Norses: Were the Skraelings Amerindians?

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Originally posted by Boreasi In northern Sweden, where the traditional Swede and Sami still live side by side - without all these other representatives - the local inhabitants still see and relate to these traditional differences, with immediate recognition and without any notable problem. Says who? I've lived there most of my life and I never acquired that ability.   Actually the easiest way (except listening to them speaking) to recognize if someone is a Swede, Dane, Norwegian or Sami is to look at their clothes and behaviour. Looks won't take you anywhere.

Since I was born and raised in the arctic north I can't but say I'm sorry for your ignorance. NO ONE in my schoolyard was ever in doubt to wether they were Gypsies, Romani, Sami, Finn/Kven, Swede or Norwegian. Even if we all shared the common dialect of the area we were born and rised in.

Ask any old Sami - and he can probably guide you into the nuances needed to understand the various discrepancies in question. Their eyes are usually very sharp in recognizing the various nuances of nature - also of this kind.

Good luck!





Edited by Boreasi - 01-May-2007 at 21:33

Originally posted by Boreasi Still? The difference was more clear before, when "racial mixture" were less usual. And still - after generations of mixing - you can still pick 9 out of 10 samis from the general crowd of Wilhelmina and Lule� - the two Swedish cities with the highest percentage of Samis.� In the ethnic mixing-bowl of Stockholm that migth be more difficult and tricky, since todays Stockholmer may have a great variety of genetic inlfuences, like Marrocan, Spanish, Basque, Walonian, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Kurd, Kazak, Tibetan, Chineese - as well as Sami. In northern Sweden, where the traditional Swede and Sami still live side by side - without all these other representatives - the local inhabitants still see and relate to these traditional differences, with immediate recognition and without any notable problem. Just as we still see the difference before we hear it - between the "typical Swede" and the "typical Norwegian". Not to forget the typical Dane, who can be identified at sigth even in a crowd of Germans. In the mountain-areas of northern Norway, Sweden and Finland we still don't have a big problem observing a Swede from a Norwegian or a Sami from a Finn. We may even discriminate between the northern Finns, called Kvens - and the southern Finns, called Finns. (Which is a bit funny, since the differences between northern vs. southern Swedes - or Norwegians, repectively, are more difficult to spot - before they start speaking...)Even if we - in our day and age - wear the same clothes, drive the same cars and enjoy the same liquor, attend the same kind of schools AND the exactly same parties, we STILL may look and speak a little different. Is there a problem with that - in Stockholm?

Well, I declare!
You have magic abilities!

I.e. no you can't. You can suspect something on an individual level at best. Often you will simply be wrong. It was always like that with attempts to link morphology with ethnicity. Stick to the genetics. Type thinking never worked in the first place. (I know its popular with some around this site. Still doesn't make it work. Stick to genetics.)

As for the "genetic influence" in Stockholm, last time I checked Stockholmers were not drosophilia. This international mix you're talking about could only occur in the last 20-30 years, way too short to have any noticeable effect on the vast majority of individuals yet. (When a Turkish sailor stepped off the boat for a few hours shore leave in the 1950's , he was interviewed by the morning papers for being such a rareity.) Come back in a couple of centuries.

Originally posted by Boreasi Quote, Tommy: Well, according to the record of the Portuguese, they stated that the King of Norway had a mysterious land at the west, his ship would go there, and brought back animal skin,the ship spent one year to go there and returned,but the King kept the existence of the land as a secret. That was new to me. Do you have any reference on that?

Found it?

Hope,

Quote;

"While the majority of mtDNA diversity in the northern Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish Sami is accounted for by haplogroups V and U5b1b1, the southern Swedish Sami have other haplogroups and a frequency distribution similar to that of the Continental European population."

Comment:
The influence from the European genome among the Samis are strongest in the south. The northern Samis have maintained their Mongolian genetics to a greater extent - due to less Scandinavian influence.

Quote;
"Haplogroup Z is found at low frequency in the Sami and Northern Asian populations but is virtually absent in Europe."

Comment: See?


Quote:
"Several conserved substitutions group the Sami Z lineages strongly with those from Finland and the Volga-Ural region of Russia, but distinguish them from Northeast Asian representatives."

Comment:
Which means that the haplogroup Z originated as the Sami got mixed with the Finnish gene-pol at an early stage - creating a sligth difference between the Samis and their eastern brethren.

Quote:
"This suggests that some Sami lineages shared a common ancestor with lineages from the Volga-Ural region as recently as 2700 years ago, indicative of a more recent contribution of people from the Volga-Ural region to the Sami population."

Comment:
Presumig that the Finns originate in the Volga-bend of the Ural region. Today we know that NOT to be true, since the Finns seemto carry proves of a "central European origin".

Consequently the Samis must have gained their Asian charcteristics before 2.700 BP - which is the latest date when the mix between the Finnsh and the Sami gen-pools got started.

Quote, Hope;
 "And you still can't pick out the 15.000 Sami living in Stockholm in a crowd."

Still? The difference was more clear before, when "racial mixture" were less usual. And still - after generations of mixing - you can still pick 9 out of 10 samis from the general crowd of Wilhelmina and Lule� - the two Swedish cities with the highest percentage of Samis. 

In the ethnic mixing-bowl of Stockholm that migth be more difficult and tricky, since todays Stockholmer may have a great variety of genetic inlfuences, like Marrocan, Spanish, Basque, Walonian, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Kurd, Kazak, Tibetan, Chineese - as well as Sami.

In northern Sweden, where the traditional Swede and Sami still live side by side - without all these other representatives - the local inhabitants still see and relate to these traditional differences, with immediate recognition and without any notable problem.

Just as we still see the difference before we hear it - between the "typical Swede" and the "typical Norwegian". Not to forget the typical Dane, who can be identified at sigth even in a crowd of Germans.

In the mountain-areas of northern Norway, Sweden and Finland we still don't have a big problem observing a Swede from a Norwegian or a Sami from a Finn. We may even discriminate between the northern Finns, called Kvens - and the southern Finns, called Finns. (Which is a bit funny, since the differences between northern vs. southern Swedes - or Norwegians, repectively, are more difficult to spot - before they start speaking...)

Even if we - in our day and age - wear the same clothes, drive the same cars and enjoy the same liquor, attend the same kind of schools AND the exactly same parties, we STILL may look and speak a little different. Is there a problem with that - in Stockholm?




Edited by Boreasi - 10-Apr-2007 at 21:33

Originally posted by Boreasi <h3 minmax_bound="true">Genetic trails:</h3> <p minmax_bound="true">This suggests an arrival in the region soon after the retreat of the glacial ice, either by way of Continental Europe and/or the Volga-Ural region.

So it's either or both, but nothing is really settled for now it seems.

The ancestors of the Sami walked in as soon as the ice retreated enough, something like 15.000 years ago.

Likely one contribution came from the south, others from the Urals in the east.

Any link with other arctic peoples to the east is quite weak, and probably non-existant with the Inuits.

And you still can't pick out the 15.000 Sami living in Stockholm in a crowd.

Just a note to the Finnish-Hunnic thing:

But some people say that there is no ethnical connection between Finns and Vikings, but they are both white people, One of my teachers stated that she had a Finns friend, and the friend stated that they were the offspring of the Huns, then this is not correct?

Tommy,

The Finns are NOT from an Uralian root - but are the original population of the eastern part of Fenno-Skandia, while the  Swedes, Danes and Norse are their western counterparts.

That's been the case since mesolothic time. They both spread from the Baltic, after ice-time - born out of the same original "proto-caucasians" that had survived in a "biotic refugia" - up north, during the end of ice-time, according to the more recent sources.

The Finns spread east-wards over a vast area - from Transylvania to Tocharia. We see those traces already during the various stages of stone-age.

In western Europe these eastern Finns were originally called "Vaner" or "Vends" ("Vene", "Wende" "Wendi") - carrying amber from the Baltic to the Black Sea - and onwards. Thus we find "Schytian" mummies in their easternmost off-springs - the Tarim-bassin, in present China. The Chinese wall pretty much explains their eastern border.

Simultaniously another branch of people came out of the Himalayan mountains - that later made it along the northern coast of Russia to Scandinavia. Thus we have Samojeds and Sami.  The Himalayan population had kept the contact with their southern brothers much longer though, since they did not live isolated from their tropical origin during ice-time, but rather as the northenmost branch of the asian peoples. Thus we see their pigmentation to be far more intact - compared to the "refugians" that became the caucasian origin.

Jams,
The present population of Samis are definitly "European", in any juridical term, whatsoever. But their etnic and cultural characteristics originates from an altaic descent - not much doubt about that. Most of the northern samis still carry their pigment very clearly, as do the eskimos and the aleut-inuits.

Thus you were absolutely correct about Anna Kriistina Juuso. I just wonder if she could pass in a mongolian or tibetan beuty-contest?!

These mongolian branches have traditionally lived by a nomadic life-style and used the "Yur-ta-principle" when building their homes. Thus  have the circular cone-building as "lavvus" and "tipis" on each side of the north Atlantic, paralell to the squares and angles of the eurasian settlers.

As they have settled inbetween Scandinavians, Finns and American Indians they have adapted different morphologic traits that separate them genetically - today. But they still all share a common origin - as can be seen also in their respective traditions of architecture, life-style, clothing and cultural expressions. Their long, due and close relationship with the Finnish tribes of eastern Russia have made  very special impact on the western branch of the Himalayan descendants, as they have adapted to the Finno-Ugrian language.

Thus they were able to live successfully and prosperously side by side - for millenias - without ever getting into serious conflicts. Because they had a very clear division of culture - the Samojoeds and Samis were high-landers that lived "with a ligth bag" - with seasonal migrations to get to the scarcer sources of nature. Meanwhile the Finns would stick to their forests, rivers and lowlands - for the traditional fishery, log-production, lowland agriculture, boat-building and river-trade - connected to their Scandinavian neighbours that developed coastal setlements, ships and ocean-sailings.

When these "goths" reached America they populated the empty land of the east-coast and its islands. The Norse buildings and tools from the Orkneys are very similar to the Mound-builders of the US.

Thus the Norse kept their connections across the Atlantic already during neolithic time.  As the Inuits arrived they became a normal part of the scarce northmen that inhabitated the rural, arctic part of north America - too.

Thus we may see that there are two differnt styles of life-style and architecture among the North American Indians - too. The ones that were singing - like you can hear the Norwegian joiker - you may understand what the later Norsemen called them "hollers" - which in Norwegian can  still be written "skraelings"...



Edited by Boreasi - 07-Apr-2007 at 23:28

But Finns also from Uralic region, but I do not think they have Asian root?

But some samis clearly had Asian, or Mongolian -charactheristics , they had ethnical connection with people of Siberia or east asia