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Turks And Mongols

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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks And Mongols
    Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 22:32

I always ask myself, how do we differ hundreds of tribes either Turkic or Mongoloid? Aren' t they the same. I have seen many historians (non famous, guys in my university) and people who did not like Mongols just because they were not muslim.

I have seen in Hungary Under the Early Arpads by Kosztolnyik and Ottoman Centuries by Lord Kintoss that Turks and Mongoloids are brother i.e. same nations...

As far as I can see, it was like the discrimination in ancient Greece. Athenians, Spartans, Thebans, Corinthians, Messenians, etc...

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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 22:58
The way I look at it is that all Turk tribes are the same people when it comes down to it.  The Mongols I see as like cousins in a way.  Though, I think way back in the day Turks and Mongols were basically considered as one people.  But I think other people see it differently.
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 23:02
I know this is off the subject, but why isn't the Azeri flag waving in my name?  I thought it should when you pick a country.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 23:56
there are some flags that havent been uploaded yet i believe.
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 10:43
I have  a question related to this original topic.  If there is someone here that is Mongolian they can answer this for me.  These days how is the relationship with the Mongolian government and other Turkish governments?  Also, do the people still consider them selves closely related as they did a long time ago? Any answer is welcome but I prefer to hear from a Mongolians point of view.  Thank you
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  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 17:40
Originally posted by Feramez

The way I look at it is that all Turk tribes are the same people when it comes down to it. The Mongols I see as like cousins in a way.  Though, I think way back in the day Turks and Mongols were basically considered as one people.  But I think other people see it differently.


All Turkic people are not the same at all...

Turkish Turks have extremely little in common with Azeris. In fact, I don't even consider you Azeris Turkic.

As for the political relationship between Mongolia and Turkey, they'res nothing special about it. Although it is probably infinitely more rewarding than our relations with Azerbaijan




Edited by Turk
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 17:53
Yes they are, Turks from Turkey and Turks from Central Asia are the same.  They may have their differences in appearance and dialects, but that comes with mixing with other cultures and nationalities.  Now I remember hearing once before someone telling me that Azeris aren't considered Turks at all, tell me why.  Because I have some Azeri in me and was always taught that they are Turk.
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  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 19:20
No one with credibility considers Azerbaijan a "Turkish" state except Azeris themselves (some at least). I believe one thing everyone can agree on is that Azeris speak a Turkic language.

Some of this stuff might be harsh, but this is just what I concluded from everything I've read and my own dealings with groups of Azeris.

Azeris were always around before the Turks, developing along with Armenian, Persion, and other east Caucus Mountain people...They, unlike the great majority of Turkic tribes, adopted the Shia religion (this significant in the further increase of differences later on). I still believe whole heartedly that Azeris never had anything ethnically to do with Turkic or nomadic people. Where are your old miniature paintings, scriptures, and ancient games played on horseback or wrestling? I see Uygurs, Uzbeks, Tatars, and Kazakhs having (or had) these sorts of things in common with me, but not Azeris.

Now in the modern era, after being ruled by Russians, then Soviets, for all that time, there are fundamental differences between Azerbaijan and Turkey, to the point where I can comfortably say the only thing we have to do with each other  is linguistic similarity (although I think this was always the only similarity). Islam (and any other belief advocating any type of morals for that matter) is dead, and athiest/materialistic communist virtues are still very much the norm.

I have known numerous Turks going to Azerbaijan for business or politics, and they never ever come back with anything good to say. It is a totally different (and poltically/culturally/militarily insignificant) country. From my dealings with big groups of Azeris, their customs and culture are totally different. They have all these things they do that resemble Russian tradition more than Turkic. Nobody takes their shoes off, everyone is stuffing their mouths with pork, they are very loud....What Turk would serve a roasted pig with an apple in it's mouth for dinner?

It's amusing to know that Azerbaijan, being not only defeated but occupied by a country 1 third it's size, sent 100 soldiers to Iraq to help the Americans. Hell, they sold tanks to Armenia while they were at war with them.

Turks and Azeris share none of the same values. All this Turkish and Azeri solidarity non-sense is the result of Azeris trying to bunch themselves up with others who actually HAVE history, culture, and tradition.

Another interesting tidbit, Azeri citizens are not allowed to purchase property in Turkey. The only reason the Turkish government even bothers dealing with Azerbaijan is because of its gas / oil potential.

In essence, I believe Azeris have more to do with Armenians and Russians than Turkic people (note - no jab at Armenians or Russians), and South Azeris have more to do with Iranis than Turkic people. We have more differences than similarities, and our cultures conflict more than they agree. Azeris were always around before the Turks came, and seem to be more like an off-shoot of some Persian peoples than anything else.

Turks have much more in common even today with Tatars, Kazaks, Uzbeks, and especially Uygurs than Azeris.

Just my opinion, Azeris are not and never were Turks. They are not successors to the Turkic nomads of old.

If you want to read something more credible than my rant here, go to http://www.iranchamber.com/people/language_azeri_people_ pan_turkism.php

It's the Irani take on the issue. Although their section on pan-Turkism is ignorant, read what they say on the origins of Azeris and who they really are.


Edited by Turk
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 21:36
Ok well, I do have to say that you make some very good points there, which are mostly true.  But growing up your whole life part Azeri and being told Azeris are part of the Turks, I don't think anyone would change my mind.  But one thing I can argue on is the fact that Turkey's Turks and Central Asia's Turks are the same people, just with some differences. 
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 08:46
Well... we like to differ settled turkics from the nomads. The nomadic turkic people are extremely close to us. Otherwise, we don't have gigantic oil or gas reserves so I guess people wouldn't really bother dealing with us, were not for our peculiar geographic location. So now we get regular visits between turkish and mongolian politicians, turkish restaurants in UB and mongolians studying in police academies in Turkey.
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 10:11
Thank you, Chono.  That's the answer I been waiting for.  I have heard there are Turkish restaurants there, I remember watching a travel show on T.V. and they showed a big turkish restaurant in UlaanBataar(not sure on spelling) with Ataturks face at the entrance.  I'm planning on going there maybe this summer or next winter.  A trip I been wanting to take for a ling time.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 01:31

AT TURK:

1) "No one with credibility considers Azerbaijan a "Turkish" state except Azeris themselves (some at least). I believe one thing everyone can agree on is that Azeris speak a Turkic language."

As someone who has spent time in Turkey and Iran, and who's Grandfather was from Tabriz, and Grandmother from Ashgobat, I can certify for a fact that your are an agenda driven liar.

The majority of people in the former Soviet states of Central can understand and communicate with an Azari speaker. Such is not the case for an Istanbuli speaker, such as yourself. There is simply TOO much Arabic in the Turkish language to be comprehensible by those in Central Asia. For example, Turkman and Azari are virtually the same, and are really just dialects of one another. As a result, Azari is, for all intents an purposes, the lingua franca of the Turkic speaking world.


2) "Azeris were always around before the Turks, developing along with Armenian, Persion, and other east Caucus Mountain people...They, unlike the great majority of Turkic tribes, adopted the Shia religion (this significant in the further increase of differences later on). I still believe whole heartedly that Azeris never had anything ethnically to do with Turkic or nomadic people. "

To believe from ones "heart" has very little to do with rational science.

3)"Where are your old miniature paintings, scriptures, and ancient games played on horseback or wrestling? I see Uygurs, Uzbeks, Tatars, and Kazakhs having (or had) these sorts of things in common with me, but not Azeris.[/QUOTE]

Are you really this naive? Have you ever even set foot in Northern Iran? The Azaris are FAMOUS for such practices.

Ironically, some of the practices actually predate the Turkic arrival, such as wrestling, and are gift to the Turk form their Iranian cousins.

4)"Now in the modern era, after being ruled by Russians, then Soviets, for all that time, there are fundamental differences between Azerbaijan and Turkey, to the point where I can comfortably say the only thing we have to do with each other  is linguistic similarity (although I think this was always the only similarity). Islam (and any other belief advocating any type of morals for that matter) is dead, and athiest/materialistic communist virtues are still very much the norm. "

The Azari langauge of Iran has had ZERO Russian influence within it, and yet you claim that the Russians affected them as well? I hope you do realize that the majority of Azaris live in Iran, and not Azaribijan.

I actually do agree with you point that the Northern Azari have been culturally ruined by the Russian Communists. That I have seen first hand.

5) "I have known numerous Turks going to Azerbaijan for business or politics, and they never ever come back with anything good to say. It is a totally different (and poltically/culturally/militarily insignificant) country. From my dealings with big groups of Azeris, their customs and culture are totally different. They have all these things they do that resemble Russian tradition more than Turkic. Nobody takes their shoes off, everyone is stuffing their mouths with pork, they are very loud....What Turk would serve a roasted pig with an apple in it's mouth for dinner?"

What would you expect after over a century of Russian rule? Do you really think its any better in Kazakstan, or Uzbekistan?

6) "It's amusing to know that Azerbaijan, being not only defeated but occupied by a country 1 third it's size, sent 100 soldiers to Iraq to help the Americans. Hell, they sold tanks to Armenia while they were at war with them."

Well, Iran and Russian backed Armenia. Turkey backed Azaribijan. Interesting results, don't you think?


7) "Turks and Azeris share none of the same values. All this Turkish and Azeri solidarity non-sense is the result of Azeris trying to bunch themselves up with others who actually HAVE history, culture, and tradition. "

Like I said before, you have spent no time in Iran, and your comments are based out biased prejudice and ignorance.

8) "In essence, I believe Azeris have more to do with Armenians and Russians than Turkic people (note - no jab at Armenians or Russians), and South Azeris have more to do with Iranis than Turkic people. We have more differences than similarities, and our cultures conflict more than they agree. Azeris were always around before the Turks came, and seem to be more like an off-shoot of some Persian peoples than anything else."

Or even those pesksy Scythians you fellas love to mention all the time...

9) "Turks have much more in common even today with Tatars, Kazaks, Uzbeks, and especially Uygurs than Azeris."

100% Wrong!

Turks from the Anatolian Peninsula probably share more with Arabs than anyone else, at least those in the Western regions(which is the "Turkic" majority of the popuation).

The notion that the Turkish have anything in common with Kazaks or Uzbeks is something that could only be quoted from an individual who has not experienced those cultures and peoples first hand.

All I have to say is, go look in a mirrior...

10) "Just my opinion, Azeris are not and never were Turks. They are not successors to the Turkic nomads of old."

And "Turkey" Turks are even less so...

Oh, and how do you figure that Azaris ever came across the Turkic langauge? HHHhhhmmm???

11) "If you want to read something more credible than my rant here, go to http://www.iranchamber.com/people/language_azeri_people_ pan_turkism."

Are you aware that the link you sited is a right-wing "Pan-Iranist" source?

Why not just sight the website to the Nazis, while your ate it.

12) "It's the Irani take on the issue. Although their section on pan-Turkism is ignorant, read what they say on the origins of Azeris and who they really are."

I did...There wrong.



Edited by Padishah
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 03:43
The gastronomical market there has a very speedy pace, ten years ago turkish eateries were en vogue, don't be surprised if you can't find that place anymore.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 05:54
Well.... You think like this, ha? But my opinion is different. Turkish people cannot be like Mongolian ones. Someone thinks that turkish people and mongolian people are from the same nation. On the other hand, it's impossible. For instance, The Turkish don't like meat kinds at all. Because they do not know how to eat it. Another example is they do not love ''guests''. By contrast, The mongolians like eat a lot of meat kinds and very hospital ones. By the way, do they know where their roots came from?   
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 11:11
Thank you Padishah.  Unfortunatly I do not know my Azeri roots as well as my Turkish,  so I wasn't able to prove those points.
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 11:17
Solo, what are you talking about?  Turks don't like meat?  All the Turks that I know love meat.  How did Turks get to be known for their great hospitatlity if we don't like guest?  Turkish hospitality is one of the best in the world, anyone that steps foot into a Turkish household would tell you that.  Turks, from what I have been taught and just about every other Turk has been taught, have originateded in the area of Mongolia and the Altay Mountains.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 12:58

I don't think Turko-Mongolic peoples took wrestling from Iranians.

solo, what are you talking about? You don't seem to know Turks of Turkey.

Padishah, it would be an ignorent statement to claim that Turks of Turkey are closer to Arabs

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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 21:31
So can a Turk from Turkey understand any Central Asian languages?
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2005 at 22:32
Yes, it'll be easier for the Turk depending on the dialect being spoken and the education of the Turk.  Some dialects will take longer than others to understand.  There are dialects out there that a Turk probably can't understand without learning it all.  When I was in East Turkistan, I only had to learn just a few words to be able to communicate just the basics, the rest just took some time to understand.  It might've been easier for me than others because I have studied a lot of words before my trip there.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 14:46
I guess Eastern (Uzbek and Uyghur) are closer to Oghuz rather than Siberian, Qpchaq and Chuvash groups.
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