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Genghis 
Caliph 
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2656 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Gun Control/Gun OwnershipPosted: 18-May-2007 at 00:25 |
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As an aside, why is Taiwan's murder rate so high?
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Member of IAEA
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Genghis
Caliph
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2656 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 00:32 |
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Maharbbal, you have to admit that that is not a very accurate comparison, you can't compare European and American society and assume that guns are the only variable. If you really want to be convincing you'd have to compare the states within the United States to one another.
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Maharbbal
Sultan 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 01:24 |
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Triades? |
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I am a free donkey!
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 01:53 |
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Maharbbal, you have to admit that that is not a very accurate comparison, you can't compare European and American society and assume that guns are the only variable.
I know there are differences between the US and Europe. But it is not pushing it too much to say that gun ownership may have some major impact on the rate of murders by firearms If you really want to be convincing you'd have to compare the states within the United States to one another. Agreed. But only to an extent. Policies in one can affect the other and comparing North Dakota and California is maybe not very interesting. It is interesting to compare the US with non-Euro contries On the American continent, the US are not doing to bad, but indeed they are not in the same league as most. Those it can be compared to are doing much better (see Argentina or Canada). Colombia 36.53 29.59 6.94 Brazil 19.04 10.58 Mexico 17.58 9.88 7.70 United States 5.70 3.72 1.98 39.0 Argentina 4.51 2.11 2.40 Canada 2.16 0.76 1.40 The US do rather much worse than most of the Euro offshoots. South Africa 75.30 26.60 48.70 United States 5.70 3.72 1.98 39.0 Canada 2.16 0.76 1.40 Australia 1.86 0.44 1.42 New Zealand 1.47 0.17 1.30 |
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I am a free donkey!
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 05:22 |
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I need some explanation on this one, because it keeps popping up. So because several thousand kids die under cars, it is ok that several hunderd additional ones die from guns? What the f**k do these things have to do with each other? Should we stop treating kids with leukemia, because the number of their deaths is insignificant compared to the number of kids dying from cars? Should we stop inoculating kids against diseases, because only 1 case in 1000 will die from the disease anyway? What kind of bullsh*t argument is this? 'yes kids die, but hey, more die in car accidents, so their deaths do not matter to us'.
Perhaps we can tell that to the mother who lost her child because the neighbours kid found his dads gun: 'Yes we are sorry your kid died, but statistically, the chance he would have died in a car crash is far bigger, so we see no need to try and prevent such deaths.'
And do not come up with the 'put your guns out of kid's reach' crap. I've been able to open child-safe locks since I was three. I would have gotten that gun out no problem. Edited by Aelfgifu - 18-May-2007 at 05:26 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 07:08 |
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Yeah? I still can't open these safes
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I am a free donkey!
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 07:19 |
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■ New Zealand
Elderly man scares off thief A 90-year-old man grabbed a carving knife from his kitchen and chased away a masked intruder who had threatened his wife with a butter knife. The intruder waved the flimsy weapon at David Saulbrey's wife when she tried to ring the police to report Tuesday's break-in at their home in Lower Hutt, near Wellington, the Dominion-Post newspaper reported. Saulbrey, who failed to hear the hapless intruder's demand for money because he was not wearing his hearing aid, then beat the burglar in a search for a more threatening weapon. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/01/15/2003087688 Edited by Aelfgifu - 18-May-2007 at 09:42 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 07:33 |
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Safe? If only! You can get a gun for a dime, but a safe will set you back a few thousand dollars. Way too expensive. And besides, what use is a gun in a safe? The last thing you want is to have to fiddle with numbers and locks when you need your gun for 'protection'. It must be close to hand in case you get burgled or when the government suddenly becomes opressive. Edited by Aelfgifu - 18-May-2007 at 07:35 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 08:59 |
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So when people in California protest violently against unequal treatmen by the police it is not Protests but Riots, and when the people in Paris violently protest against unequal treatment by police it is not Riots but proof that Americans are better able to deal with gun posession... Funny argumentation. Silly too.
Might I make a suggestion? Read up on Europe before making silly remarks like this. The US are a single country, and, as people keep endlessly reminding, that country has the right for arms in its constitution. How does this compare to a continent?
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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eaglecap
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 20:23 |
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"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution My ancestors revolted (father's side) from the British Empire to free itself from European rule and so I hold all that is in our Constitution as sacred and worth fighting for. 6. Refuting Statistics Statistics are valuable tools, since they are able to summarize an argument in a few numbers, and are able to present a good picture of the problem when used honestly. Here are some statistics that spell out major parts of the gun-rights battle. There are 129 million privately owned firearms in the United States according to the September, 1997 FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. There are an estimated 65 million handguns in private circulation in the United States. (FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, 9/1997) The fastest growing group of gun owners is women, according to Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns. Firearms are used defensively roughly 2.5 million times per year, more than four times as many as criminal uses. This amounts to 2,575 lives protected for every life lost to a gun (Targeting Guns). The accidental firearm death rate is at it's lowest point since records were started nearly 100 years ago according to Injury Facts 2000 from the national Safety Council. Motor-vehicle accidents, drowning, suffocation, and fires each kill more children under the age of fifteen than do firearms. Less than one handgun in 6,500 is ever used in a homicide. Now I rarely bring a gun into the woods with me and usually only pepper spray for Black bears and I hunt elk or deer only with a composite bow and never a gun but still I respect someone if they are handling the gun in a mature way. Believe me, I have almost been hit by foolish, usually drunk, gun owners but only twice in my life. If you conider how much time I spent in the outdoors that is not much. The majority of gun owners in my area are responsible and even though a concealed weapons permit is easy to get in Washington State death by guns is low compared to other states such as California with much stricter regulations. There is always a black market if they banned gun ownership. They cannot stop the flow of drugs so how do you think they can stop illegal guns. Then, only the bad guys will have them!! |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-May-2007 at 23:07 |
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My ancestors revolted (father's side) from the British Empire to free itself from European rule
So you should be entitled to only half a gun (lol). and so I hold all that is in our Constitution as sacred and worth fighting for. Half sacred The fastest growing group of gun owners is women, according to Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns. And so what? Firearms are used defensively roughly 2.5 million times per year, more than four times as many as criminal uses. This amounts to 2,575 lives protected for every life lost to a gun (Targeting Guns). This interpretation is so ridiculous. This would indicate that without the "gun rights" the number of American dying (of any cause) a year would nearly double. Where do you hold the 2.5 million figure from? Much more interesting would be the number of cases (because I recognize they do exist) of use of gun legitime defense. The accidental firearm death rate is at it's lowest point since records were started nearly 100 years ago according to Injury Facts 2000 from the national Safety Council. Let me ask why? Formation? Better material? Motor-vehicle accidents, drowning, suffocation, and fires each kill more children under the age of fifteen than do firearms. So what? Less than one handgun in 6,500 is ever used in a homicide. Finally an interesting figure. Here are the figures about cars in France (where people drive in a reckless fashion): about 2,500,000 cars are sold every year, 4500 people die a year because of cars so some 1 death for each 556 cars (sounds like a lot). Does it mean cars are 10 times more dangerous than guns are? hardly Let say that a driver uses her car some 600 times a year (most likely many more) while a gunowner may shot at best 30 times a year on average. So that's some 1.5 billion car trips a year at least so 1 death every 320,000 trips. Meanwhile the 6,500 guns necessary to kill a man are used maybe 200,000. So my (very shaky) statistics show that the guns ARE actually more dangerous than car and way less productive Now I rarely bring a gun into the woods with me and usually only pepper spray for Black bears lol and I hunt elk or deer only with a composite bow yok, I hope you eat it. Believe me, I have almost been hit by foolish, usually drunk, gun owners but only twice in my life. Only? I maybe a bit younger than you but it never happened to me The majority of gun owners in my area are responsible and even though a concealed weapons permit is easy to get in Washington State death by guns is low compared to other states such as California with much stricter regulations. As you can see in the stats (cf previous posts) the lowest the population density (at equal firearm density) the lowest the number of murder. The problem is of course in densely populated urban areas. People are more than entitled to hunt. If anything because they've been doing it for decades and trained in their early age. On the countrary, in cities you have many more targets. There is always a black market if they banned gun ownership. They cannot stop the flow of drugs so how do you think they can stop illegal guns. Then, only the bad guys will have them!! |
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I am a free donkey!
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DesertHistorian
Samurai 
Joined: 22-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 127 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2007 at 00:33 |
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Maharbbal,
As an A&E Moderator you obviously must have super powers in order to read things into something I did not write, are capable of making leaps of logic that no mortal humans are capable of and have the mighty power of making assumptions based on ??????
1. Where did I say anywhere that the resistance groups in Europe during WWII did not have any outside help? Nowhere, except perhaps in your very active imagination.
2. Your ability to know that IED's are the only means of resistance and attack in Iraq and Afghanistan are also the product of a very active imagination, and watching too much television news. If you have read any reports by the soldiers themselves involved in combat operations you would know that sniper attacks and fire fights do happen frequently and have taken almost as many casualties as the IED's have taken. The reason you do not see them on the television news, is that there is nothing to show. While the majority of news people are sitting comfortably in their hotel rooms, when a sniper incident or fire fight takes places, the only footage being shot is usually by the the military itself, or by small news teams attempting to make documentaries. So, there is little footage of these events taking place, yet they do take place.
I have spoken with many returning soldiers and they have stated that quite clearly, that it is not just IED's they are in danger of on a daily basis it is ambushes, fire fights and sniper actions as well. To state otherwise just shows a lack of attention on your part.
Also, you have to realize (maybe not) that IED's are also weapons of resistance, and whether it is planting bombs, sniper actions, fire fights, they all contribute to a resistance movement, and they did the same thing in Europe during WWII.
On your bet, that is a simple one too.
Since the United States is the only country in the world that allows it's populace to be armed on a large scale, there would have been no events in the 20th century where a "legally armed" population has overthrown a tyrant, dictatorship etc...and that would be because all those people participating in revolutions, civil wars would have been illegally armed.
Though there are examples, the Mexican Revolution being one of them, the Jews ousting the British from Palestine, the Irish finally ridding themselves of the British after 700 years of British tyranny, excepting Norther Ireland, and we could go all the way back to 1783 when we threw off the tyranny of the British, with some help from the French. But again, who said that these revolutions and resistance movements had no support from the outside?
My only contention in that regard is that the United States because of our 2nd Amendment rights have the ability to resistance a malevolent government due to the 150 million gun owners. No other country could do that for that simple reason.
And of course, depending on your perspective would determine whether these people were armed "legally or illegally". They would say they were armed legally. The governments they opposed would say they were armed illegally.
That again is where the US Constitution granting the right to keep and bear arms is more than a privilege or a law allowing the people to keep and bear arms. You see, the framers of our Constitution and Bill of Rights did not grant the people of the United States their rights, they all acknowledged that these were God given rights that no man could deny us. And unlike the UK, Australia, Canada, and other countries where the people have had their abilities to keep and bear arms either heavily restricted or outright taken away simply by the government passing a simple law doing so, that cannot happen in the US.
Why? Because first both our houses of Congress would have to pass an amendment to the Constitution to repeal the 2nd amendment, which would require a 2/3rds majority in both houses. Then if the President did not veto it, or the Supreme Court find it unconstitutional, it would still have to be ratified by 2/3rds of the States before the 2nd Amendment could be repealed. That will never happen, not in my lifetime any way.
That makes it very, very difficult for our right to keep and bear arms to be repealed, unlike any other country where the people can be disarmed much more easily.
Not only that, but the people in the US would never turn their weapons in even if the government repealed the 2nd Amendment. California has passed laws against owning any kind of what they have termed "assault weapons", yet only the liberals turned in their guns, no one else has, and I know because I used to live in California and still have friends and family there that are still "well" armed, and have no intention of turning any weapons in.
Most of what you have posted on gun control is the standard leftist line of nonsense that the government will take care of everybody. Yet, that is not possible. Calling the police when someone is breaking into your home, attacking you or your loved ones, attempting to rape your sister, wife, mother, aunt, will only accomplish that there will be someone to draw a nice chalk outline around you/them when they (the police) get there.
The people in the US prefer freedom and being able to defend oneself to waiting around for police to eventually show up after the fact.
Our system may not be perfect, but it's better than anything else in this world.
You see, once you have a taste of freedom, slavery is not an option.
My challenge to you Maharbbal is to cast off the leash and see what freedom is really like. If you dare.
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Guests
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Quote Reply
Posted: 19-May-2007 at 00:49 |
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In fact it's AE users. Originally only you owned a gun, but Genghis also bought one, so that's a 100% increase. I don't think women do better. Edited by Mixcoatl - 19-May-2007 at 00:50 |
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DesertHistorian
Samurai
Joined: 22-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 127 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 20-May-2007 at 15:53 |
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This is where we crazy American cowboy types get are crazy ideas on keeping and bear arms from, and not that this makes any difference whatsoever to gun control advocates, but thank God such men Founded the United States or we would be like the rest of you, defenseless.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms, disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -Thomas Jefferson |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-May-2007 at 16:26 |
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No offense my friend but this is really a U.S. issue and not open to world view. Our Constitution says, We of the People of the United States..... You are free to an opinion and I respect your view but only Americans have the right to influence our politicians by public opinion. You only make me want to join the NRA even more to fight for these rights in the political arena. I will no longer waste my time adding to this because whether I were to change your mind or not is not important to me nor do I desire to do so.
My point was my ancestors or founding fathers revolted to escape European Tyranny and some of us feel that strong about our constitution, created to protect our God given rights. I am rushed but I will finish what you wrote later when I have time but I am done here. |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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DukeC
Arch Duke 
Joined: 07-Nov-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1564 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-May-2007 at 18:53 |
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Gun policy in America has an effect on other people, many of the guns on Canadian streets have been smuggled in from the U.S.. There are also many foreign visitors to the States every year and some of them will be victims of gun crime.
I think it's possible to limit access to weapons so that people can still have firearms if they choose, but some of the most dangerous weapons are controlled. High powered rifles for hunting only need a limited capacity(say five rounds) and handguns should be restricted for home defence and target practice. It's possible to meet the spirit of the 2nd Amendment and protect people from wide spread gun violence at the same time. If people in the U.S. value the right to own firearms they should also put in the effort to see they're managed responsibly. Edited by DukeC - 22-May-2007 at 19:00 |
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Guests
Guest
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Quote Reply
Posted: 22-May-2007 at 21:17 |
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While it is true that the US constitution says that, and that people in other countries generally do not have influence on US policy, we are still entitled to have our opinion about whatever happens in the US, and it does not make our opinions any more or less true. Arguments like the one you presented above are more a way to silence a discussion than real arguments opposed to gun control. |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-May-2007 at 14:56 |
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ho hum !!!
  
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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DukeC
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Nov-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1564 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-May-2007 at 16:29 |
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Lobbyists working for foreign governments and companies often have more influence over policy in the U.S. than "average" citizens, why should this issue be any different.
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-May-2007 at 17:35 |
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This is why we have powerful lobby groups like the NRA and other groups.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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It makes an adorable addition to his baby book 
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