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The Holy Grail...legend or fact?

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  Quote QueenCleopatra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Holy Grail...legend or fact?
    Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 10:35
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Blood_Holy_Grail
 
Since the publishing in 1982 of the controversial novel Holy Blood and the Holy Grail the Grail legend has captured the public imagination. Dan Browne ensured the controversy continued with The Da Vinci Code.
 
Everyone has their own ideas about what or who the grail may be and where it could be hidden.
 
Everyone from the Cathars to the modern day Freemasons have been suggested as having connections to the legend.
 
So what do you think? Fact or fiction? If fact where is it now? Is it possible that Jesus may have had descentants some of who are walking the earth today?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 16:33

The historical  holy grail was never a person.  Nor was it an ornate cup.  Rather the holy grail was simply the cup that was readily available to Jesus at the Last Supper.

As Jesus ate the meal in the home of a moderatly wealthy person, the cup used by Christ could have been either ceramic or perhaps beaten or cast bronze.    I seriously doubt that it would have been a truly remarkable cup in regards to appereance (the owner was not truly wealthy and Jesus preferred modesty).   After the last supper, the cup was washed along with the 12 other similar appearing cups, placed in a cabinet and then discarded several years later. 
 
No conspiracies, no hidden secrets and no mysteries.


Edited by Cryptic - 20-Apr-2007 at 17:04
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  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 16:25
Well, I think the person coming closer to what the grail really is, must be American comic writer Hal Foster who, in Prince Valiant, claimed that it was the pursue of the good in your own heart, something like that.
 
However, most information that comes from Holy Blood, Holy Grails is not true, only based on legends or hoaxes, for instance the existence of Priory of Sion.
 
Personally I don't believe in the holy grail, at least not as an item of Christian lore connected to Jesus Christ. It appears way too late in Christian legends to make me believe in it.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 17:50
The legend was probably a medieval invention. In old Northern European legends stretching back to pre-christian times. There are several cups with magical qualities popping up in them (such as the cauldron of the Irish God The Dagda or the cup of the British King Bran). All seem to have the quality of bringing the dead back to life or healing by drinking from them. The cup King Arthur is searching for is almost certainly the cup of Bran not Jesus.
 
As with most other pagan legends and holy days, the medieval church converted by incorperating local mythos into their own.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 22-Apr-2007 at 17:51
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 20:09
Originally posted by Paul

The legend was probably a medieval invention. In old Northern European legends stretching back to pre-christian times. There are several cups with magical qualities popping up in them (such as the cauldron of the Irish God The Dagda or the cup of the British King Bran). All seem to have the quality of bringing the dead back to life or healing by drinking from them. The cup King Arthur is searching for is almost certainly the cup of Bran not Jesus.
 
As with most other pagan legends and holy days, the medieval church converted by incorperating local mythos into their own.
And the first written mention of the Grail itself is still from Chrtien de Troyes Perceval ou le Conte du Graal, estimated to have been written sometime between 1180 and 1190. It was started by Chrtien but eventually finished by someone else.
 
It was an instant runaway Medieval literary success. Twenty years down the line there were trobadours complaining about the insane never-ending demand for more Grail-and-Arthur stuff at the courts of the day.LOL
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 22:14
Originally posted by Paul

The legend was probably a medieval invention. In old Northern European legends stretching back to pre-christian times. There are several cups with magical qualities popping up in them (such as the cauldron of the Irish God The Dagda or the cup of the British King Bran). All seem to have the quality of bringing the dead back to life or healing by drinking from them. The cup King Arthur is searching for is almost certainly the cup of Bran not Jesus.
 
As with most other pagan legends and holy days, the medieval church converted by incorperating local mythos into their own.
 
 
 
interesting stuff. Clap Love hearing of religious crossovers but not heard of that one, cool.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 23:14
The holly grail exist. However, it is not the descendency of Jesus.
The holly grail is actually a cup that is suppose the cup of the last supper.
It is kept in Valencia Cathedral, Spain.
 
End of the mystery
 
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 07:13
Originally posted by pinguin

The holly grail exist. However, it is not the descendency of Jesus.
The holly grail is actually a cup that is suppose the cup of the last supper.


Indeed, Very true.


Originally posted by pinquin


It is kept in Valencia Cathedral, Spain.


highly unlikely. About as likely as the 'holy sponge' being something to do with Jesus.

Lets face it, how do you know which one was used at the Last Supper, which of the 12 Jesus used etcetc. Does it have his name on it?

the most likely thing that happened to the holy grail... It broke, was discarded and disapeared from history.
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  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 07:52
Originally posted by pinguin

The holly grail exist. However, it is not the descendency of Jesus.
The holly grail is actually a cup that is suppose the cup of the last supper.
It is kept in Valencia Cathedral, Spain.
 
End of the mystery
 
Pinguin
 
Well, let's rather say that some people assume the holy grail is a cup, others assume it is the spear of Longinus, but whatever they assume, the holy grail is an invention of fiction, written by, as Joinville said, by Chretien de Troyes in the late 12th century.
 
That a cup in Valencia Cathedral is claimed to be the holy grail, does not make the grail real, it only proves that the grail legends have been integrated by the Catholic church.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 08:32
I'd say that cup in Valencia is about as real as the three foreskins of Jesus, the four shrouds all woven between 900 and 1400 AD (and at least one of which has female blood on it...Wink), and the five tons of wood that all supposedly came from one simple cross. Disapprove
 
And lets, just for a minute suggest Jesus got a kid. How many generations ago do you think 33 AD is? About 2000 years, 4 generations per century, that would make 800 generations. That means any descendant would have one-in-800-square-parts holy blood (that is 1 to 640000, I think)... Microscope anyone? And that of course is supposing the bloodline was continued until present day, and each person in the direct line got only 1 kid. If they all would have had two kids... how many people would there be with holy blood? Enough to fill a country I'd say. Big grail...
 
Correction of my mathsskills (or absence thereof). The square value of 800 is 640000. The other number was the square root...


Edited by Aelfgifu - 23-Apr-2007 at 08:40

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  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 08:38
Well, I'm personally a fan of myths in that sense I tend to believe that most myths are based on facts. But I'm also very aware of how false history has affected society, and I tend to be very, very sceptic about religious relics. After all, religion is a matter of faith, not solid evidence that comes out in multiple editions.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 13:25

Just to clear this out, the Holy Grail is still largely unknown. Sang Real "Royal Blood" that Mr. Brown wrote about is still merely a theory which is cleverly manipulated into tricking many readers that such theory is accurate.

I am not against Da Vinci Code. It's a fun book to read, but the readers should be aware of what are facts and what are work of fictions.
 
It's funny.... there are so many AE members complaining about 300, and yet none of them talk complain about Da Vinci Code....
     
   
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 13:46
pekau, although i agree with you - Fiction is fiction, History is History, I do have one or two problems with the Da Vinci Code.

Novels about History are great, as are conspiracy books. They are just an interesting as murder mysteries etc. I think they are something fun that anyone can read and, can, in some cases actually improve interest in the reality of what the person is writing about.

Far more dangerous than Novels about History are books like 'Holy Blood, holy Grail' or indeed the original 'priory of Sion', which set out to be "History" and are taken seriously by the mainstream. It is a real disaster for society and Historians when authors of books like these are taken MORE SERIOUSLY than proper academics studying within these fields. I mean lets face it, would you trust your health to a Doctor or would you go down to the local Witch doctor for all your remedies?

So i think the problem is with psuedohistory and not with novels like Dan Browns.

My problem with Dan Brown is his idiotic pretence that its based on fact. He knows thats just nonsense, but uses it to present the book as something a lot more 'brilliant' than it really is. Lets face it, it truly lacks creativity - the book is based on a best selling conspiracy, one of characters name 'scrambles' into the surnames of hte authors of that bestselling conspiracy book. I mean come on. Its the sort of thing a 10yr old would do with an English project. This is what angers me - why does it have to be made out to be some sort of master piece. Why cant people realise, its just CRAP! read some REAL books, perhaps.

I'd say that cup in Valencia is about as real as the three foreskins of Jesus, the four shrouds all woven between 900 and 1400 AD (and at least one of which has female blood on it...Wink), and the five tons of wood that all supposedly came from one simple cross.


Jesus Foreskins. I just can't believe it. What was wrong with medieval society with their relics.


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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 04:35
Originally posted by pekau

Just to clear this out, the Holy Grail is still largely unknown. Sang Real "Royal Blood" that Mr. Brown wrote about is still merely a theory which is cleverly manipulated into tricking many readers that such theory is accurate.

I am not against Da Vinci Code. It's a fun book to read, but the readers should be aware of what are facts and what are work of fictions.
 
It's funny.... there are so many AE members complaining about 300, and yet none of them talk complain about Da Vinci Code....
 
Oh, yes, we did complain about the DaVinci code... Endlessly.
 
 
 
 
And this is just the tip of the iceberg... I know there must be at least three more threads about the DVC which I cannot find anymore.

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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by ovidius

Jesus Foreskins. I just can't believe it. What was wrong with medieval society with their relics.
 
Ah, shall I tell you the story of St. Ursula and the eleven thousand virgins? LOL
 
St Ursula was a noble Christian woman bethrothed to a pagan king. Wishing to remain a virgin, she set out with ten companions, each with a thousand virgins to accompany them. They traveled far and wide, and finally were killed at Cologne by the Huns, because the Huns hated Christians.
 
And lo and behold. Somewhere in the middle ages, close to Cologne, a large field full of old human bones was found. People immediately surmised these were the Virgins of St. Ursula, and Colonge grew increadably rich on selling pieces of the bones as relics, and from the many pilgrims staying in town.
 
Of course, modern science has proven that the bones are both male and female, and are most likely of people who have died from an epedemic of some sorts in the Roman age...
 

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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 05:06
Originally posted by pinguin

The holly grail exist. However, it is not the descendency of Jesus.
The holly grail is actually a cup that is suppose the cup of the last supper.
It is kept in Valencia Cathedral, Spain.
 
End of the mystery
 
Pinguin
But it is of course also kept in Wales (these days in a safe deposit box I believe), but then it is known as "the Nanteos Cup".
 
Richard Wagner once visited Nanteos, was shown the cup by its then owner, and derived part of his inspiration for his opera "Parzifal" from it.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 14:16
 
Originally posted by pekau

Just to clear this out, the Holy Grail is still largely unknown. Sang Real "Royal Blood" that Mr. Brown wrote about is still merely a theory which is cleverly manipulated into tricking many readers that such theory is accurate.

I am not against Da Vinci Code. It's a fun book to read, but the readers should be aware of what are facts and what are work of fictions.
 
It's funny.... there are so many AE members complaining about 300, and yet none of them talk complain about Da Vinci Code....
 
You weren't here when we talked about it.
 
It is an unmitigated load of rubbish, badly written, and just as wrong about the present-day facts as it is about the historical ones. (French criminals are held in prisons in Andorra, visitors to France have to lodge their passports with hotels so the police can inspect them, aristocratic Englishmen have 'anglo-saxon accents', the Tuileries are the Paris equivalent of Central Park ... and on and on from one utter stupidity to another.)
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  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 17:55

Since this has turned into a debate about literature:

 
Check out Umberto Eco's novel Baudolino, where the Grail appears as an important element. This novel is just fiction, but it is wonderful fiction.
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 23:30
Quote: Aelfgifu

"And lets, just for a minute suggest Jesus got a kid. How many generations ago do you think 33 AD is? About 2000 years, 4 generations per century, that would make 800 generations."

2000 : 30 years => 67 generations.

Jesus could be your greeeeeat-grand-dad sweetie-pie.
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 13:05

I'd just like to say that I agree with people on everything here.

1. The Da Vinci Code is crap.
 
2. The physical Holy Grail that Jesus used at the last supper probably was discarded years later.
 
3. The Holy Grail Arthur found was the "baptized" Cup of Bran.
 
4. Is anyone else not impressed Jesus had multiple foreskins.....
 
5. The Da Vinci Code is crap.
 
6. It is theologically incompatible and morally ambiguous to assume that Jesus had a child. There is no mention of it in any of the Gospels or Apocryphal works, or any contemporary works. The women he supposedly had a child with, probably didn't fall in (physical) love with him. And do you believe that God knowing all the problems that an absentee father would bring would just abandon his progeny in the world. I mean Jesus was distraught when God abandoned him for a milisecond on the cross.
 
7. The Da Vinci Code is crap.
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