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Rasicms Orgin?

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  Quote Malik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rasicms Orgin?
    Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 08:14
Does anybody know racisms true orgin?To my knowledge, one of the earliest forms of racism involved the caste systems of India.I just wanted to see if anybody knew of any earlier forms of racism within a certain civilization?

*I'm unable to edit the title Cry*


Edited by Malik - 28-Apr-2007 at 08:22
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 10:46

Racism in general is more of a 19th century invention than anything. Previous periods did not put as much emphasis on  the superiority of one color over another. Once European powers began to domminate, their sciences too began to attempt to figure out the reasons behind such success. Their theory, the Anglo-Germanic north of Europe was supperior to everyone else. The term white originally applied mostly to those of Germanic, Protestant extraction.

 
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 11:12
Originally posted by es_bih

Racism in general is more of a 19th century invention than anything. Previous periods did not put as much emphasis on  the superiority of one color over another. Once European powers began to domminate, their sciences too began to attempt to figure out the reasons behind such success. Their theory, the Anglo-Germanic north of Europe was supperior to everyone else. The term white originally applied mostly to those of Germanic, Protestant extraction.

 
I totally disagree. Racism has always been there one way or another. We are better then them. What you talk about is just one instance of it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 11:21

Racism has always existed and by all the people around the world. In Africa, for instance, we could remember Rwanda, and also the discrimination of Pygmes and Khoisans by Bantues, for example.

I don't believe the reason is that people believe "we are better than them" at all. The reason is because many believe: "we look better than them". That's where all racism starts
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 12:02
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by es_bih

Racism in general is more of a 19th century invention than anything. Previous periods did not put as much emphasis on  the superiority of one color over another. Once European powers began to domminate, their sciences too began to attempt to figure out the reasons behind such success. Their theory, the Anglo-Germanic north of Europe was supperior to everyone else. The term white originally applied mostly to those of Germanic, Protestant extraction.

 
I totally disagree. Racism has always been there one way or another. We are better then them. What you talk about is just one instance of it.
 
Look at Rome or Persia, they intergrated many peoples, the Byzantine/Eastern Romans as well. I said actually that racism existed, however never to such a degree as during the late 19th century. That is when it was systemized and implemented into society the most. It is out of that that apartheid, and segregation come out of not previous ages.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 14:24
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by es_bih

Racism in general is more of a 19th century invention than anything. Previous periods did not put as much emphasis on  the superiority of one color over another. Once European powers began to domminate, their sciences too began to attempt to figure out the reasons behind such success. Their theory, the Anglo-Germanic north of Europe was supperior to everyone else. The term white originally applied mostly to those of Germanic, Protestant extraction.

 
I totally disagree. Racism has always been there one way or another. We are better then them. What you talk about is just one instance of it.
 
Look at Rome or Persia, they intergrated many peoples, the Byzantine/Eastern Romans as well. I said actually that racism existed, however never to such a degree as during the late 19th century. That is when it was systemized and implemented into society the most. It is out of that that apartheid, and segregation come out of not previous ages.
 
Those who look find. For example, who was allowed to be Spartiates and not, to connect to a current topic?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 01:32
There are documented cases in Herodotus of two brothers gaining Spartan citizenship.
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  Quote DesertHistorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 02:17
I do not know if a date can be put on the true origins of racism. I will say that racism as existed at least long as slavery has, simply because you would not enslave anyone that you did not think was inferior to you in some way(s).
 
The modern version of racism has pretty much the same issues. It exists in every major culture, and probably in the minor cultures as well.
 
Humans always look at differences to separate themselves from one another, and similarities to unify with one another.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Malik

Does anybody know racisms true orgin?To my knowledge, one of the earliest forms of racism involved the caste systems of India.I just wanted to see if anybody knew of any earlier forms of racism within a certain civilization?

*I'm unable to edit the title Cry*
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 02:35
Racism exist since a long time. Forms of it has existed during all human history, although the degree has vary quite a lot. Forms of racism are even clear in the animal kingdom where some animals of the same species don't mix because a small phenotypical detail.
 
Certain civilizations and period of times have streessed racism more than others, thought. No doubt about it.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 05:55
Originally posted by es_bih

There are documented cases in Herodotus of two brothers gaining Spartan citizenship.
 
A case of two brothers? Then we have the exception to confirm the rule. Seriously, apartheid and racism has always existed, it's not a 19th century invention.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 10:39
I rather suspect the Cro-Magnons separated themselves pretty severely from the Neanderthals.
 
Chimps and baboons are racist.
 
Distrust/dislike of the outsider is a mammalian trait, not just a human one.
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 29-Apr-2007 at 10:40
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:07
I agree with Es_Bih
 
While racism probobly always existed in various forms, racism as we think of it was a 18-19th century invention. The growth of European empires and colonising Africa had quite alot to do with it as the Pope justified slavery and colonising due to Black people being less intellegent than white and made to work for white peoples. Also the concept of "civillising", believing that your culture is civillised while different cultures are uncivillised and that this somehow means you have the right to go take their land and tell them how to live their lives. In addition to this, scientific racism which used "social darwinism" didn't help matters, it was used as an excuse to "scientifically" proove the superiority of Northern Europeans, "survival of the fittest" and Comte's ideologies helped push this further.
 
Prior to this age, race/ethnic wasn't of much importance, religion was far more important and gave people their identity.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 14:25
I am not sure how we could talk about this. I mean, there has been racism long before Indians introduced their caste system. Even in Ice Age and even before that, people fought each other because of their different looks, color and such. I think ever since the human beings have conscience and emotions, they have some form of racism, but if we are talking about the earliest recorded act of racism... I think either Jewish slavery in Egypt is oldest, but I don't exactly know for sure. Enlighten me.
     
   
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 15:00
We are obviously talking about two different things over here.

On the one hand xenophobia which can be defined as the reject of the other because considered different. Take for instance the Arabian Nights: the way the black are described in these tales is just horrendous, they are described as rapists, salvage criminimals and what's not. The same applies to other groups not differenciated by their skin colour such as the Bedouins.

The term racism on the other hand is that pseudo-scientific vision of a human spiecies divided into usually three races one being superior to the others. The difference here is of course the pseudo-scientific rationale offered by people like Chamberlain and Gobineau. But:
1) It would be wrong to limit the racist vision of the world to a simple colour-centric process as proves the case of the 'white' Jews considered by some as being at the bottom of hierarchy.
2) Pseudo-rational narrative for the superiority of one group over the other happened way before the 19th century. In the 18th century they had a climatic theory (the climate was said to affect the cerebral functions). Even before the source of all knowledge the church (for instance the famous Salamanca university) had given explanations for the superiority of the white christian male. But I'd bet that this was not a simply European stuff and that most societies had a similar  system of legitimization of their superiority.

The question should then be why are humans racist in the first place? In my opinion it is a natural reaction for individuals and in particular political elites.
For individuals what ever is unknown and exterior to the group represents a potential danger (why are we afraid in the dark?). The logical answer is reject, violence and their psychological equivalent: hate.
This is even more true for political elites who have anything to fear from a transformation of the status quo. It is thus their interest to induce the rest of the population to fear and hate the strangers.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 22:31
Originally posted by DesertHistorian

I do not know if a date can be put on the true origins of racism. I will say that racism as existed at least long as slavery has, simply because you would not enslave anyone that you did not think was inferior to you in some way(s).
 
That point is not valid. There are many civilizations that enslaved their own members, citizens, due to economical and cultural factors. Such an example would be the Code of Hamurabi, and other law codes that allow slavery of a particular society's members upon some conditions. Slavery always existed. However, tying slavery and racism together before the rise of the Atlantic slave trade is a hard thing to do. There are far too many accounts of non-"race" based slavery to counter that point. Slavery in most cases existed to provide labor, in case of POWs, economic conditions, legal factors, etc... These slaves were not enslaved because they looks a certain type, they were enslaved because they were indebted, because they lost a war, and various other non-"race" based reasons. Furthermore, the ones that had been freed could be citizens as is case in Rome, and become quiet influential and wealthy.
 
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 10:25
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

I agree with Es_Bih
 
While racism probobly always existed in various forms, racism as we think of it was a 18-19th century invention.
 
Racism as you think of it, possibly.
 
 
 
The growth of European empires and colonising Africa had quite alot to do with it as the Pope justified slavery and colonising due to Black people being less intellegent than white and made to work for white peoples.
The early Popes saw nothing wrong with enslavement of white peoples. Nor (as someone pointed out) did that mean they saw the enslaved peoples as inferior.
 
Remember Gregory the Great in the slave market: 'Non Angli, sed Angeli'.
 
 Also the concept of "civillising", believing that your culture is civillised while different cultures are uncivillised and that this somehow means you have the right to go take their land and tell them how to live their lives. In addition to this, scientific racism which used "social darwinism" didn't help matters, it was used as an excuse to "scientifically" proove the superiority of Northern Europeans, "survival of the fittest" and Comte's ideologies helped push this further.
 
Prior to this age, race/ethnic wasn't of much importance, religion was far more important and gave people their identity.
 
Not true at all. Race/ethnicity was important in Chinese culture, Japanese, Indian, ancient Greek...even in pre-Conquest Mesoamerica, just as it is important in places like Ruanda and Burundi now. 
 
19th century racist doctrines originated of course in the 19th century. That's why they are referred to as 19th century doctrines.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2007 at 17:37
Originally posted by pinguin

Racism has always existed and by all the people around the world. In Africa, for instance, we could remember Rwanda, and also the discrimination of Pygmes and Khoisans by Bantues, for example.

I don't believe the reason is that people believe "we are better than them" at all. The reason is because many believe: "we look better than them". That's where all racism starts
 
Pinguin


Please show me some references to this statement Pinguin.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2007 at 09:01
Racism as we think of it is a nineteenth century thing. But as said above Xenophobia is not. The Romans were pretty clear about who was superior and who was not. But if you were a Roman by culture then it was okay. Thus you had an Arab (Philip) and three Africans as Emperors.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2007 at 09:12
 
Originally posted by Sparten

Racism as we think of it is a nineteenth century thing.
Not as I think of it.
But as said above Xenophobia is not. The Romans were pretty clear about who was superior and who was not. But if you were a Roman by culture then it was okay. Thus you had an Arab (Philip) and three Africans as Emperors.
 
The Romans of Republican times were as ethnically concerned as pretty well anyone else.
 
The latter-day Empire was a totally different milieu from the Republic or even the early Empire.
 
And when you say 'Africans' there, what do you mean by 'African'? Do you consider St Augustine an 'African'?
 
To imply that 'racism' only means 'whites are superior to blacks' is ridiculous.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2007 at 23:24
Originally posted by YEMENI_CRICKET

Originally posted by pinguin

...I don't believe the reason is that people believe "we are better than them" at all. The reason is because many believe: "we look better than them". That's where all racism starts
 
Pinguin


Please show me some references to this statement Pinguin.
 
It is just a personal oppinion. Is the reason people usually mention to reject the "other": they don't "look" right. It is always the same. Intelligence, skills and not even customs have anything to do with it, but looks.
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