Is Latin America Western?

I can't deny a Bolivian is the same people that the rest of Hispanics just based on the fact he has more "Aymara genes" than the rest.

I don't think many Aymara's (and I'm not talking about mestizos with Aymara heritage here) will like it when you label them 'western' though.

In fact one of the reasons the indigenist movement has become so strong in the past few decades is that many Latin Americans and Latin American governments still seem to insist all inhabitants of the region, from the most upperclass criollo gated communities in Las Condes and Garza García from the poorest ramshackle isolated indigenous villages in the Guatemalan highlands, Andes valleys and Amazon basin, share the same national culture.

Originally posted by pinguin Our Aymaras, Mapuches and Easter Islanders are Chileans. We don't have the habit of segregating people in different cultures. That doesn't mean we don't respect and appreciate theirs own ethnical heritage.

Most Mapuches, Aymaras and Easter Islanders* seem to disagree that they share the same culture as the people of Las Condes though. If you really think the indigenous people of the Americas don't have any problems with the fact the rest doesn't want to differentiate between indigenous and western culture I doubt if you've ever read a newspaper in the last 25 years.

And in any case, if you don't differentiate between differentiating between cultures that means a random Mapuche person is as western as you and me?

*I'm not completely sure about the Easter Islanders though.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl ...Most Mapuches, Aymaras and Easter Islanders* seem to disagree that they share the same culture as the people of Las Condes though. If you really think the indigenous people of the Americas don't have any problems with the fact the rest doesn't want to differentiate between indigenous and western culture I doubt if you've ever read a newspaper in the last 25 years. And in any case, if you don't differentiate between differentiating between cultures that means a random Mapuche person is as western as you and me? *I'm not completely sure about the Easter Islanders though.

Edited by pinguin - 25-Mar-2009 at 19:04

Originally posted by Mixcoatl I'm not talking about Mapuche friends or Mapuche ascendancy, I don't doubt that you are genuinely intested in Mapuche culture. I'm talking about the Mapuche cultural-political movement here. Mapuche want to have their own legal and political systems, different from the Chilean national one (a western one), recognized. They claim land based on traditional (non-western) views of ownership. They want an official status for the Mapuche language. Etc. If a people claim things like that it's obvious that they don't want to assimilate to mainstream/western/mestizo/whatever you want to call it Chilean culture and want to be recognized as a separate ethnicity. And it's not just the Mapuche: movements like this are found all over the region. Bolivia being currently the most prominent example. Their new constitution explicitly states Bolivia is a pluri-ethnic country. The Zapatista uprising in Mexico of 1994 was for a large part fuelled by the inability of the Mexican government (and population) to recognize the indigenous cultures as distinct from the national one. Then there's the Mayan movement in Guatemala, the CONAIE in Ecuador, the etnocaceristas in Peru, the movement of the Amazonian indians in Brazil. Whether you like it or not (I also have my reservations myself), indigenous groups all over the continent are asserting their rights to be recognized as different from the dominant (western) national cultures.

Does this movement involve the majority of the people or only some groups?

Sometimes a minority of independentists living in the Western World makes a lot of noise and gives a fake image of their counterparts' opinion. In Alsace there are some people who say they're German and not French, and ask for independence, but they're extremely small in number because most Alsatians identify with France.

Can someone tell me what the purpose of this thread is at page 11?  I do not see anyone being convinced that Latin America is or is not "western." 

Originally posted by goldenstar Does this movement involve the majority of the people or only some groups? Sometimes a minority of independentists living in the Western World makes a lot of noise and gives a fake image of their counterparts' opinion. In Alsace there are some people who say they're German and not French, and ask for independence, but they're extremely small in number because most Alsatians identify with France.

It depends heavily from country to country and from group to group.

Bolivia is the best example nowadays. 61% of the population is indigenous and Evo Morales has won the presidency with 53%. Of course not every indigenous voted for Morales and not all Morales voters are indigenous, but it is saying something. And in Bolivia there's also a movement that's more radical than Morales and his MAS, which is Pachakuti led by Felipe Quispe, who has a kind of 'if we get in power we'll see if we allow the criollos and mestizos to stay in Bolivia, rhetoric. He got 6% in the last presidential elections. Both Quispe and Morales are Aymaras, and Aymaras are usually considered to be more involved in the indigenist movement than Quechuas, the other big indigenous group

Another very good example is Ecuador, where about 25% of the population. The main indigenous organization, CONAIE, has repeatedly contributed to the downfall of presidents in the last 15 years, and the two previous presidents have been elected in large part thanks to indigenous support.

The most noteworthy group in Mexico (10-15% indigenous) is the EZLN, the Zapatista National Liberation Movement. I am not really sure, but I have been under the impression that the EZLN is more popular amongst leftwing university students than amongst indigenous groups. Nonetheless they definately thank their existance in a large part to indigenous support.

In the last presidential elections in Peru (40% indigenous) one of the main candidates, Ollanta Humala, ran on a platform referring to indigenous values, but he was (very) narrowly defeated in the second round. I don't know that much about Peru, but I think many mestizos in Peru also identify rather strongly with indigenous culture, more so than in most other Latin American countries.

The Mapuche movement in Chile (10% indigenous) is usually considered one the most well organized ones and they probably have a significant share of support amongst the Mapuche, but I'm not sure how many.

There's also an indigenist movement in Guatemala (45% indigenous), but it's not really strong. Guatemala is very weird sociopoliticaly anyway, religious differences and activism seem to be much more important than indigenism nowadays.

A funny way to see the differences between the different counties: if you use Google image search with 'movimiento maya guatemala' you'l mostly get folcloric or touristy pictures, and if you see an activist it's almost always Rigoberta Menchú (who won the Nobel peace prize in 1992, she ran for president in 2007 and got only 2% of the vote - most of it in Guatemala City). Google 'movimiento mapuche chile' and almost all pictures will contain activists.

In any case to my knowledge there are very few if any groups that demand independence.

Originally posted by pinguin   It is more complex than that. There is not a clear cut division between Mapuches and the rest of Chileans. That's something both groups know.

Of course there's no clear cut division. But that doesn't mean there is no division at all, or that you could just as well lump them together.

I can make phone calls with my computer, so the distinction between telephones and computers are starting to blurr as well, but that doesn't mean I call my computer a telephone.

Bulldog. Our dear dog. Please, go to bark to another thread. Thanks.

Sorry. It was just a bad joke. Let's continue... please.

Originally posted by pinguin   However half the programs on TV I have seen in my life (how many thousand hours?) come from the U.S. I can see the way Americans think just looking at how they are on TV.

Oh my GAWD!!! This is getting to be so absolutely hilarious! You have got to be kidding? Uh... please, please tell me you are kidding?

Originally posted by pinguin I lived in Canada among English speakers, and I met several Americans there. I know how the average person thinks.

Well, i am certainly glad that you and pebbles knows what the average US citizen thinks, because i certainly don't know what they are thinking at any given time!

And my conclusion is: for the average American either we are all Mexicans or we live in the jungle hunting birds with bowpipes..

Now that conclusion is confusing. Tell me, who in the world is telling you all of this?