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The Wars for the Baltic 1600 to 1721

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  Quote wilpuri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Wars for the Baltic 1600 to 1721
    Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 16:08
The Swedish Wars of 1600-1721 killed of 1/3 off The Finnish people, IIRC. The Bloody Shield of Sweden, indeed.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 13:08

We call the time of Swedish rule vana hea rootsi aeg (the good old Swdish time) here in Estonia as their rule is known to be the softest and more enlightened and cultural then of the others.

Although the Estonian deaths that were payed by Swedish, Polish and Russian wars here must not be forgotten.

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  Quote wilpuri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 05:37
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

We call the time of Swedish rule vana hea rootsi aeg (the good old Swdish time) here in Estonia as their rule is known to be the softest and more enlightened and cultural then of the others.

Although the Estonian deaths that were payed by Swedish, Polish and Russian wars here must not be forgotten.

Hehe, funny that, although I had heard about it before. For us its the otherway around, under Russia we had our cultural renaissansance (or Golden Age more like it) and much greater autonomy, etc. Under Swedish we were being swedified quite heavily, for example church sermons were only in Swedish etc and the only official language was Swedish. There was no such thing as a recognized Finnish culture. Only under Russia did this come about. Of course, the Russians didn't do this just because they're such a nice bunch of people, but to make sure Finns wouldn't want to jump over back to Sweden. Either way, it was good for us. Only towards the end of Russian rule did the oppression and Russification begin.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2005 at 13:00

But it began...

I had no idea of that vana hea part, but otherwise it is known that thye did no cultural damage here...

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  Quote UnholyMenace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 14:07

Little about so called good old Swedish time: actually the vana hea Roosti aeg (good old Swedish time) is not so true sentence/notion as people think it is. Yes we can think that Gustav II Adolf wanted to change things in here for better (which is actually true) but we must also know that he managed to ease only some problems - (yes he wanted to abolish the bondage, but he knew that the nobelmans would be against it and he got killed before he could do anything really notheworthy) so we cant actually reffer it as a good Swedish time. Swedish time was a period between two great wars - and when people looked back at it (people who actually lived during that time), then of course they told the next generation that the time was much better - it seemed yes that way then. Also if we look at the Russian time, then people say that it was a bad time and people suffered much - but actually it was much better time, than Swedish time if you look closer. There are many arguments that affirm my point, but i guess it is the wrong thread in where to do it!

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 03:45

Yes, pretty correct there Unholy. i am just studying the Swedish rule here in Estonia and it doesn't seem to have that many benefits to the other usurper rules that got their fingers on us. Only the education got its pace going during Karl XI. It is mostly nostalgy i guess or the common human emotion of seeing everything in the past as better and more colorful.

I hope nostalgy doesn't make us see the 1940-1991. occupation as the Vana hea Vene aeg

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  Quote UnholyMenace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 05:41
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

I hope nostalgy doesn't make us see the 1940-1991. occupation as the Vana hea Vene aeg
In fact there are people who say that there are a lot of young people (who actually dont know how life was during that time - i mean who have lived during the time, but dont remember anything because they were too young then) who really have nostalgy for Soviet time. It is actually pretty sad thing, because it shows that people in Estonia also idealize that kind of goverment and state leadership. - in some cases i guess i eaven know why some people think that way!
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  Quote wilpuri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 11:18
I find that quite strange. I understand if older Russians miss the security of the 'good old days', but for Estonians to miss a time of tyranny, oppression, deportation... Strange to say the least.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 12:23

It is the after-affect of the last years of Soviet rule where everything was pretty much, well, soft. And my father also has said that during Soviets, he never saw a beggar or an unemployeed person on the streets. That reflected well on the early unemployment rate of capitalist Estonia. It is just a normal reaction i guess, just bitterness to throw at your current government.

While at the same time, Estonian parents and older people also have tons of stories about the stupidity of our big Eastern intruder here, really hilarious, maybe only to us, but nice to hear. No love for a soviet here to be seen, or towards Russians neither.

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  Quote UnholyMenace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 14:22

Old Estonians (age maybe 70 and more and who remember anything from the period during 1918-1940) usually say that the Pts's time was great and etc...which is actually pretty strange thought. Of course it was time before the great war and also before Soviet time and deportation to Siberia - so the earlyer time seemed very good! They still made pretty big mistakes during the first independance period - but we have to admit that there was no chance that we could have done something to prevent what happened.

I remember i had to do an essay in tthe subject "Estonias choices before WWII" - there is only one answer - there were no choices - things were decided behind us and a small country like Estonia had no chance to do anything.

Sure we can think that we won the Independance war (1918-1920), but could you actually imagine Estonia winning Russia? It is pretty weird thing to do - Russia had its own problems and i think they knew that they have theyr chance to come back here and also get back theyr "legitimate" power.  And it shows that Estonia won only because there were so many things happening in Russia and it was the right moment for Estonians to get the power - same goes with Latvia and Lithuania aswell i guess!



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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2005 at 16:34

Finland wasn't ruled by Sweden, it was Sweden. A natural part of the kingdom just like Svealand or Gtaland

Originally posted by wilpuri

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

We call the time of Swedish rule vana hea rootsi aeg (the good old Swdish time) here in Estonia as their rule is known to be the softest and more enlightened and cultural then of the others.

Although the Estonian deaths that were payed by Swedish, Polish and Russian wars here must not be forgotten.

Hehe, funny that, although I had heard about it before. For us its the otherway around, under Russia we had our cultural renaissansance (or Golden Age more like it) and much greater autonomy, etc. Under Swedish we were being swedified quite heavily, for example church sermons were only in Swedish etc and the only official language was Swedish. There was no such thing as a recognized Finnish culture. Only under Russia did this come about. Of course, the Russians didn't do this just because they're such a nice bunch of people, but to make sure Finns wouldn't want to jump over back to Sweden. Either way, it was good for us. Only towards the end of Russian rule did the oppression and Russification begin.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 07:05
A natural part??? It was a conquered area as any other in history.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 07:09

"Old Estonians (age maybe 70 and more and who remember anything from the period during 1918-1940) usually say that the Pts's time was great and etc...which is actually pretty strange thought. Of course it was time before the great war and also before Soviet time and deportation to Siberia - so the earlyer time seemed very good! They still made pretty big mistakes during the first independance period - but we have to admit that there was no chance that we could have done something to prevent what happened. "

I have always thought that we could have had a chance against the reds. They weren't that skilled at warfare. And Estonian men were known as much better soldiers in skill and from the point of moral. There were only 25000 reds in here, could have taken them.

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  Quote UnholyMenace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 07:47
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

I have always thought that we could have had a chance against the reds. They weren't that skilled at warfare. And Estonian men were known as much better soldiers in skill and from the point of moral. There were only 25000 reds in here, could have taken them.
During the independence war we had some support from England and also from many other European countryes - but now Finland had its own problems and England was in war "side by side" with so called Russia. I dont know much about the situation then, but i think it was pretty impossible.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 14:06

I wrote my previous post in a rush, but i still think, the Soviets would not have been such hard nuts to crack. Their moral wasn't that high, we had the homefield advantage, our declaration of war might have driven other East-European nations, mainly Latvia and Lithuania into doing the same thing. Just look at soviet losses compared to others in WW2, enourmous difference. Stalin had annihilated most of the brains of the Red Army. God knows where he got people to fill the spots for officers and generals, not any smarter tacticians than the local peasant i guess filled those spots, literally. The moral and training of an Estonian soldier was very highly appreciated and ws compared to the Wehrmacht's.



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  Quote UnholyMenace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 15:34
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

I wrote my previous post in a rush, but i still think, the Soviets would not have been such hard nuts to crack. Their moral wasn't that high, we had the homefield advantage, our declaration of war might have driven other East-European nations, mainly Latvia and Lithuania into doing the same thing. Just look at soviet losses compared to others in WW2, enourmous difference. Stalin had annihilated most of the brains of the Red Army. God knows where he got people to fill the spots for officers and generals, not any smarter tacticians than the local peasant i guess filled those spots, literally. The moral and training of an Estonian soldier was very highly appreciated and ws compared to the Wehrmacht's.
Reading it makes me wonder one thing - why the hell didnt they do it then? If you say thay might have had a chance to beat them, then why didnt they and why history turned up the way it did?

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

A natural part??? It was a conquered area as any other in history.

 He means it was considered a natural part of the realm, different from other areas - eg Estland or Pommerania. As opposed the modern day ones, the Finns of old were and considered themselves Swedish citizens (there was no independence ideas until the Russian times) and the Finnish provinces were governed the same as any 'native' province.


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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 09:31

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

A natural part??? It was a conquered area as any other in history.

Before the 12th century there was no Finland/Suomi - just a sparesly populated region of different Suomi/Finn tribes plus some smi in the north and swedish speaking people at the coast. The region was then conquered in several steps from the 12th to 13th century - both military and peacefully. But it's important to note, as Styrbiorn wrote, that the region which became known as Finland was fully integrated into the swedish realm - the suomi were not treated or viewed as a foreign people, but as swedes who just happened to speak a different language...

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 09:39

Originally posted by UnholyMenace

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

I wrote my previous post in a rush, but i still think, the Soviets would not have been such hard nuts to crack. Their moral wasn't that high, we had the homefield advantage, our declaration of war might have driven other East-European nations, mainly Latvia and Lithuania into doing the same thing. Just look at soviet losses compared to others in WW2, enourmous difference. Stalin had annihilated most of the brains of the Red Army. God knows where he got people to fill the spots for officers and generals, not any smarter tacticians than the local peasant i guess filled those spots, literally. The moral and training of an Estonian soldier was very highly appreciated and ws compared to the Wehrmacht's.
Reading it makes me wonder one thing - why the hell didnt they do it then? If you say thay might have had a chance to beat them, then why didnt they and why history turned up the way it did?

Because, there were so few Estonian soldiers. Well, I can't guess the number but not likely over 7,00. Russians were widesppreaded over the lands, here and there. Most ports were at their hands so help needed first to conquer the ports.

You, aswell, can't ask why history turns out as it does, it just does. And preferrably Russian took their generals and czars aswell from peasents. It has been a tradion for them, I think.

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 14:58

"Reading it makes me wonder one thing - why the hell didnt they do it then? If you say thay might have had a chance to beat them, then why didnt they and why history turned up the way it did?"

Because the government saw no option other to surrender, which is just plain evil when you think of the effort we had put into getting our independence in the first place. It is a very faint area of subject why our elite gave the country away. There is a book on that aswell. I don't remember the name, but it is about 600+ pages and is slightly red on the covers and has an Estonian embassador with a Soviet official standing next to the Red Square on the covers. The book got quite a big media coverage aswell. I hope my description of the book helped.

I say if we had declared war on the USSR, we would have lost fever people as casualties and refugees than we did by giving the country for them to rape freely. It worked for the Finns and i don't think our winter here would have been much milder. Could have atleast frozen a few limbs off of those reds. 

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