western powers in Turkey, controlling the straits'. 
Man, this is why I don't like google nationalists, one has to teach them their own party lines...
 
I'll translate your new article (written by a panturkist- what a surprise), for you, since you obviously don't understand what it says:
 
'Kızıl Ordu tarafından 2 Eylül 1920'de yıkılan Buhara Hanlığı'nın yerine 6 Ekim 1920'de Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti ilan edilmesinden [27] sonra, Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Osman Kocaoğlu başkanlığındaki temsilcileri Moskova'ya giderek Lenin ile görüşme yaparlar. '
 
He writes that the Bukharan People's Republic (changed the name again), was founded AFTER THE RED ARMY ENTERED BUKHARA ON 2 OCTOBER 1920. As I wrote before Ataturk wrote to Lenin on APRIL 1920 (as mentioned in 'Nutuk'. Do you know what 'Nutuk' is?). And Lenin sent help with Halil Pasa on 1 JULY 1920. Before Bukharan People's Republic was declared.
 
Bu görüşmede Buhara heyeti, Lenin'e Türkiye için 100 milyon altın ruble yardım vermeyi taahhüt ederler. Heyet Buhara'ya döndükten sonra, bu konu parlamentoda oylanır ve Türkiye'ye yardım tek itiraz sesi yükselmeden oy birliği ile kabul edilir. Vaat edilen 100 milyon altın da en kısa zaman zarfında Moskova'ya ulaştırılır [28] .
 
Here he claims that Bukharan Republic sent 100 million golden rubles to Moscow. His sources for this fantastic claim are all dodgy Turkish books and turanist journals, oldest of which is dated 1962.
 
Bu teslimat konusunda elimizde herhangi vesika yoktur. Ancak Türkistan'da o devrin olaylarını yaşamış şahsiyetlerden ve Türkistan tarihi mütehassısı Z. V. Togan [29] ve Türkistan'daki esir Osmanlı subaylarından Raci Çakıröz [30] bu yardımın yapıldığını teyit etmektedir.
  
 
This is what he writes: 'WE DON'T HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS TO PROVE THIS TRANSFER TOOK PLACE'. And continues 'but Z.V.Togan (a famous turanist) and another guy who was there said it happened (he takes this claim from a turanist magazine)'.
 
Wow, really solid proof there. So the small, war torn Bukharan People's Republic (which he claims was independent even though it was founded by the Red Army!) gave the Soviets 10 times the amount of the assets of Ottoman Empire's largest bank, without any documentation whatsoever, but since two turanist guys said it happened, it must be true. I am sure you convinced everybody now.
 
Ne yazık ki bu yardım hedefine ulaşmamıştır. Sovyetlerin Türkiye'ye Eylül 1920 ile Mayıs 1922 tarihleri arasında yaptığı nakdi yardımlar da Buhara Cumhuriyeti'nin teslim ettiği 100 milyon rublenin çok altında, 11 milyon ruble civarındadır [31] .
 
Then he says 'unfortunately this help didn't reach its destination. Soviets gave Turkey only 11 million rubles out of the 100, between September 1920 and May 1922'. Again no mention of financial help before September 1920 or help in equipment. 
 
But I should say that your story got slightly less ridiculous. At least this guy doesn't say that the gold came from Timur's treasure. He improved the quality of the lie there. I think in the next version of the lie they should reduce the 100 million a little.
 
They gave financial and millitary aid, its a shame you deny this, infact I wouldn't be suprised if you accused them and everyone else of some wild anti-communist conspiracy.
 
Hmm, I think you also have a problem with understanding English, even though it is your native language; I already wrote in the previous message that some help came from Turkestan. What we are laughing at is your 'Soviets sent no help it all came from Turkestan' claims. You are trying to put words into my mouth here ('anti-communist conspiracy' etc.) but you are the one who is putting forward wild evil communist conspiracy theories, calling historical facts 'myths'.
 
Or is TrT now also a tool of Gulen...
 
Yeah, you saw it on TV, so it must be true... Hey it is also on the internet! Now that makes this undisputable fact... You Google nationalist, just the fact that you believe what Turkish state TV says proves that you are not Turkish, and will never be.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:57

I think there is nothing more to write here.

I will go now, thanks everyone. Maybe I'll come again later when something important/interesting happens.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 09:40
He lives!
Welcome back, if indeed it is a coming-back :)
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 17:17
go bulldogg go, keep him here for a moment LOL
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 18:25
Beylerbeyi
as Feanor writes, even official Turkish history does not deny Soviet help. Only a handful of panislamist and turanist cranks do. Since you are a google nationalist, it is understandable that you have a distorted view of things.  
 
So TRT, is a panIslamist and turanist crank show isit? Turkish state media made a 13 part documentary on this issue, I really suggest you watch it and read up on it.
 
Soviets didn't give direct help, there merely allowed the funds raised by Turkistan and also by other muslim regions to be transported safely via Moscow on their railway.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
In fact, even your delusional sources don't deny Soviet help. Because they say the Soviets gave 11 millions
 
Yes, that's what is written, if you became a little more open-minded and actually read the articles you would realise this. The money was raised by Turkistan and other muslim regions, Lenin agreed that it could be sent via the Russian railway safely. However, Moscow took 90% and just dispatch 11 million.
 
Its not suprising, I don't know why your so shocked and outraged.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Also, Soviets sent a lot of weapons
 
Most weapons used in the Independance War were those smuggled out of Istanbul. Soviets also helped and there were also thousands of Turkistan and other muslims who came to what is today Turkiye to help in the war.
 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
As I wrote before Ataturk wrote to Lenin on APRIL 1920 (as mentioned in 'Nutuk'. Do you know what 'Nutuk' is?). And Lenin sent help with Halil Pasa on 1 JULY 1920.
 
Nope, Lenin did not promise anything, this is adressed in the documentary.
 
 
Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir.
 
Its a shame you would like to wipe Osman Kocaoglu Bey out of the history books...
 
 
Beylerbeyi
But I should say that your story got slightly less ridiculous. At least this guy doesn't say that the gold came from Timur's treasure. 
 
Its the name of the treasury, no need for conspiracies. 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
 I already wrote in the previous message that some help came from Turkestan.
What we are laughing at is your 'Soviets sent no help it all came from Turkestan' claims. 
 
The Soviets allowed safe-passage of the aid as is written in the article and explained in the documentary, so they helped in this account.
 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
just the fact that you believe what Turkish state TV says proves that you are not Turkish, and will never be.
 
So I should trust "you" over TRT LOL Talk about blowing your own trumpet...


Edited by Bulldog - 07-May-2007 at 18:27
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 03:29
 
Right now we are not protecting anything, so we are not benefitting form the trade with the EU.
 
are you aware of ratios? Sure, we have problem with import-export rate.(Reason is generally large demand for both consumption and investment goods.)
 
Now, Lets look at first 10 country, Turkey exported and imported.
 
 2007 october november december..
 
Export..
 
1- Almanya 2,709,919 11.7
2- İngiltere 1,810,306 7.8
3- İtalya 1,761,723 7.6
4- Fransa 1,310,708 5.7
5- İspanya 1,052,340 4.6
6- Rusya Federasyonu 957,748 4.1
7- Romanya 810,360 3.5
8- A.B.D. 952,896 4.1
9- B.A.E. 692,098 3.0
10- Hollanda 649,552 2.8
 
Import ....
 
1- Rusya Federasyonu 4,964,610 14.3
2- Almanya 3,432,639 9.9
3- Çin 2,598,988 7.5
4- İtalya 2,026,393 5.8
5- A.B.D. 1,656,214 4.8
6- Fransa 1,671,650 4.8
7- İngiltere 1,267,888 3.6
8- İran 1,401,432 4.0
9- Ukrayna 1,017,560 2.9
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 03:32
GENİŞ EKONOMİK GRUPLARIN SINIFLAMASINA (GEGS) GÖRE İTHALAT
Milyon Dolar
  YILLIK
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
YATIRIM MALLARI 11,365 6,940 8,400 11,326 17,397 20,363 23,145
Yatırım malları-(Ulaşım araçları hariç) 9,264 5,882 7,571 9,823 13,494 17,120 19,487
Sanayii ve taşımacılıkta kullanılan araçlar 2,101 1,058 828 1,503 3,904 3,243 3,658
ARA MALLARI 36,010 30,301 37,656 49,735 67,549 81,868 98,593
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmemiş gıda maddeleri 2,784 2,037 2,957 4,290 5,776 6,027 7,182
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmiş gıda maddeleri 16,099 13,884 18,032 24,105 33,407 39,549 46,055
İşlenmemiş madeni yakıtlar ve yağlar 4,835 4,181 4,957 5,718 7,329 14,699 19,754
Yatırım mallarının aksam ve parçaları 3,944 3,161 4,168 4,840 6,432 6,747 7,559
Taşıt araçlarının aksam ve parçaları 3,160 2,468 2,704 3,942 6,544 7,427 8,609
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmemiş diğer maddeler 519 301 532 957 944 866 772
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmiş diğer maddeler 333 299 400 525 624 762 943
İşlenmiş madeni yakıtlar ve yağlar 4,336 3,969 3,906 5,356 6,492 5,791 7,720
TÜKETİM MALLARI 6,928 3,813 4,898 7,813 12,100 13,975 16,010
Binek otomobilleri 2,596 587 813 2,220 4,214 4,296 4,255
Dayanıklı tüketim malları 1,126 632 687 917 1,440 1,839 2,267
Yarı dayanıklı tüketim malları 932 723 869 1,265 1,911 2,506 3,239
Dayanıksız tüketim malları 1,371 1,317 1,739 2,355 3,184 3,415 3,711
İşlenmemiş gıda maddeleri 178 115 127 119 149 270 315
İşlenmiş gıda maddeleri 317 239 300 404 528 645 750
Benzin  344 166 329 494 556 712 1,062
Sanayiide kullanılmayan taşıt araçları 66 35 34 39 119 292 411
DİĞERLERİ 199 344 600 466 493 567 543
TOPLAM 54,503 41,399 51,554 69,340 97,540 116,774 138,290
 
Lets look at what are we importing. As we see, We are importing more investment good than consumption good.
 
I dont see, how can we harm from importing investment goods..
 
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 05:09
ÜLKE GRUPLARINA GÖRE İHRACAT
       
  OCAK - MART
2006 2007 % DAĞ.
GENEL İHRACAT TOPLAMI 18,597 23,101 100.0
A- AVRUPA BİRLİĞİ ÜLKELERİ (27) 10,672 13,381 57.9
B- TÜRKİYE SERBEST BÖLGELERİ 659 659 2.9
C- DİĞER ÜLKELER 7,266 9,060 39.2
1- DİĞER AVRUPA 1,579 2,228 9.6
2- AFRİKA 918 1,152 5.0
      Kuzey Afrika 588 722 3.1
      Diğer Afrika 330 430 1.9
3- AMERİKA 1,632 1,270 5.5
      Kuzey Amerika 1,496 1,022 4.4
      Orta Amerika ve Karayip 68 122 0.5
      Güney Amerika 69 125 0.5
4- ASYA 3,033 4,238 18.3
      Yakın ve Ortadoğu 2,264 3,160 13.7
      Diğer Asya 769 1,078 4.7
5- AVUSTRALYA VE YENİ ZELANDA 57 81 0.4
6- DİĞER ÜLKE ve BÖLGELER 46 91 0.4
 
 
 
ÜLKE GRUPLARINA GÖRE İTHALAT
 
  OCAK - MART
2006 2007 % DAĞ. 
GENEL İTHALAT TOPLAMI 29,543 34,752 100.0
A- AB (27) 12,895 14,379 41.4
B- TÜRKİYE SERBEST BÖLGELERİ 178 264 0.8
C- DİĞER ÜLKELER 16,470 20,109 57.9
1- DİĞER AVRUPA 5,254 7,067 20.3
2- AFRİKA 1,767 1,480 4.3
      Kuzey Afrika 1,235 818 2.4
      Diğer Afrika 532 663 1.9
3- AMERİKA 1,864 2,400 6.9
      Kuzey Amerika 1,399 1,789 5.1
      Orta Amerika ve Karayip 76 82 0.2
      Güney Amerika 390 530 1.5
4- ASYA 7,513 9,061 26.1
      Yakın ve Ortadoğu 1,917 2,331 6.7
      Diğer Asya 5,595 6,730 19.4
5- AVUSTRALYA VE YENİ ZELANDA 44 73 0.2
6- DİĞER ÜLKE VE BÖLGELER 29 28 0.1
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 05:14
I think this is enough to see harm of EU.Confused
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 07:39
Bulldog is trolling again! Angry Angry
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:21
In order to understand the political chaos in Turkey, just see how Turkish members are arguing.(I am jokingWink)
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:49

That sarcasm doesn't make any sense, Spartakus. Confused Irrelevant.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:54

Is it?In the last 2 webpages Turkish members are the only ones who argue against each other.Wink



Edited by Spartakus - 10-May-2007 at 13:55
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:58
If you had read them you would probably have realized that those are totally off-topic. Confused
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2007 at 17:15
Dude,i am joking. Does it matter whether their talk seriously or not?No.Unhappy
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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