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The Holy Grail...legend or fact?

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Holy Grail...legend or fact?
    Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 06:43
 
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by gcle2003

Less of a problem than now, admittedly. Remember, though, that while the ancient world happily accepted that gods sometimes impregnated human females, such females were not subsequently seen as virgins.
 
I doubt that in any society a woman who had a baby would have been considered a virgin, certainly at the time.


But isn't there a key difference? In the case of most of the pagan myths the gods usually engaged in physical intercourse with the women who bore their children. In the case of Mary, the Holy Spirit is said to have descended upon her.

Are there pre-Christian myths in which impregnation was not a result of physical intercourse? I don't doubt that there are, but I'd be interested to learn about them.
The one that springs immediately to mind is Danae, who conceives Perseus after being visited by Zeus as a shower of rain.
 
Then there's Athena, who springs from Zeus's forehead after he had swallowed her mother. (And incidentally there appears to be another Athena myth in which she is a mother after a rape attempt that failed, yet she remains a virgin.)
 
In retaliation for Zeus giving birth to Athena, Hera is supposed to have conceived Hephaestus without any male involvement at all. 


Edited by gcle2003 - 28-Jul-2007 at 06:44
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 06:56
Originally posted by gcle2003


The one that springs immediately to mind is Danae, who conceives Perseus after being visited by Zeus as a shower of rain.
 
Then there's Athena, who springs from Zeus's forehead after he had swallowed her mother. (And incidentally there appears to be another Athena myth in which she is a mother after a rape attempt that failed, yet she remains a virgin.)
 
In retaliation for Zeus giving birth to Athena, Hera is supposed to have conceived Hephaestus without any male involvement at all.


Interesting, interesting.

I guess out of those choices the most analogous situation would be that of Danae and Perseus, as the others had to do with divine females. Many thanks for the lesson. Smile

Still, wouldn't the key difference be that while the shower of rain is a physical manifestation of Zeus' power, the Spirit is said to have descended upon Mary in an incorporeal manner?

-Akolouthos

P.S. Sorry if I don't reply tonight; I've stayed up far too late already.



Edited by Akolouthos - 28-Jul-2007 at 06:59
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 08:12
Good work gcle2003, but didn't Zeus visit in a shower of gold? I thought of that one, but wasn't quite sure of  the virginity of Danae. You are right of  course in that the gods always came first. The god thing happened with Rhea Silvia the mother of Romulus and Remus. As a vestal Virgin she was  taken by Mars the god of war and gave birth to the founders of Rome. When born they were set adrift in a reed boat on the river Tiber to die of exposure, but a she wolf found and suckled them until the shepherd Faustulus found then and took them to his home to raise as his own.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 14:06
Originally posted by Akolouthos

He was of the house of David. That said, Tradition holds that Mary was also of Davidic lineage.


Only via a rather shaky interpretation of certain wording. This was a key debate in the early church actually.

Moreover, being of the house of David, or receiving Davidic lineage through Mary, does not qualify him as a candidate for fulfillment of prophecy or Messiahdom. The text is very clear that it must be a descendant from an unbroken line of sons, pure paternal lineage, and it cannot be adoptive - it must be of the flesh of David (it literally says that the seed must "proceed from the bowels").

Though it is sometimes necessary, the necessity does not separate the act from the sinfulness necessitated by the Fall.


Regretting the necessity of violence is not the same thing as pacifism.

Im fairly certain that the Arians did not doubt the Virgin Birth.-Akolouthos


You can easily confirm this is wholly untrue with but a cursory examination. The core essence of Arianism is that Jesus was a man on whom the spirit descended at baptism.

"Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten."

-Arius, in a letter to Eusebius

Edited by edgewaters - 28-Jul-2007 at 14:13
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 14:39
 
Originally posted by elenos

Good work gcle2003, but didn't Zeus visit in a shower of gold? I thought of that one, but wasn't quite sure of  the virginity of Danae.
 
It's a matter of translation. I think the commonest version is that she was visited by a shower of golden rain. But I'm no Greek scholar. It could have rained a shower of gold Smile
 
You are right of  course in that the gods always came first. The god thing happened with Rhea Silvia the mother of Romulus and Remus. As a vestal Virgin she was  taken by Mars the god of war and gave birth to the founders of Rome. When born they were set adrift in a reed boat on the river Tiber to die of exposure, but a she wolf found and suckled them until the shepherd Faustulus found then and took them to his home to raise as his own.
I'd be interested in knowing how Hindus account for the incarnation of Vishnu in Krishna, but Krishna's mother was no virgin since he was her eighth son.
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 15:40
That's never a problem. Before conception the mother goes for a bath in the sacred river, in this case the Ganges and her virginity is restored. The Nile had the same reputation for restoring the maidenhead of the sacred mother.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 17:29
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Akolouthos

He was of the house of David. That said, Tradition holds that Mary was also of Davidic lineage.
Only via a rather shaky interpretation of certain wording. This was a key debate in the early church actually.

Moreover, being of the house of David, or receiving Davidic lineage through Mary, does not qualify him as a candidate for fulfillment of prophecy or Messiahdom. The text is very clear that it must be a descendant from an unbroken line of sons, pure paternal lineage, and it cannot be adoptive - it must be of the flesh of David (it literally says that the seed must "proceed from the bowels").
 
A shaky interpretation, eh? Let's discuss shaky interpretation. Wink
 
Among the fathers who support the claim that Mary was of Davidic lineage, Irenaeus stands out. This is especially true in light of the fact that he answers your objection rather succinctly:
 
And when He says, "Hear, O house of David," He performed the part of one indicaring that He whom God promised David that He would raise up from the fruit of his belly (ventris) an eternal King, is the same who was born of the Virgin, herself of the lineage of David. For on this account also, He promised that the King should be "of the fruit of his belly," which was the appropriate [term to use with respect] to a virgin conceiving, and not "of the fruit of his loins," nor "of the fruit of his reins," which expression is appropriate to a generating man, and a woman conceiving by a man.
[Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., 3.21]
 
In essence, the fact that Mary was a virgin is what fulfilled 2 Sam 7: 12. Irenaeus continues:
 
In this promise, therefore, the Scripture excluded all virile influence; yet it certainly is not mentioned that He who was born was not from the will of man. But it has fixed and established "the fruit of the belly," that it might declare the generation of Him who should be [born] from the Virgin, as Elisabeth testified when filled with the Holy Ghost, saying to Mary,  "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy belly;" the Holy Ghost pointing out to those willing to hear, that the promise  which God had made, of raising up a King from the fruit of [David's] belly, was fulfilled in the birth from the Virgin, that is, from Mary. Let  those, therefore, who alter the passage of Isaiah thus, "Behold, a young woman shall conceive," and who will have Him to be Joseph's son, also alter the form of the promise which was given to David, when God promised him to raise up, from the fruit of his belly, the horn of Christ the King. But they did not understand, otherwise they would have presumed to alter even this passage also.
[Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., 3.21]
 
The orthodox position is wholly consistent. Other early witnesses to Mary's Davidic lineage include Tertullian, Eusebius, and Augustine. I'm afraid you will have to provide some examples if you feel that there was a large amount of debate among the fathers.
 
Originally posted by edgewaters

Regretting the necessity of violence is not the same thing as pacifism.
 
Absolutely correct.
 
Originally posted by edgewaters

You can easily confirm this is wholly untrue with but a cursory examination. The core essence of Arianism is that Jesus was a man on whom the spirit descended at baptism.

"Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten."
-Arius, in a letter to Eusebius
 
You might want to make that examination a bit less cursory. LOL
 
If you read the entire document from which you took that excerpt, you would realize that the claim that the Son is begotten and the implicit reference to the Father as agennetos (unbegotten), in the context of Arius' letter, refers to their pre-temporal ontological characteristics. For the orthodox, the terms monogenis (only-begotten) and agennetos, refer to the etiological rather than the ontological properties of the first and second persons of the Trinity. Neither party, in using this language, is referring to the Incarnation, the human birth of Christ.
 
The issue is actually extraordinarily complex, and requires a fair bit of understanding of the context in which the Arians were making their claims. Arius believed that the Son had "subsisted before time, and before ages, as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before He was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, He was not." In the context of his letter, in which he was trying to explain his dispute with the orthodox to Eusebius, Arius' comments regarding generation cannot be taken to refer to His physical birth. Eusebius certainly didn't take Arius' comments as referring to the Virgin Mary, as his subsequent epistle to Paulinus--which is also extant--clearly shows. With the neo-Arians, it gets a bit trickier. If you wish, we could discuss them as well.
 
That said, while I remain unconvinced, I am not necessarily unable to be convinced. I haven't been able to find any reputable sources wherein it is asserted that the Arians denied the Virgin Birth, and I think it would be odd for them to do so, given that they accepted the same Scriptures. Still, their exegetical perspective often differed significantly from that of the orthodox. I guess that's an unnecessarily long way of saying that I am open to discussion on this point. Smile
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 28-Jul-2007 at 17:43
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 23:46

There can be no doubt the early Christian Church took the established religious stories of Europe and assimilated them fopr their own. In the legend of Grail Quest the Christian knights such as Percival and Galahad set forth to find the Holy Grail, the chalice used by Jesus at the Last Supper. The grail was brought to England by Joseph of Arimathea, but hundreds of years later was stolen from the chapel inside Camelot.

The many stories of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table usually say the knight who found the Holy Grail was Sir Percival. His mother had brought him up in a lonely forest to prevent him from following his father who ran away from his family. Without a father and ignorant of the ways of world Parsifal grew. Then one day he saw some knights, and rode off with them to become a knight of the Grail.

For all the Arthur fans there is more than one story and told in many ways across Europe. In the English version Arthur died by wound given by his son, Mordred, who tried to usurp the kingdom while Arthur was overseas. The more ancient Fisher King cycle tells how King Arthur had the Spear of Destiny snatched from his hands and turned against him. It was thrust into his groin and from then onward the wound never healed. The ailing King called a hundred knights to go into the far ends of the world. He wanted them find the Holy Grail and bring it to him. Then he may drink the elixir of life and by living he would forever save his land from destruction by fire or water.

The chosen knights knew they would never again see each other or their beloved King again yet left on the quest immediately. The years passed and Camelot became more desolate. He lived on but Camelot the beautiful wasted away, the wind howled through the barren trees of the surrounding wasteland. Sometimes a peasant would wander into the King's dusty bedchamber to find a lonely old man inquiring about the Grail Knights. When told of their deaths, he crossed them off, one by one.

He lost all hope when Sir Parsifal the Pure arrived, the youngest and most naive of them all. He told of the death of the last knight other than himself. Only the tarot fool, the joker in the pack had returned so the King decided to lay down and die. Parsifal tried comfort the sobbing man. The King just asked him for a cup of water and try and not trip up on the way back. All Parsifal could find was a chipped and discarded wooden bowl and He filled it from the water of a muddy spring. When Parsifal trickled water from the bowl onto the King's dying lips he came back to life and grabbed the bowl. Parsifal had found the Holy Grail, for it had been within reach all the time.

Some say Arthur's body now lies in a hidden cave, with the golden horn of justice by his side. When our planet is in danger by pollution of earth, sky and water we need find that horn. With one blast upon it, Arthur and his knights will rise again to battle against those who destroy the vital mother essence of this world by their greed.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2017 at 03:08
I am not sure whether i would have been allowed to start a new topic/thread? on this since i don't like idea of this being lost/hidden by pages posts before & after, but no matter.
There is also another topic http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19798
(AE has an article on the HG too at http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=The_Holy_Grail_Sacred_Cup_or_Female_Prophet .)

I tried posting on hancock forum yesterday but said was moderated and hasn't been approved apparently?
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,257991

I have several threads and leads for the Grail which i have yet to write properly on. In this post i am only touching on just two. May post a few more afterwards.

0. first a list of the main extant Holy Grail/Chalice candidates/locations theories, and a timeline:

List of some of the main theories:
Valencia chalice (Bennett),
Genoa chalice,
Antioch chalice,
Dona Urraca chalice,
Nanteos cup, Herefordshire,
Shropshire stargate (OJB),
Frampton mosaic (Karen Han),
Shroud of Turin (Scavone, Bullen),
Ark of Covenant (Hancock) / Ethiopia (Hancock),
glass vessel Dover &/or glass vessel Burgh (me),
Sutton Hoo vessel (me),
Udu's bowl (Waddell),
Mary (Goering, Hancock) / Sara (Brown) / Rosslyn chapel (Brown),
horn of Achelous (Peron),
hawkstone Grail (Phillips),
chiemsee(bucht) / ising Switzerland/Germany,
under Basilica of San Lorenzo Fuorile Mura, Rome (Barbagallo),
cosmological/solar / indian (Schroeder) &/or indo-european (A Jacob),
(drinking) horn of Bran (Galed) &/or Bran's cauldron (Loomis),
greal & Amen the cauldron of Ceridwen (Sykes, Cotterell),
Lia Fail/Fal/Falias &/or cauldron of bounty/Dagda?
Montsegur castle of Cathars in Pyrenees (Godwin);
Shugborough (Baigent/Lincoln/Leigh, Brown, Kemp, Lawn);
Rennes Le Chateau;
Montserrat Catalonia.

Timeline:
Valencia chalice (chalcedony) 4th cent bc - 1st cent ad
Jesus, last supper, Gethsemane, crucifiction
Philip, Joseph of Arimathea 63 *
Eucharistus/Evaristus 79 / 97/99-105/107
Hawkstone Grail 1st cent
Valerian / Sixtus 2 / Lawrence / Proselius 258 *
"Valencia chalice 262 ad"
"this most-famous chalice", "until 4th cent" ?
Chrysostom 347-407
Arthur 400 yrs / "516-537"
silver-gilt Antioch chalice ear / 1st half of 6th cent
life of St Laurence (Donato) 6th cent ?
Arculf 7th cent *
(post)Vulgate "717" / c 1230
"Dona Urraca chalice, 11th cent"
Genoa chalice (green glass/"emerald", Embriaco (Caesarea) 1101
Valencia chalice, Don Carreras Ramirez 1134
Malmesbury/interpolations ear 12th cent
Mary holding bowl, churches Catalan Pyrenees 12th cent (predate Troyes)
Valencia chalice (dark red agate, 2 handles) 12th cent
Abp William of Tyre 12th cent
** Troyes 1180-91 **
Boron  1180/1191-1199/1202
Chartres 1195-1200
Kyot/Guyot de Provins 12th cent
Kyot/Eschenbach 1195-1200/1210
Barbezieux late 12th - ear 13th
(post)Vulgate "717" / c 1230
Voragine 1290s
Genoa chalice towards end of 13th cent
Rochefoucauld 1315-25 / 14th cent
Valencia chalice & a gold cup, 1399
Oja Church frescos 14th cent
Nanteos cup medieval / 14th cent / at least 1400 yrs after crucifiction
Tafur 1436
Malory 1471
2 grails (Euro & Ethiop), 'Adoration of the Magi', Albert Durer 1471-1528
life of St Laurence, 17th cent
Hawkstone 18th cent
Genoa chalice, Napoleon 1805
Genoa chalice returned 1816
Dante Rossetti 1828-82
Tennyson 1857-85
Nanteos cup 1878 / end of 19th cent
Wagner 1882
Nanteos cup late 19th cent, ear 20th cent / 1905
Antioch chalice 1910
Schroeder 1910
Hawkstone grail 1920
Evola 1937
Helen Adolf 1947
Nanteos cup displayed 1977
Valencia chalice, John Paul 2, 1982
Baigent 1982/3
Indiana Jones 1989
Loomis 1991
Hancock 1992
Jung/Franz 1998
Brown 2003
Barber 2004
Phillips 2004
Bennett 2004 (Catholic)
Goering 2005
Valencia chalice, Benedict 16, 5th World Meeting of Families, 2006
Dona Urraca chalice 2014
Nanteos Cup (wooden) stolen & recovered Herefordshire 2014-15-16.

1. Arthurian Grail:

In our discovery that "(King) Arthur's" 12 battles 9 battle site match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth (Norfolk) to Portchester (Hants) we found some possible Grail matches connections:

"an extremely important glass vessel" at Dover/Dubris [= Guinnion (& = Badon 1)]?
Genuissa ~ (Mary of) Guinnion "white, holy" ~ Guinevere (Modena Archivolt) ~ Grail ~ glass vessel?
(Dover perpetually white ~ holy/virgin.)
Grail stone ~ Bredenstone??

Celtic glass vessel of/from early 5th century a.d. at Burgh castle [= Glein (which some consider to be related to or from *glan/*glein "pure/clear" or gleno "holy"?)] (Grail [~ Igraine?] ~ Glein?)

Those are the 2 main ones, there are also/alternatively some other minor possibilities including:

place name Sarre near Reculver / Thanet / Richborough.

grail-like vessel in Fishbourne mosaic.
Fisher king ~ Fishbourne palace?

Italian dish, & some Celtic bowls? & bucket/silver bowl/platter "from Byzantium" in the Sutton Hoo ship burial treasure.

vessel/bowls/dish/beaker/vase/juglet in the Hoxne hoard.

great dish/vessels/bowls/dishes/platers/plates in the Mildenhall treasure.


2. Biblical / Roman / "Aryan" Grail:

Holy Grail/Chalice (cup) [= Liahona?] (= vessel held by empress Theodora?) = golden cup of harlot Babylon [Rome] (Revelation 15) = woman with cup on coin of pope Leo 12.

Grail = wine-mixing vessel = mystery (&) harlot (&) Babylon ["confusion, mixture, babble"] (Roman Catholic mixed christian and pagan religions) [& Thyatira?]

(grail = wine-mixing vessel = mystic beverages "composed of wine, honey, water & flour"?)

([un]holy) Grail = wine-mixing vessel = wine/blood of the harlot Babylon [Rome] = "turn wine into water" (Daily Blog) = fluoridated (& other ingredients) tap water = fluoride is a new Latin word.

holy grail "= lotion" / "= fresh water" / "= aqua vitae" / "health" = inverted poison/harmful Fluoridated (& other ingredients) tap (& bottled) water (= "kool-aid") = "poison mixed with honey from a golden goblet" (Nennius).

Grail = "(by) degree, (by) stages" = mystery (Babylon) (& "depths of Satan"?) [& nicolatines?]

Holy Grail = stone = Peter = "pope(s)" = Rome.

Grail/crater = stone/lapis = Zeus ("= Jesus") = Jupiter ("= Peter")

Holy Grail = Marian Chalice = Mary/Eve (= Isis = harlot Babylon) = Roman Catholic.

Repanse de Schoye = damsel/maiden bare of the holy grail = harlot Babylon [Rome]?

"chaste"/"holy" = kadesh = sacred harlots = harlot Babylon.

holy grail = post-Vulgate/Romance = Latin/Jerome = Roman = harlot "Bablyon". (Numen also Roman. Evola also Roman.)

holy Grail = "true/real/royal/holy blood" = the 1st 40+ "popes" really match Roman emperors (= Francis 2 gave Eliz 2 orb with cross on which BBC said symbolises "christian" royal dominion over whole globe.)

(Repanse de) Joie / (Rapanse de) Shoye &/or (Chretien de) Troyes (& Paris) = (Helen of) Troy (& Paris) / Trojan blood = royal blood = sangreal / holy grail = Romans & Britons from Trojan [= Troy connected with Atlantis (Zangger)?]

holy grail stone fell from sky = kingship desc from heaven (Sumerian kinglist).
grail stone fell from sky = "nephilim vs followers of Jesus".

holy grail = holy/royal blood = king(s) of Atlantis [= "Aryans" (Arthurian/Odinist/Roman)?]

Jesus blood caught in (gold) grail = 10 blood clots of slain bull caught in cup/vessel (& drawn in golden vessels) by king(s) of Atlantis [= "Aryans" from Atlantis/Tiahuanaco?] = harlot Babylon [Rome] riding 10 head/king beast [EU/G7] in Revelation/Apocalypse 15.

Jesus blood caught in (golden) holy grail = blood dropped in mercy seat of holy Ark of Covenant underneath Skull Hill / Gordon's Calvary near the Garden Tomb (Ron Wyatt) = ark-like object carried before "pope" Gregory the Great? &/or ark at Monreale Sicily?

(Jung &) Franz = pope Francis?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 05-Apr-2017 at 05:20
It is wrong/evil/slavery that i am being Forced (no equal options choice) by the elite authorities & my disadvantaged situation to eat (lots of) Fluoridated (etc) water every meal (grains) every day.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2017 at 09:08
It looks like Hancock's grail/ark theory is right.

Helen of Troy = Repanse/Rapanse de Joye/Shoye (= Queen of Sheba?)
Menelaus = Menelik
Thon(is) = (Prester) John
Egypt/Mediterranean = Ethiopia
Troy = Troyes
[Paris (Troy)&/or Perceval &/or Feirifez = Paris (France)?]
[2 grails (Euro & Ethiop), 'Adoration of the Magi', Al Durer 1471-1528]
[Gala-had ~ Gra-ham(_Hancock)?]

However, there are clearly at least two or more original grails in the overall Holy Grail/Chalice cycle.
It is wrong/evil/slavery that i am being Forced (no equal options choice) by the elite authorities & my disadvantaged situation to eat (lots of) Fluoridated (etc) water every meal (grains) every day.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2017 at 13:28
There are many who believe the grail is a reference to the blood line of Christ and not a cup. I'm one of those.


"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2017 at 02:47
Interetsing, do you care to give/discuss any further info on that?
If bible is true then the real "Jesus"/Yeshua can't have had any physical children (though his brothers/sisters / cousins could have).
This gives me two new entries:

The "Jesus Christ" of Guinnion of Arthur may be Julius Caesar (who landed near Dover/Deal) = Arthurian = holy grail = sanreal "holy/royal blood" = blood line of Jesus (or his brother/cousin) =  the Roman "Jesus" is either Zeus or Julius Caesar or Augustus Caesar or Claudius (since the 1st 40+ "popes" really match the Roman emperors list) = Genuissa/Gwenwisa daughter of Caesar or of Claudius = Ambrosius/Aurelius wore purple (= Aurelius is Roman name meaning "golden, fine, excellent") = Arthur was "emperor" and took "Rome".

Arthurian holy grail = sanreal "holy/royal blood" = blood line of Jesus (or his brother/cousin) =  the Roman "Jesus" is either Zeus or Julius Caesar or Augustus Caesar or Claudius (since the 1st 40+ "popes" really match the Roman emperors list)  = Welsh Tudors descs of "David" = Britons decs of Trojan Brutus = Romans decs of Trojan Aeneas = "Trojan war time of Samson" (Jerome) = "Brutus time of Eli" (Geoff of Monmouth) = Rapanse de Schoye matches Helen of Troy and/or Queen of Sheba (and/or Rose of Sharon)?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 06-Apr-2017 at 04:44
It is wrong/evil/slavery that i am being Forced (no equal options choice) by the elite authorities & my disadvantaged situation to eat (lots of) Fluoridated (etc) water every meal (grains) every day.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2017 at 12:31
I've never seen anything in the Bible that would have excluded Christ having children.
As he was a Jew, it would have been expected he marry by 30 years.

AR, I'm surprised that you've missed this line of thought.

The idea is that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had children.
The children or their descendants, went to S. France and founded the Merovingian Dynasty.
The surrounding theories get into the Cathars, and the Templars. Check into the "hooked x" idea.
Where I don't buy into the existence of the "Priory of Scion", the rest of it is difficult to dismiss out of hand.













Edited by red clay - 06-Apr-2017 at 12:37
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2017 at 06:55
I hadn't missed the theories of Jesus/Yeshua (or James) & Mary & Sara (or Barabbas) & Merovingians & Priory of Sion of the likes of Baigent/Lincoln/Leigh &/or Brown, i just thought/felt it was not very strong/convincing evidence theory as regards the Grail.
The bible is condisered to imply that Yeshua was the son of God and celebate and that he was crucified and then ascended to heaven (after saying "don't touch/cling-to me" to Mary M.) I have indeed heard it is true that eunuchs were not looked on favourably in Jewish culture. (I wish God had ot me married by 30 years.)

I had thought you might have meant something bit different like maybe Scottish/Irish, or Roman. (What i have been trying to do is to get to the real hidden grail thread or grails threads of history, the global elite, and biblical.)
I did somewhat miss (the importance of) the Irish/Scottish/Masonic grail connection.

lia fail "sacred stone" = (Liahona =) Holy Grail ("stone/emerald/golden") = Knights of Round Table = Eochaid "knight" = (Knights) Templars = Masons = Scots = princess Scot(i)a (dtr of Pharaoh Achenres) = princess Rapanse de Schoye/Joye (= Helen of Troy) = Queen of Sheba (= Rose of Sharon) = Ark of the Covenant (seat, Ethiopia) = 'Kingdom of the Ark' ("link between Egypt & Ireland") by Lorraine Evans [= Lorraine Cross? Troyes/Chartes?]

However i can't find any (direct) link of Irish/Scottish grail with blood line of Jesus, except unless name James/Jacob(ite) of the Stuarts/Scots links with James brother of Jesus somehow?

Aetius & Pharamond & Merovech/Merovingian (France) = Aedesius & Frumentius & Meropius or Meroe (Ethiopia)?
And/or,
Merovingian (France) = Syagrius/Sigonius or Aetius/Aegidius (Ile de France/Gaul, Roman)?

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2017 at 22:04
Sorry i found out i made stupid dumb mistake (we can "thank" the water poisoners for all such). Tentative Correction (any/all could still be wrong) :

Merovee/Merovech/Merovingian (France) = Menelik (= Manasseh?) or Meropius or Meroe (Ethiopia) or Melchizedek?

Pharamond (France) = Pharaoh or Frumentius (Ethiopia)?

[Aetius/Aegidius = Aedesius (Ethiopia)?]

Priory of Sion (1152/78) = Prester John (1145/65/77)? or St Mary of Zion (in Axum the "New Jerusalem/Zion", in Ethiopia the "New Zion/Israel")?

Grail cup caught drops of Jesus blood = gomer shallow bowl in which  sacrifice blood collected (Tana/Ethiopia)?

Mary Magdalene = Makeda (Q of Sheba)?

Sara "princess" = princess Scota = princess Rapanse de Schoye =  princess Sophie?

[Joseph of Aramathea ~ AbbaSalama/Frumentius? &/or Athanasius? or Amharic?]

"The Golden Ark of The Covenant" ~ The GAOTU?

?galathea/galathes ~ Gaythelos/Gaodhal/Gaedel_Glas ~ Galawdewos/Claudius ~ Galahad?

?S(c)ion ~ Scone ~ Scota ~ Shoa ~ Schoye (~ Sheba/South) ~ Sophie/Sophia?

[?Shangri-la =] SanGrail/Sangreal "stone" (or Mary) = "a rock on which Mary rested on her journey back from Egypt"* / "a large stratum of rock" (olivine-bearing basalt, Tana Kirkos island, lake Tana/Tsana/Sana Hayk) = Ark was on Tana Kirkos.

[* Possibly compare 'St Mary on the Rock' of Fife which is analogous to St Mary in Castro of Dover which matches Mary of fort Guinnion?]

Sara ~ Sarras ~ Zarragossa ~ Zara Yaqob (Tana)?


Plus, one possible Irish/Scottish/Jacobite/Masonic [contrived] (direct) link with "blood line of Jesus":
"Crimson/Red Branch" (Irish/Scottish) = "holy blood line of Jesus" = sangreal = holy grail caught drops of Jesus' blood.


Also, an update of the timeline:

Udu's bowl, .... bc
Ark of the Covenant .... - ... bc
Valencia chalice (chalcedony) 4th cent bc - 1st cent ad
Mary, Jesus, last supper, Gethsemane, crucifiction
Philip, Joseph of Arimathea 63/76 ad (42 yrs) *
Eucharistus/Evaristus 79 / 97/99-105/107
Hawkstone Grail 1st cent
Tertullian glass chalice 160-220
Valerian / Sixtus 2/5 / Lawrence / Proselius 258 *
"Valencia chalice 262 ad"
"this most-famous chalice", "until 4th cent" ?
shrine over St Lawrence martyrdom site 4th cent
Chrysostom 347-407
Arthur 400 yrs / "516-537"
Merovinginians
(SLFlM 580)
silver-gilt Antioch chalice ear / 1st half of 6th cent
life of St Laurence (Donato) 6th cent ?
Arculf 7th cent *
(post)Vulgate "717" / c 1230
"Dona Urraca chalice, Leon, 11th cent"
Genoa chalice (green glass/"emerald", Embriaco (Caesarea) 1101
Valencia chalice, Don Carreras Ramirez 1134
Malmesbury/interpolations ear 12th cent
Priory of Sion charter 1152 & 1178
Mary holding bowl, churches Catalan Pyrenees 12th cent (predate Troyes)
Valencia chalice (dark red agate, 2 handles) 12th cent
Abp William of Tyre 12th cent
** Troyes 1180-91 **
Boron  1180/1191-1199/1202
lady chapel / st Jose's chapel 1186
Kyot/Guyot de Provins 12th cent (shortly bef 1187)
sir Coules del Grail 1189
Chartres 1195-1200
Kyot/Eschenbach 1195-1200/1210
Barbezieux late 12th - ear 13th
(post)Vulgate "717" / by c 1230
Scharfenberg 1270-5
Voragine 1290s
Genoa chalice towards end of 13th cent
a grail & a chalice 1308
Rochefoucauld 1315-25 / 14th cent
Valencia chalice & a gold cup, 1399
Oja Church frescos 14th cent
Nanteos cup medieval / 14th cent / at least 1400 yrs after crucifiction
Tafur 1436
DaVinci 1452-1519
Malory 1471
LaSN 15th cent
2 grails (Euro & Ethiop), 'Adoration of the Magi', Albert Durer 1471-1528
litany of Loretto 16th cent
life of St Laurence, 17th cent
Hawkstone 18th cent
Genoa chalice, Napoleon 1805
Genoa chalice returned 1816
Dante Rossetti 1828-82
Tennyson 1857-85
Nanteos cup 1878 / end of 19th cent
Wagner 1882
nutt 1888
Grail tapestries 1890
Abbe Sauniere, Rennes le Chateau 1891
Chiemsee 1st yrs of 20th cent / Nazis
Nanteos cup late 19th cent, ear 20th cent / 1905
Remy 1909
Antioch chalice 1910
Schroeder 1910
Hawkstone grail 1920
Grail women's movement 1921
Aburushin / Grail Movt 1928 / 1938-41 / late in 1945 / late 1940s
Waddell 1929/1930
Hitler as grail knight poster 1936
Evola 1937
Helen Adolf 1947
Falconer 1953/1998
Grail psalms 1963
Nanteos cup displayed 1977
Valencia chalice, John Paul 2, 1982
Baigent/Lincoln/Leigh 1982/3
Indiana Jones 1989
Loomis 1991
Hancock 1992
starbird 1993
Jung/Franz 1998
"21st cent grail"
Chiemsee 2001-2/2007
Brown 2003
3psi\0n 2003
Barber 2004
Phillips 2004
Bennett 2004 (Catholic)
Goering 2005
McGoodwin 2006
Valencia chalice, Benedict 16, 5th World Meeting of Families, 2006
Barbagallo 2007
Dona Urraca chalice 2014
Nanteos Cup (wooden) stolen & recovered Herefordshire 2014-5-6



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Apr-2017 at 05:08
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  Quote .Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2017 at 16:23
The myth of the cup goes back to the story of Joseph in Pharaoh's prison 

Genesis 40; 9-13
So the chief cupbearer told Joseph his dream. He said to him, “In my dream I saw a vine in front of me, and on the vine were three branches. As soon as it budded, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into Pharaoh’s cup and put the cup in his hand.”

“This is what it means,” Joseph said to him. “The three branches are three days. Within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your position, and you will put Pharaoh’s cup in his hand, just as you used to do when you were his cupbearer. 

Pharaoh = God
cupbearer = Jesus
3 days in prison = 3 days in the grave



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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2017 at 15:25
Good one Sid, kick myself i don't think i thought of that (the bad tap water every meal doesn't help me). True enough, though there are more than one threads & cups interwoven in. Harlot holding cup can't quite be same as cup of Joseph (though Christ was crucified by Romans).
Of course the cup bearer is blood of the lamb of God, while the baker is the law/works. Just like Abel & Cain.
So we have 4 Josephs: Joseph son of Jacob, Joseph step father of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Joseph Cartaphilus (Wandering Jew?)
Do you think it might connect with Ark in Ethiopia, since Joseph story is in Egypt next door?
There is another cup in sons of noah picture in wikipedia article on sons of noah / 70 nations, similar to cup in 3 magi picture.
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  Quote .Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2017 at 15:38
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Good one Sid, kick myself i don't think i thought of that (the bad tap water every meal doesn't help me). True enough, though there are more than one threads & cups interwoven in. Harlot holding cup can't quite be same as cup of Joseph (though Christ was crucified by Romans).
Of course the cup bearer is blood of the lamb of God, while the baker is the law/works. Just like Abel & Cain.
So we have 4 Josephs: Joseph son of Jacob, Joseph step father of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Joseph Cartaphilus (Wandering Jew?)
Do you think it might connect with Ark in Ethiopia, since Joseph story is in Egypt next door?
There is another cup in sons of noah picture in wikipedia article on sons of noah / 70 nations, similar to cup in 3 magi picture.

The other cupbearer in Joseph's story is Benjamin, his only full brother and, like Joseph, the beloved son of Israel/Jacob. The story in Genesis is that Joseph (as Lord of Egypt) secreted his silver cup in Benjamin's baggage, forcing Benjamin to become his slave, but also leading Joseph to reveal his true self to his brothers. In effect Joseph, by passing his silver cup (which he used at formal banquets and in divination) to Benjamin, was making Benjamin his cupbearer.

Joseph and Benjamin were the children of Rachel, the younger daughter of Laban. Joseph and his half brothers were born in Laban's household, where Jacob was living in servitude. When Jacob secretly left Laban's household with his family, Laban pursued claiming that someone had stolen his 'teraphim'.

The guilty party was Rachel, who concealed her theft by sitting on the objects and claiming that she was menstruating and so could not stand up! What 'teraphim' really were is a bit of a mystery. Laban viewed them as 'his gods' and they were used in divination, but some have suggested that they were ancestral bones, in particular the skull - and skulls are very easily made into drinking vessels!

So we have an image here of Rachel bleeding into a skull-cup; a cup which she conceals and might well have passed onto her sons (Joseph and Benjamin). Joseph symbolically passes his concealed cup to his brother Benjamin, and Benjamin is supposedly the ancestor to Mary Magdalene who some claim is herself the 'Holy Grail' (as the carrier of the bloodline of Jesus).  

There has always been a kind of rivalry between the Tribes of Benjamin and Judah over the rulership of God's people. Jerusalem, God's Holy City, was right on the border territory between the lands of Judah and Benjamin, and was apportioned to the Benjamites. Benjamin himself was supposedly born in Bethlehem (Ephrath in Bethel), a significant place also for King David and Jesus. King Saul (Tribe of Benjamin) was the first Holy appointed King of Israel, but he was usurped by David (Tribe of Judah). Earlier Judges of Israel seemed to swap between being descendents of Judah and descendants of Benjamin or his full brother Joseph. Even David's descendant, Jesus, had his teachings overwhelmed by the interpretations given to them by St.Paul (a Benjaminite)! 

Benjamin's conception is also an interesting episode. Whilst it is not made explicit, Rachel (she of the bleeding cup) only conceived Benjamin after Jacob had been renamed 'Israel', following an episode where he wrestled with an angel (or God) and had been touched by this opponent on the inner thigh (his genitals). So God touched Jacob's genitals, who then impregnated Rachel, who then conceived Benjamin! Rachel died giving birth to this child sprung from blessed genitals and holy blood, and named him Ben-oni - 'son of vigour'. 'Oni' has the same meaning as 'Onan', that son of Judah who was famous for his masturbating - so 'oni' probably refers specifically to sexual vigour.




Edited by .Sidney - 27-Jun-2017 at 15:45
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2017 at 13:18
The Benjamin and Joseph's cup is another good interesting one thanks. Do you have any source or historical basis for the rest though? Is "Rachel" linked with the princesses (Sara, Repanse, Helen, etc) we linked in the post a couple of posts ago? Gets abit too rude at the end.
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  Quote .Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2017 at 17:44
Rachel means "ewe". She died when Benjamin was born.

When Joseph blessed his sons, he said of Benjamin - “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.”

So at the start of his life (the morning), Benjamin consumed the life of (devoured) his mother (the ewe/prey). At night (at the end of his life, or at the end of this Tribe of Israel?) he shall divide (share out) the spoil (his inheritance). The question is - was this inheritance the bloodline/sacred cup, and who was to share in it?


Edited by .Sidney - 03-Jul-2017 at 17:44
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