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Norses: Were the Skraelings Amerindians?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Norses: Were the Skraelings Amerindians?
    Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 22:13
Were the Skraelings of the Iceland sagas Native Americans?
 
If so, what are the documented proof to sustain that claim?
 
The Norse posts in North America were short lived and vanished without any impact in local Native America population, it seems.
On the other hand, there is no proof that the Native Americans influenced the Norse either (like they did with the European at contact), or that such a profitable trade like the furs is, had any impact in Europe at Vinland's times.
 
That is it. I believe Skraelings were Inuits and not Amerindians. What do you think?
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 03:10
Well, the Norse settled in New Foundland for a few years, so its possible that Amerindians are Skraelings. I have always thought so, but the Norse would have had longer contact with the Inuits, so there is a good argument that they are the skraelings. Or, perhaps, the Norse lumped Inuit and Skraelings together? I thought skraeling meant non-human, or sub-human, or something to that effect, so, in my mind it is logical that the Norse would have called the Inuit and the Amerindians skraelings. 
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Posts: 545 		  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 03:18

Inuit learned from Norse, such as buildind their boat based on the structure of the longship, or building their summer huts following the structure of the Vikings huts.We should study the myth and legend of the Native American ,especially those in Newfoundland ot North pole, in order to find out the clues of the Norse contact.

there were fighting  between Norse in Vinland and the skraelings, if Newfounldland was vinland, were the skraelings  Amerindians? Any inuits tribes lived in NEWfoundlands? I am not sure
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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 12:30
From what I recall of the sagas, I may be wrong, the Vikings said the Skraelings were ugly with no facial hair or something like that. Of course, beauty and ugly is subjective observations, and I am quite convinced that the Natives found the grizzled Norsemen quite ugly too, but the point here is the facial hair. While the Inuits and also the tribes of the Pacific Coast such as Kwakiutl and Tlingit were known for having facial hair, the Newfoundland Natives were not as far as I know.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 14:09

Native Americans also have facial hair. For the genetic point of view, Inuits and Native Americans are closer related together than with Europeans. So, the facial hair is not a conclusive argument.

Besides, in Northern Canada it is noticeable that there is a smooth transition between Natives and Inuits, and it seem some admixture have existed between both groups. T
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 15:52
In terms of territory, wouldn't it be more likely that the Skraelings would have been Iroquois or cree.  I don't recall ever reading that the inuit inhabited as far south as New Foundland or Maine.  Every listing I've seen has Inuit set as an Artic culture, with the cree and Iroquois set as sub-artic.
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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 20:00
You're right the facial hair is no very solid evidence, yet notice that these Slraelings did not have facial hair, which means they were more likely to be Native Americans than Inuits.
 
Anyway, Newfoundland was inhabited by the now extinct Beothuk tribe which occasionally encountered Inuits from time to time, yet the Inuits did not live on Newfoundland. So it is most likely that the Skraelings must have been Beothuks. This conclusion is also based on archaeological evidences claiming that the Beothuks inhabited this area around 1000 A.D, and Leiv Eiriksson is believed to have landed on Vinland this very year.
 
 
Bill Yenne - The Encyclopedia of North American Indian Tribes, Crescent 1986


Edited by Hope - 31-Mar-2007 at 20:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 20:02

Anybody has the precise refferences in the Icelandic sagas about Vinland, where they talk about the  Skraelings? It would be interesting to take a look.

 
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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 20:05
I'll check into that tomorrow, bit late now and I'm closing down and heading for bed within minutes, but remind me tomorrow.
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Posts: 545 		  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 03:03
There is a book which I found from the library of my university, the name is Westviking, the sub title is The Ancient Norse in Greenland and North America, which is written by Farley Mowat.He had copied the saga and then studied them, for example from 458-464, there is ananalysis of the conflict between norse and the Native, he also identified the native as Beothuks.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 09:00
That's interesting, Tommy. Too bad the Beothurks are not longer here to bring testimony.
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 10:12
From Lee Sultzman's History of the Beothuks-
 
 

People have lived in Newfoundland for at least 9,000 years, but it is unlikely the first residents were Beothuk. Ice age hunters followed the retreating glaciers into the area and remained as the Maritime Archaic Culture until about 3,200 years ago. They were replaced by paleo-eskimos - the Groswater and then later the Dorset Cultures. The Beothuk are believed to have first occupied the coastal areas of Newfoundland sometime around 200 A.D. and shared the area with the Dorset Eskimo during the next 400 years. After 600 A.D. there were only Beothuk living in Newfoundland. Towards the end of the 10th century, the Vikings (Norse) reached North America and established one of their settlements at L'Anse aux Meadows at Epaves Bay (near Cape Bauld on the northern end of Newfoundland). Exactly how far south the Vikings explored along the coast is unknown, but it is certain the people they encountered there, who they called Skraelings, were Beothuk. During the time they remained on Newfoundland, the Vikings traded with the Beothuk and occasionally fought with them, the most notable incident being a battle over a Viking cow.

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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 10:27
Sadly, in the Saga of the Norwegian Kings there is only a minor reference to Vinland and no reference at all to the Skraelings, so I haven't found any description yet.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 10:55
That's interesting. So the Beothuks are the proto-Inuits that are supposed to reach Iceland before the Norse?
 
In any case, as you can see, it seem Norse didn't enter in contact with American Indians but Artic people like the Inuits.
 
For the people that does not know, the Inuits are Native Americans but not American Indians. There is a genetical or "racial" difference between both groups beside a different history. American Indians entered the Americas 15.000 years ago and populated all these lands. Inuits entered from Asia circa 500 A.D. and populated the Artic, from Alaska to Newfoundland and Greenland. Both groups have some degree of contact but in practical terms were two distinct ethniticities.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 11:06
Originally posted by pinguin

That's interesting. So the Beothuks are the proto-Inuits that are supposed to reach Iceland before the Norse?
 
In any case, as you can see, it seem Norse didn't enter in contact with American Indians but Artic people like the Inuits.
 
For the people that does not know, the Inuits are Native Americans but not American Indians. There is a genetical or "racial" difference between both groups beside a different history. American Indians entered the Americas 15.000 years ago and populated all these lands. Inuits entered from Asia circa 500 A.D. and populated the Artic, from Alaska to Newfoundland and Greenland. Both groups have some degree of contact but in practical terms were two distinct ethniticities.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Don't know how you made the jump, but in everything I've read the Beothuk are considered Amerindian.  The language was supposedly an isolate of Algonquin.  [the last known Beothuk speaker was a woman who died of cancer in 1829]
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 11:17

I got confussed now. I believed they were the proto-Inuits that reached Greenland, that I read somewhere. Sorry Clown
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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 12:04
First, I want to correct a mistake I've made: In the Icelandic sagas, facial hair was not mentioned, only their hair and faces.
 
Anyway, the Beothuks were what we occasionally call Indians (or Amerindians if you prefer). They lived in teepees and hunted sea mammals among other game. The Beothuks painted their bodies, their teepees and also I think their canoes with red ocre, which gave them the lable the Red people.
 
This according to Bill Yenne and Wikipedia


Edited by Hope - 01-Apr-2007 at 12:05
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 12:31
But there still the mistery of the name "Vinland". As you know Vin=Wine. And the only regions of the Americas were you can find parrs and well formed grapes are in the East coast of North America. (The parr does not exist in South America, for example, were it was introduced by the Europeans)
 
Now, it is known Natives used grapes to made wine in those regions, but I wonder how far north you can find parrs in the east coast of North America.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 01-Apr-2007 at 12:32
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Posts: 184 		  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 13:15

That mystery was solved by Norwegian anthropologist Helge Ingstad. The Norse word "vin" means pasture, and since Newfoundland is an area of green fields, the name Vinland quite simply means Land of Rich Pastures.

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Posts: 545 		  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 21:34
Well, according to the record of the Portuguese, they stated that the King of Norway had a mysterious land at the west, his ship would go there, and brought back animal skin,the ship spent one year to go there and returned,but the King kept the existence of the land as a secret.
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