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Do conquerors ALWAYS rape?

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do conquerors ALWAYS rape?
    Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 09:25
   
   Written by the author of Stalingrad...
 
 
'They raped every German female from eight to 80'


"Red Army soldiers don't believe in 'individual liaisons' with German women," wrote the playwright Zakhar Agranenko in his diary when serving as an officer of marine infantry in East Prussia. "Nine, ten, twelve men at a time - they rape them on a collective basis."
The Soviet armies advancing into East Prussia in January 1945, in huge, long columns, were an extraordinary mixture of modern and medieval: tank troops in padded black helmets, Cossack cavalrymen on shaggy mounts with loot strapped to the saddle, lend-lease Studebakers and Dodges towing light field guns, and then a second echelon in horse-drawn carts. The variety of character among the soldiers was almost as great as that of their military equipment. There were freebooters who drank and raped quite shamelessly, and there were idealistic, austere communists and members of the intelligentsia appalled by such behaviour.

Beria and Stalin, back in Moscow, knew perfectly well what was going on from a number of detailed reports. One stated that "many Germans declare that all German women in East Prussia who stayed behind were raped by Red Army soldiers". Numerous examples of gang rape were given - "girls under 18 and old women included".
Marshal Rokossovsky issued order No 006 in an attempt to direct "the feelings of hatred at fighting the enemy on the battlefield." It appears to have had little effect. There were also a few arbitrary attempts to exert authority. The commander of one rifle division is said to have "personally shot a lieutenant who was lining up a group of his men before a German woman spreadeagled on the ground". But either officers were involved themselves, or the lack of discipline made it too dangerous to restore order over drunken soldiers armed with submachine guns.

Calls to avenge the Motherland, violated by the Wehrmacht's invasion, had given the idea that almost any cruelty would be allowed. Even many young women soldiers and medical staff in the Red Army did not appear to disapprove. "Our soldiers' behaviour towards Germans, particularly German women, is absolutely correct!" said a 21-year-old from Agranenko's reconnaissance detachment. A number seemed to find it amusing. Several German women recorded how Soviet servicewomen watched and laughed when they were raped. But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."

Drink of every variety, including dangerous chemicals seized from laboratories and workshops, was a major factor in the violence. It seems as if Soviet soldiers needed alcoholic courage to attack a woman. But then, all too often, they drank too much and, unable to complete the act, used the bottle instead with appalling effect. A number of victims were mutilated obscenely.

The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.

The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."

One can only scratch at the surface of the psychological contradictions. When gang-raped women in Knigsberg begged their attackers afterwards to put them out of their misery, the Red Army men appear to have felt insulted. "Russian soldiers do not shoot women," they replied. "Only German soldiers do that." The Red Army had managed to convince itself that because it had assumed the moral mission to liberate Europe from fascism it could behave entirely as it liked, both personally and politically.

Domination and humiliation permeated most soldiers' treatment of women in East Prussia. The victims not only bore the brunt of revenge for Wehrmacht crimes, they also represented an atavistic target as old as war itself. Rape is the act of a conqueror, the feminist historian Susan Brownmiller observed, aimed at the "bodies of the defeated enemy's women" to emphasise his victory. Yet after the initial fury of January 1945 dissipated, the sadism became less marked. By the time the Red Army reached Berlin three months later, its soldiers tended to regard German women more as a casual right of conquest. The sense of domination certainly continued, but this was perhaps partly an indirect product of the humiliations which they themselves had suffered at the hands of their commanders and the Soviet authorities as a whole.

A number of other forces or influences were at work. Sexual freedom had been a subject for lively debate within Communist party circles during the 1920s, but during the following decade, Stalin ensured that Soviet society depicted itself as virtually asexual. This had nothing to do with genuine puritanism: it was because love and sex did not fit in with dogma designed to "deindividualise" the individual. Human urges and emotions had to be suppressed. Freud's work was banned, divorce and adultery were matters for strong party disapproval. Criminal sanctions against homosexuality were reintroduced. The new doctrine extended even to the complete suppression of sex education. In graphic art, the clothed outline of a woman's breasts was regarded as dangerously erotic. They had to be disguised under boiler suits. The regime clearly wanted any form of desire to be converted into love for the party and above all for Comrade Stalin.

Most ill-educated Red Army soldiers suffered from sexual ignorance and utterly unenlightened attitudes towards women. So the Soviet state's attempts to suppress the libido of its people created what one Russian writer described as a sort of "barracks eroticism" which was far more primitive and violent than "the most sordid foreign pornography". All this was combined with the dehumanising influence of modern propaganda and the atavistic, warring impulses of men marked by fear and suffering.

The novelist Vasily Grossman, a war correspondent attached to the invading Red Army, soon discovered that rape victims were not just Germans. Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour. "Liberated Soviet girls quite often complain that our soldiers rape them," he noted. "One girl said to me in tears: 'He was an old man, older than my father'."

The rape of Soviet women and girls seriously undermines Russian attempts to justify Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge for German brutality in the Soviet Union. On March 29 1945 the central committee of the Komsomol (the youth organisation of the Soviet Union) informed Stalin's associate Malenkov of a report from the 1st Ukrainian Front. "On the night of 24 February," General Tsygankov recorded in the first of many examples, "a group of 35 provisional lieutenants on a course and their battalion commander entered the women's dormitory in the village of Grutenberg and raped them."

In Berlin, many women were simply not prepared for the shock of Russian revenge, however much horror propaganda they had heard from Goebbels. Many reassured themselves that, although the danger must be great out in the countryside, mass rapes could hardly take place in the city in front of everybody.

In Dahlem, Soviet officers visited Sister Kunigunde, the mother superior of Haus Dahlem, a maternity clinic and orphanage. The officers and their men behaved impeccably. In fact, the officers even warned Sister Kunigunde about the second-line troops following on behind. Their prediction proved entirely accurate. Nuns, young girls, old women, pregnant women and mothers who had just given birth were all raped without pity.

Yet within a couple of days, a pattern emerged of soldiers flashing torches in the faces of women huddled in the bunkers to choose their victims. This process of selection, as opposed to the indiscriminate violence shown earlier, indicates a definite change. By this stage Soviet soldiers started to treat German women more as sexual spoils of war than as substitutes for the Wehrmacht on which to vent their rage.

Rape has often been defined by writers on the subject as an act of violence which has little to do with sex. But that is a definition from the victim's perspective. To understand the crime, one needs to see things from the perpetrator's point of view, especially in the later stages when unaggravated rape had succeeded the extreme onslaught of January and February.

Many women found themselves forced to "concede" to one soldier in the hope that he would protect them from others. Magda Wieland, a 24-year-old actress, was dragged from a cupboard in her apartment just off the Kurfrstendamm. A very young soldier from central Asia hauled her out. He was so excited at the prospect of a beautiful young blonde that he ejaculated prematurely. By sign language, she offered herself to him as a girlfriend if he would protect her from other Russian soldiers, but he went off to boast to his comrades and another soldier raped her. Ellen Goetz, a Jewish friend of Magda's, was also raped. When other Germans tried to explain to the Russians that she was Jewish and had been persecuted, they received the retort: "Frau ist Frau."

Women soon learned to disappear during the "hunting hours" of the evening. Young daughters were hidden in storage lofts for days on end. Mothers emerged into the street to fetch water only in the early morning when Soviet soldiers were sleeping off the alcohol from the night before. Sometimes the greatest danger came from one mother giving away the hiding place of other girls in a desperate bid to save her own daughter. Older Berliners still remember the screams every night. It was impossible not to hear them because all the windows had been blown in.

Estimates of rape victims from the city's two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.

If anyone attempted to defend a woman against a Soviet attacker it was either a father trying to defend a daughter or a young son trying to protect his mother. "The 13-year old Dieter Sahl," neighbours wrote in a letter shortly after the event, "threw himself with flailing fists at a Russian who was raping his mother in front of him. He did not succeed in anything except getting himself shot."

After the second stage of women offering themselves to one soldier to save themselves from others, came the post-battle need to survive starvation. Susan Brownmiller noted "the murky line that divides wartime rape from wartime prostitution". Soon after the surrender in Berlin, Ursula von Kardorff found all sorts of women prostituting themselves for food or the alternative currency of cigarettes. Helke Sander, a German film-maker who researched the subject in great detail, wrote of "the grey area of direct force, blackmail, calculation and real affection".

The fourth stage was a strange form of cohabitation in which Red Army officers settled in with German "occupation wives". The Soviet authorities were appalled and enraged when a number of Red Army officers, intent on staying with their German lovers, deserted when it was time to return to the Motherland.

Even if the feminist definition of rape purely as an act of violence proves to be simplistic, there is no justification for male complacency. If anything, the events of 1945 reveal how thin the veneer of civilisation can be when there is little fear of retribution. It also suggests a much darker side to male sexuality than we might care to admit.

Antony Beevor.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 10:29
Rape is one of the privilages of victory, Moral of the story, don't lose wars.
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 10:57
I dont think that Invading armies 'always' rape. Its to do with discipline and how much of it there is.

In the Case of the Red army, It was the second line troops that caused much of the rape. The Frontline Elite were generally not involved, they were busy fighting etc. The Underpaid, Under Fed, Red Army soldier often from the country side, was involved in some horrific incidents.

Having talked to people in Romania about Soviet Soldiers, it wasn't just Berlin where this occurred. It was every place that the Red army went.

Obviously, the Extract you have taken from Antony Beevors book, an extract I've actually read before, is rather sensationalised. Its an amateur history that reads very much like a Tabloid newspaper. But its obvious that the red army rampage was rather horrific. I'd like to see some 'real' evidence for statistics too, not just the ex-post memory of some doctors etc. He offers no real analysis of his evidence, just narrative, which obviously makes some of use a little uneasy.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 11:18
Originally posted by Sparten

Rape is one of the privilages of victory, Moral of the story, don't lose wars.
 
That is a very male-focused reply. I'm sure quite a lot of those German women had little to do with winning or losing the war.
 
For a complete image, you would also need a number on rape of Soviet girls by Germans/other natonalities by Germans/Germans girls by Americans/Brits/other allies, etc.
 
Factors do not only include dicipline (which is important), but also, as the article mentioned, the level of 'sexual sanity' of the army, as well as the level of dehumanisation of the enemy.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 12:30
Originally posted by Ovidius

I dont think that Invading armies 'always' rape. Its to do with discipline and how much of it there is.

In the Case of the Red army, It was the second line troops that caused much of the rape. The Frontline Elite were generally not involved, they were busy fighting etc. The Underpaid, Under Fed, Red Army soldier often from the country side, was involved in some horrific incidents.

Having talked to people in Romania about Soviet Soldiers, it wasn't just Berlin where this occurred. It was every place that the Red army went.

Obviously, the Extract you have taken from Antony Beevors book, an extract I've actually read before, is rather sensationalised. Its an amateur history that reads very much like a Tabloid newspaper. But its obvious that the red army rampage was rather horrific. I'd like to see some 'real' evidence for statistics too, not just the ex-post memory of some doctors etc. He offers no real analysis of his evidence, just narrative, which obviously makes some of use a little uneasy.
 
      I recognise the credibility of Beevor is often disputed. I for one does not have a definite opinion of his work, as I have yet to read one of his books. I could've used the Japanese in Nanking as an example. But that is not the point. I was just using it as something to stir a discussion, with exploring the the mentality of the soldiers of a conquering army as the purpose of my thread.
 
       I'm interested to know how the soldiers of the Red Army felt as they enter Germany. One can almost put oneself in their position, imagining oneself as he rides into a German town on the back of a tank. Though rape is hardly excusable, you cannot deny that the Soviet soldier's anguish and hatred is very real. How can a people so well off come and try to steal what so little we've got?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 13:11
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Sparten

Rape is one of the privilages of victory, Moral of the story, don't lose wars.
 
That is a very male-focused reply. I'm sure quite a lot of those German women had little to do with winning or losing the war.
 
For a complete image, you would also need a number on rape of Soviet girls by Germans/other natonalities by Germans/Germans girls by Americans/Brits/other allies, etc.
 
Factors do not only include dicipline (which is important), but also, as the article mentioned, the level of 'sexual sanity' of the army, as well as the level of dehumanisation of the enemy.
Stop bringing gender issues into it. Rape is part and parcel of conquests until recent times and even now. I am not saying it is right, just that it happens. As for discipline well it depends on the commander and what he wants to do the area. If his orders are merely to pass through then its unlikely that anyone will be around for too long for their to be an organized or disorganized "outbreak". If the aim is to destroy tyhe land, you know the usual, burn the crops, kill the livestock then such things will happen.
 
And BTW in a total war, everyone is a target.
 
 
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 13:38
Given the chance, and no fear of consequences, out of any large group of men there will be those who'll indulge themselves with rape. In mathematical terms, let's say the male sexuality is X, and self-discipline is Y. Once you add these two together, you'll discover that men often lack any significant degree of self-discipline and thus will rape given the right circumstances. I'd be as daring as to say that perhaps even the majority would.

At least that's my somewhat pessimistic assessment, though you could say I'm biased as I'm one of those men who to some extent resent their own sex.

Edited by Reginmund - 25-Apr-2007 at 13:39
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 19:11
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Factors do not only include dicipline (which is important), but also, as the article mentioned, the level of 'sexual sanity' of the army, as well as the level of dehumanisation of the enemy.


I'm sorry but dehumanisation of the enemy doesn't mean anything to me. Dehumanisation of Women is perhaps more of an explanation.

If it was dehumanisation of the enemy, explain the reason why the Red Army Raped women everywhere it went. Romania for example, do you believe that Romanians and Romanian Women were dehumanised as the enemy, eventhough they were, at that point, allied.

       I'm interested to know how the soldiers of the Red Army felt as they enter Germany. One can almost put oneself in their position, imagining oneself as he rides into a German town on the back of a tank. Though rape is hardly excusable, you cannot deny that the Soviet soldier's anguish and hatred is very real. How can a people so well off come and try to steal what so little we've got?


I only want to bring up Beevor's problems because i think its important to the discussion. Rape in War is always going to be exaggerated, because it is normally based on the accusations of the victims or those around at the time. Its difficult to work out the real extent of the Rape. I realise that ther eare plenty of examples of

Like I said, I think that Rape in Modern Warfare is not normal, it is the exception. I believe that it is to do, primarily, with the culture with which the soldiers belong. Without wanting to call the Soviet Soldiers 'primitive', but most came from a social position dominant over women. They came from primitive areas of Russia. They were drunkards, much of this rape came as part of Drunken rampages.

I also think that you cannot group such events into one bag. I know of many examples of 'Mass Rape' and have read many studies of it. I think that most of these studies do no apply to all manifestations.

If you are interested, I've got a few references that might be of use to you.

From what I've read, the main sort of things that are brought up are discipline within the army (including the attitudes of Officers), attitudes towards women in general, the culture of the army itself and the nature of the enemy/attitude towards the enemy/victim, nature of the conflict. However, as I said, it is a fairly mixed phenomena.

I think it must be a factor also that Russians were pretty angry about what they viewed in Germany. Especially those that had witnessed the slaughter. Maybe the Rape was a way of releasing their own trauma?
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 20:11
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Sparten

Rape is one of the privilages of victory, Moral of the story, don't lose wars.
 
That is a very male-focused reply. I'm sure quite a lot of those German women had little to do with winning or losing the war.
 
For a complete image, you would also need a number on rape of Soviet girls by Germans/other natonalities by Germans/Germans girls by Americans/Brits/other allies, etc.
 
Factors do not only include dicipline (which is important), but also, as the article mentioned, the level of 'sexual sanity' of the army, as well as the level of dehumanisation of the enemy.
 
It may be a male-focused reply, but it's true. The possibility of getting raped increases if your nation lose the war.
 
Purely disgusting. I didn't know that the situation is this serious...


Edited by pekau - 25-Apr-2007 at 20:22
     
   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 21:49

No. Many times they don't need to rape. Althogh in at the end of the wars that almost always happens. However, when peace comes, any smart leader with control its own people, and they do.

Now, a conquistador is a warrior, and a usually sucessful warriors atract women like rock stars. That it what was saught in many cases in the Americas, at least.

The only that rape are the disorganized troops of poor peasants.

 

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 21:55
Originally posted by Sparten

Stop bringing gender issues into it. Rape is part and parcel of conquests until recent times and even now.
 
 
if it's not a gender issue, what is it?
 
 
 
However what quote fails to mention was the Soviets killed every male over the age of sixteen. I know which sex got off the lightest. This is also a common phenomena in similar historical events in history.


Edited by Paul - 25-Apr-2007 at 21:56
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:45
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I thought they were dead anyway, from being in the army. As for the gender issue read the whole of her reply. "What did the women have to do with losing the war?" Well very simple, they were Germans. In a total war everyone is the enemy.
 
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:46
I don't want to bring evolution everywhere but it is a typical behaviour in primates (and other mamals). The new alpha male will kill the infants and force the females to abort (if they don't do it automatically themselves). Even in humans separation or divorce will increase (I don't remember the figure but it is something like 250%) the probability of miscarage. The psychological bottom line of this is that you rape your enemy's female so you increase the number of your descendents. The best example is I think Ghengis Khan who personally raped hundreds and manages now to have something like 13 millions people have part of his genes the world over.

PS: it is true that the Russian soldiers where not the only ones involved in massive rapes. I think that the figure of 300,000 has been considered a reasonable estemate of the number of rapes commited by the allied troops in France, Belgium and the Netherlands during the 1944-45 Liberation. But then again what do you expect when you have some 3,000,000 lonesome men in a place?

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 09:01
I have a problem with the idea that raping is a natural result of a war. Why would raping a fellow female soldier or nurse be a rare incident even if war took months and months? because the excercise of law is greater within the army itself.
In addition, Let us imagine the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the US. There were at least 300,000 soldiers participating in that invasion. How many cases of raping Iraqi women during the invasion? Extremely minimum if none. If we took the 10% rate of rape Maharbbal stated earlier (and that rate was raping your allied liberated women! not your enemy's females), there should be at least 30,000 case or rape, which is not the case even after 4 years of invasion.
Bottom line is that, an army can excercise self-discipline to prevent such surprising figures of war rapes.

Edited by ok ge - 26-Apr-2007 at 09:04
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 09:35
Originally posted by Maharbbal


PS: it is true that the Russian soldiers where not the only ones involved in massive rapes. I think that the figure of 300,000 has been considered a reasonable estemate of the number of rapes commited by the allied troops in France, Belgium and the Netherlands during the 1944-45 Liberation. But then again what do you expect when you have some 3,000,000 lonesome men in a place?


You got some evidence about this?? Where did you get such a high figure from?

I mean there were obviously rapes going on within this sphere of war. But on such a scale?!

I've read some pretty serious studies explaining how many soldiers were executed for raping and murdering people during the war - suggesting that it was taken as a crime and punishments were dealt out.

But i'd like to know where you got 300k from?
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 10:02
My bad this figure also includes the rapes in England and Italy

Concerning the cases of judgement as they represented at 80% black soldiers you while these soldiers represented far less than 5% of the armed forces you can easily imagine what it means (source)

Why not raping the nurses and the female soldiers?
1) They had a boyfirend right there so you'd better not touch it.
2) Punishment would have been tough.
3) You don't do it to a fellow soldier.

Yet I think it did happen very often. I've read my grand ma WWII memories (she was in the maquis) and she openly admits to have been raped once, to escape once and she more or less indicates that several times it may have happened.

Finally, conserning Irak I guess one of the major factors is that there is virtually no contact between the troops and the population outside of the operations. Other factors may be at play: high number of officiers per soldiers and strict monitoring in general, the fact that the army is professional, soldiers are not in Iraq for very long, soldiers have an easy access to porn and their familly (and maybe brothels), women are maybe less likely to put themselves in risky situation (bals, promenades, bars), the fact that women are not wandering freely in the streets and finally (and most important) because the women don't say it for cultural reasons. I'd even say that the rate of rape is suspectly low, one expect at least a minimal number of soldiers going too far but here no Why?


Edited by Maharbbal - 26-Apr-2007 at 10:13
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 15:24
Originally posted by Ovidius

I'd like to see some 'real' evidence for statistics too, not just the ex-post memory of some doctors etc. He offers no real analysis of his evidence, just narrative, which obviously makes some of use a little uneasy.


Dint Beevor state some references to the abortion statistics in his book? I could be wrong its been so long since I read it. If you can dig up abortion statistics from this period you might get a somekind of a figure of the rapes. Other than thease kind of trend-setting evidence probably do not excist.

Otherwise I agree. The soviet command was much to blame from the attrocities. The rapes were looked through fingers most of the time.
If I remember correctly there were even indirect suggestions in The Red Star military news paper. It was something like "to take away the pride of the 'aryan race'".

Personally I believe the near 2 000 000 figure is correct. The animosity was so great between the opposing nations.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 22:21
1) About Iraq we don't really know do we?
2) The defination of rape is of course very difficult to identify here. I am sure in many cases  the women considered the circumstances and decided it was better to consent. Could that be called valid consent? Frankly I doubt it.
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 05:57
it is actually something of a tradition:
-the greeks did it when they captured troy
-the romans did it when they captured towns in britain
-the crusaders did it when they captured jerusalem
-the turks did it when they captured constantinople
-the armenians did it when they and the russians captured trabzon in world war one
-the japanese did it to koreans prior to world war two
-the serbians did it to bosnians in the 1990s
 
it has happened in almost every culture, every country and every war. all through-out history.
 
think of it this way: armies consist of men hired to kill. therefore i think it would be natural for alot of these men to be less then ethical. they are hired killers - ofcourse they are going to be psycopaths! so to them rape may not be an ethical dilemma.
 
ofcourse that doesn't mean it is acceptable, but we do need to try to understand it before we condemn it. look at japan today, they are under a lot of pressure because japanese soliders in world war two forced women to become sex slaves. similarly armenia is being condemned by azerbaijan for when their soldiers raped and massacred hundreds in the khojaly massacre in 1991.
 
it is happening too in almost every conflict in africa right now, as we speak!
 
I don't think we can deny that it is a natural, if not despicable, outcome of war.
 
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 06:06
Originally posted by Sparten

Rape is one of the privilages of victory, Moral of the story, don't lose wars.
 
i think that basically summarises the mentality behind the rapists. in war a person is surrounded by death and destruction, this would surely shatter their previous ideas of moral principles (assuming they existed in a particular soldier, which as i mentioned before isn't always the case). when one is confronted with the sacrifice and suffering of war, and when everyone is struggling to survive, life becomes an "everyone for himself" matter. and hence the ethical validity of rape seems minimal. this is particularly true of the eastern front during world war two.
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