Ottoman Empire should be included here also

Originally posted by HulaguHan Truth is, Greeks now object it but their ancestors fought and died for their Caesar' s. This book can be found very easily: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? userid=5E6K0RIAXe&isbn=0674013859&itm=3 It mentions that Comneni Emperor recognices Mehmet the Conqueror as the Emperor of Romans. Well thrones are bought by power, Ottoman dynasty bought it by their power. Greeks were governing the empire in reality, Turks lost their positions to Greeks and other guys. Counting Ottoman Empire as an Islamic Empire is a big mistake. It will be like counting Roman Empire as a Christian Empire. It is true that governors were muslim but they have never forced others to become muslims. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians (Turkish origined) are still orthodox. Army was formed of Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians. Navy was completely Greek. Governments were consisted of Greek with some Serbs and some Albanians. Well I can not say it is a Turkish Empire either. And do not be deceived, in those days, Islam was far more advanced, free, enlightened religion than Christianity. So do not be confused of the conversions.

Can you mention specific goverments and some specific names of the Greeks,Serbs and Albanians who consisted them?Hellens are still Orthodox but to claim that governors did not force them to change their religion or that they did not put any pressure on it is ridiculous.If there was such freedom in the Ottoman empire then why the Hellens made the great revolution?For fun or because they were mashocists and they liked to see their fellows get killed for nothing?Or why then the Agia Sofia was destroyed?For fun?Be serious man....Moreover if everybody in the Ottoman army,navy,goverment were Hellen then the Ottoman empire would have collapsed in a few years from it's founding.It's hilarious even to think of it.The Ottoman empire cannot be called third Rome because it maybe took some elements from the countries it conquered but it's nothing more than an Asiatic empire in it's ideology,religion and identity.It might was a multicultural empire but it's organization was based in Islam.  

Originally posted by HulaguHan Greeks were governing the empire in reality, Turks lost their positions to Greeks and other guys.

This is an exaggeration. But it is true that Ottoman top state mechanism has mostly lost Turkish ethnicity but the new comers were not belonging to any nations either. They were raised to serve the state and sultan as devoted Muslims.

Why empire's top mechanism lost Turkish ethnicity?

There were many Turkish beyliks on Anatolia competing for power against Ottomans. For example while Mehmet the conqueror was on siege of Constantinople, Turksih Karaman Beyligi of Konya was waiting for a crusader army from the west to attack Ottomans from the east. Again Safavid in Iran was an other Turkish state who was in alliance against Ottomans. And Ottomans have never forgotten the disaster against Turkic Timur in 1402. Many Turkish troops belonging to beylik conquered by Ottomans have changed their sides and fought against Ottomans. And the Empire was just about collapsing.

This is a very short summary. But to control Anatolia, to control the army against a war Safavids or in the future against Mameluks (an other Turkic state in Egypt) sultans gave more importance to Jannissaries in the army. The importance of them was not that much before 15th century. Converted Christians has been used in the Jannissaries corps until 17th century. And apart from them the rest of the army was ethnically Turk.  

Originally posted by HulaguHan Counting Ottoman Empire as an Islamic Empire is a big mistake. It will be like counting Roman Empire as a Christian Empire. It is true that governors were muslim but they have never forced others to become muslims. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians (Turkish origined) are still orthodox..

No ..... Ottoman Empire was definetely an Islamic Empire.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Army was formed of Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians...

This is wrong. Only Jannissary corps were forming by converted Christians especially between 15th -17th centuries, not the army.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Navy was completely Greek.

This is wrong. In fact majority in navy was Italian. Turkish troops of sipahi were also used widely in navy as today's marines. Naval vocabulary in Turkish language is Italian not Greek.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Governments were consisted of Greek with some Serbs and some Albanians. .

You are putting too much importance to Greeks in the Empire. In fact Greeks and Armenians were not played an important role in the administrative level. Administrative levels again mostly in 15th-17th centuries have been selected from Balkan. They were mainly Serbs and Albanians. It was the same in the Jannissary troops. Jannissaries were raised according to Bektashi discipline and culture which is a pure Turkish culture.

Edited by Alparslan

Originally posted by Spartakus Logic came back....

lol  

Originally posted by HulaguHan Well thanks a lot for the Orthodox church of Greece, crusader historians of Germanic world and the Turko-Islamist fanatics of Turkey, Ottomans are rejected from European history by the help of all of the fractions.

Dear Hulagu Han,

I am trying to understand you. I did not say something that Ottoman Empire did not have any connections with Romans. I said if there is a successor of Roman Empire it could be Ottoman Empire. It seems like it is a problem for you that Ottomans are rejected from European history. Why is it a problem? To not to be rejected should we deny our identity, our beliefs and declare ourselves as Romans? Sorry but this is very naive. Ottomans were a mix of cultures. Yes. But not only Romans. Anatolian culture, steppes culture, Islamic culture, Christian culture, Jews culture....etc 

You are complaining about historians of Germanic world like me but you are showing Lord Kinross as your source about your knowledge on Barbaros Hayreddin. In fact Barbaros, himself has written something about his life and you can find it in library in Istanbul. You should know it before complaining about this kind of things. His grandfather Abdullah and his father Nurullah Yakup was sipahi and ethically Turk from Karasi - Anatolia then settled to Balkans in Varna after the conquests. His father participated to the conquest of Midilli (Mytiliene) with Mehmet the conqueror as marine foreces to fight in land and settled in the island. He was not even in navy. Bonova village in the island has been given to him as timar. He wrote all of these. He said that his father has married with a women from the island but he is not talking about her ethnicity. Some sources say she was from refugees of Andulus, Spain. But he did not say this so we connot be sure about it. She may be Arabic, Sefarad Jews, Italian or Greek. We do not know. His nick name was given him by forsas (war prisoners used in ships) Barbe rousse meaning red barbe which is not Greek too.     

But you are going to one extreme from another. How can you deny the importance of Islam in the empire? By only looking Janissaries whose numbers were very limited and they have been mostly collected from Christians for only a limited period of time you declared that Ottoman army was not Turk. Even Janissaries were raised according to pure Turkish culture in line with Bektashi-Alevi order. Isn't it Islam? May be it was different than Arabic understanding of Islam it was Islam. They were speaking Turkish, they were raised according to Turkish culture, they fought in the Turkish army so it means that they were Turks. This is the definition of being Turks. I do not believe in racial staff. Are Gokturks and Seljuks were exactly the same people? No. 

If you go that far I can ask you "how do you know that those Christians were not coming from Christian Turkish stocks such as Cumans, Pechenegs, Bulgars who came Balkans much before than Ottomans? 

Originally posted by HulaguHan Alparslan, Janissaries is backbone of the army. What else do we have? Bashibozuks? Sipahis? Do you count them as a significant force?

Janissaries were of course important and they were specially trained and situated at the center of the army with sultan. But Ottoman army was composed by many different troops and units and these are changed during time. Sipahis were also very important, they were the most important cavalary units of Ottoman Empire. All units were completing each others. What about artillary units, humbaracis, serdengectis? Do you think you can win a battle only with Janissaries? My answer is simply no.  

Originally posted by HulaguHan Please show me what did Ottomans do for islam? Did they force people to convert? Did they govern the empire with the rules of Quran?

They were thinking that they were doing something for it. But religion became in fact a tool to be used in politics. It was so in every other empire and country. Who was Seyhulislam? He was the biggest religious authority in the Ottoman Empire controling if laws are appropriate with Quran. But if reel politics and Islam contradicted with each others sultans were saying him what to do and what Quran says "in fact"    about it. In addition religion is something that can be interpreted. If there is a difference between Turkish and Arabic way of interpreting it this doesn't mean that Ottomans did not use Quran rules or they are not Islamic. They tried to do it, interpreted according to their own understanding and used it as a political tool. 

So according to you Papacy was not Christian since they were ordering to burn gingers since they were witches. Christians were not practicing this anymore and this is something undebetable in Christianity. Who are the real Christians? You can not easyly compare today and past. Values are so different. Societies and cultures are dynamic and changing.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Do you know what does Mecelle mean? Did you know that Government system was a form of the late Romans? Off course in the last years, religion took power, no doubt.

Mecelle is something related with 19th century. Religion took power especially sunni Islam since Ottomans wanted to use the title Caliph as a political tool. After than we understood that using religion in politics is giving harm to ourselves especially culturally, serves nothing anymore Turkey became a laik country. From western point of view (Germanic) they saw that we have imitating west. No. But if you compare Ottoman E. and Turkey can you say that they are not related? No you cannot. So while doing your comparaisons please try to be more careful and take the time and change effects on societies.   

Originally posted by HulaguHan I like Ottoman Empire, but I can not count it as a Turkish and an islamic empire.

So you are claiming that Ottoman Empire was in fact Roman Empire and a Christian state.

Sorry but this is not true.  

Originally posted by HulaguHan When have we conquered Italian lands BTW. But I did not know that Naval vocabulary was Italian, if you can give me sources about this issue, that would be perfect, thanks a lot.

Morea, Agean islands, Cyprus had been conquered from Italians. Even Constantinople was defending by Italian troops (best units) against Turks. It is well known facts that some grand vezirs are not Turk ethnically but they were Serbs or Albanians or sometimes they are from Caucasia. But what is the importance of this? They were Turks in fact. It is also known that some sultans' mothers were Greek in origine. But this doesn't make him Greek. 

Originally posted by HulaguHan Well thanks a lot for the Orthodox church of Greece, crusader historians of Germanic world and the Turko-Islamist fanatics of Turkey, Ottomans are rejected from European history by the help of all of the fractions.

Why do you have such opsession? Is it so important to become a part of European history? In fact East Rome was not accepted in Europe. In addition to this Turks and Ottomans belong to a different culture and past from Europe. Why will we struggle to change this?

Originally posted by HulaguHan Yes mate, we invented all of the olive oil foods.

Who has invented olive oil?   I quess it was Phonecians. So what? We did not invent TV so does it mean that we are not Turk but American?

 

Originally posted by HulaguHan We invented the hamam, Romans stole it from us by inventing the time machine, they established Roman bath.

There is also Fin hamam too. Can there be a cultural relation of Ural-Altaic culture? If no what was the relation of Fins and Roman bath? 

Originally posted by HulaguHan Turkish Arts Music is the actual source of Roman Rituals. Again they stole that by their time machine.

Did you ever study on music? What do you know about oriental music? Did you ever listen a Roman music? If yes please send methe notes or tell me how I can find them.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Janissary system is again stolen from us, they founded legionary.

Turks themselves were fighting as legionaires. For example Memluks which was meaning white slaves were nothing more that Turkish legionaires. Is it so difficult to invent a legionaire system in 14th century? Were Janissaries same with Roman legions?  

Originally posted by HulaguHan We converted the Greeks and Serbs to islam by force, look at Spartakus he is in the friday namaz now and will be back soon, do not worry.

Do you want to show that Ottomans were not an Islamic state? Should we force them according to Islam?

This is our interpretation of Islam, we are not forcing people to convert OK? I think Arabs were doing this except first stage of Islam. Otherwise you would not see any Assyrians, Jews, Caldeans, Kipthi etc today after 1500 years.....

Originally posted by HulaguHan I understand the Turks OK, Europe rejects them so they embrace islamism, nationalism, cheuvenism, but I really can not understand the Euro guys, what will happen if they accept Ottomans as part of Europe. BTW do not think I am dying to be western like Azimuth mentioned.  I do not think I am a German or whatever, just defending what I think.

Please continue to defend what you think. But they can not accept Ottomans as part of Europe since you want it. Did they ask other Turks about the issue? In fact we are not accepting of being a part of Europe. The matter is not only related with them.  

Originally posted by azimuth are you one of those turkish who are dying to be westerner?

This is comming from a man who's gas station of a country gives more privilege to westerners than their own native citizens.

Turks are not "trying" to be anyone. If you call westernizing advancing democracy institutions of education and economy, technology, and leaving behind the ignorance that Arabs try to disguise as Islamic, then we are guilty as charged.
 
As for the topic, I don't think the Ottomans should be considered as such. Although the Ottomans were gradually pulled into the European sphere of culture (by the early 1600's) they still had too much flavor that wasn't from Europe (Altai , Islamic, Caucus, etc)

Plus during this time the Turks were still duking it out with Chinese and Manchurians.


Edited by Turk

Originally posted by Thracian

As for the topic, I don't think the Ottomans should be considered as such. Although the Ottomans were gradually pulled into the European sphere of culture (by the early 1600's)
[/QUOTE]

really?

i am sory but i have never heard of such a thing. The ottomans were always who they were - apart from european culture.[/QUOTE]

I know that of course, but you cannot say the Ottoman Turks were the same people they were when they first began their migrations. By European sphere of culture I meant that their culture began to associate more with Europe than Central Asia and their previous Turkic identity. Just as the Magyars and Bulgars became a subgroup of Europe's variety of cultures, the Turks did too. Eventually the Turks had more in common with Greeks, Caucus peoples, and Balkan peoples than they did with other Turkic people or Arabs. I meant in no way to imply that the Ottomans could be grouped with states such as France, Germany, Britain, or central/western Europe at all, because they had nothing in common whatsoever. But for a Turk to deny the East European part of their heritage would be to deny hundreds of years of their own history.

And HulaguHan, the Ottoman armies and navies were far from being completely Greek. There was quite a mix of everyone in the army, because identification in the Ottoman days was based on religion and ethnicity. There were many famous Greek Muslims for example in the Ottoman Navy (Red Beard). Once nationalism came about that of course spelled the inevitable downfall of the Ottoman Empire.



Edited by Turk

Because Greece was a European country, and their culture is mostly common. But Turkey is totally in a different position. The people who ruled our country and tried to be Europeans were all servants of some bigger powers. To improve, you should develope your own culture. Westernisation doesnt mean development. We should improve our own culture and advance like some European countries, but by taking their advancements as useful examples to our advancement, not changing our national identity. But as I see the ones who rules us are changing it on purpose...

Originally posted by Yiannis But you should, if you wish to enter EU, edhere to EU institutions and laws that apply to all countries. Most of them reffer to Human Rights, minority rights, economic reforms and separation of state and military. Some of your state powers will also have to be transfered to EU bodies. E.g. supreme legislative power will be the European court, economic policy will have to be in line with EU directives etc. In my mind, you won't "lose" your cultural identudy with these reforms, you'll rather improve your conditions of living.

Everything is becoming more clear everyday.

EU has nothing to give us. We can develop our standards ourselves. The best example is the new (!!) Turkish penal code which was supported by EU. This is a clear backward move for Turkish democracy.

Moreover it is an obvious fact that the public opinion in Europe is against Turkey and Turks. Even if Turkey fullfill all negotiations with EU, France and Austria has declared that they will hold a referendum to accept Turkey in EU. It means that we will not be accepted into the EU. In addition to this there is not a guarantee that other states will not hold a referandum for Turkey too, for example Cyprus or Sweden. So instead of making virtual plans for the future in the names of EU, we have to establish our own way as soon as possible.

The best country for future alliance is Russia. After the end of cold war our relations with Russia is developing everyday. We are facing the same dangers and we are completing each others. For Caucasia and Central Asia there would be any power that can compete with Russia-Turkish alliance.  

Originally posted by Yiannis Some of your state powers will also have to be transfered to EU bodies. E.g. supreme legislative power will be the European court, economic policy will have to be in line with EU directives etc.

This is like a nightmare. I do not trust that Europeans will act fairly and honestly for Turkey. We will always be a second class member (if we became a member), and we will always be treated as the second class citizen.

Edited by Alparslan

This book can be found very easily: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? userid=5E6K0RIAXe&isbn=0674013859&itm=3 It mentions that Comneni Emperor recognices Mehmet the Conqueror as the Emperor of Romans.

Please people, let's be serious and mention only TRUE historic FACTS not some imaginary fairy-tales!!!!!

The LAST of the Comnenos dynasty was Andronicos Comninos, lived from 1118-1185 and ruled from 1183-1185.

Now Mehmet the Conqueror lived from 1432-1481, so when he ruled would be irrelevant since there is NO WAY that they could have met!!!!

Note that the emperors during his life time were the Paleologos John VII and Constantine XI.
NO Comnenos.

Only Jannissary corps were forming by converted Christians especially between 15th -17th centuries, not the army.

Just something that has to be added. They were converted by force after being abducted from their Christian families and used against them.
A similar tactic used by the Byzantines alot earlier when they used the Vardariots, Pecenek and Kuman Christian Turks against the Crusaders and later against the Seljuks

Oh, yes and about the original topic. No the Ottomans have nothing to do in here.
When we say Greek, Roman & Mediterranean Civilizations as anyone can tell we are talking BC not 14th century.

Edited by Phallanx

Originally posted by Alparslan In addition to this there is not a guarantee that other states will not hold a referandum for Turkey too, for example Cyprus or Sweden.

You seem to have some fixation about Sweden, and it would be nice to know where it came from, I'm getting more curious about that. But just to take some worries away, you won't have to worry about any such thing here - we didn't have a referendum about the Baltic countries which actually was an affair that concerned people, whereas 95% of the population don't care at all whether Turkey joins or not (and the majority of those who does are immigrant Kurds or Turks or leftist fringe groupings).


Edited by Styrbiorn