QuoteReplyTopic: Is Latin America Western? Posted: 18-Mar-2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by Bulldog
...Also in Peru they are majority. There are also countries in Latin America with less than 10% White European populations.
That's three countries with an Amerindian majority, many countries with mixed Amerindian/European/Black populations and countries with White European minorities. White Europeans are 30-40% of population of Latin America.
There is an obvious difference between Latin America and U.S.A
...
So, do you believe mixed people don't have the same European culture than the pure European? If you believe so, you are wrong. The 10% European stat above is for pure Europeans only, arriving recently. Which are indeed very few.
Originally posted by Bulldog
... But they're all from Europe, however, Amerindian is a different world to Europe, its like comparing apples and oranges.
...
I see. I have the impression you got your idea of Latin America seeing John Wayne movies and watching the very biassed reports of the BBC, that only show the extremely poor people in the Americas. And I bet you believe all the "Indians" of Latin America live in the Amazon.
Pinguin So, do you believe Europeans didn't bring theirs culture,
language, music and religion to Latin America? So you believe those
Europeans didn't impose theirs culture upon Indians? Unbelievable, how
inconsistent are your arguments.
They did but wern't as effective as in the U.S to wiping out the indegenous presence. The Amerindians in Latin America have retained their language, music, aspects of their religions and culture. They have been influenced by the Europeans to a large degree ofcourse but they also influenced the Europeans to an extent themselves.
Pinguin So, you are the gatekeeper. And, of course, London must be the hub of the West
London is a hub of the West ofcourse
Pinguin We know it is unique, and we love it that way. However, we are entitled
to be Westerners by culture and by blood. And we won't renounce to it.
If your unique and love it, you shouldn't get frustrated at some people who don't accept Latin Americans as Westerners.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Pinguin Make me a favour. Buy a ticket and see yourself.
I went to Ecuador, Brazil and Venezuela and it didn't remind me of Europe or Spain but they were just short holidays, I'm no expert
I'm not saying Latin-America isn't Western as some sort of insult or slur, I say it out of respect, to me it was unique and I had a nice experience, better than some parts of the "West"
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
In common usage, the term is sometimes meant to refer to the Celto-Scando-Germanic cultures, i.e. Austria, Germany, France, the Low Countries, the Scandinavian countries, and the UK + Ireland. Spain, of course, was once a major center of Celtic culture but this part of Spain's heritage was so diluted by Latin and Islamic influences that it falls outside of the above group.
.
That's a wrong usage of the term. In Spanish at least we call it the Nordic/ Germanic cultures, or world, to differentiate of the Latin and Slavic cultures.
Nordic/Germanic would be inappropriate. Ireland has very little Germanic influence, neither does France, yet they are part of this particular cultural grouping. Britain is only partially Germanic.
"Western" has (at least) two levels of meaning: the first is equivalent to the term "occidental", and embraces most of Europe, with Eastern Europe being a bit of a grey area. It is a correct usage of the term, and generally denotes Roman influence.
The second means the cultures of Western Europe only, not the whole of the western continent of Europe. Western Europe does not include Spain or Italy; they are part of Southern Europe. This, too, is a correct usage of the term.
There are other correct usages of the same term that exclude Europe altogether (eg Western Hemisphere) or even eastern North America (eg "Westerns", the film and literary genre).
. They did but wern't as effective as in the U.S to wiping out the indegenous presence. The Amerindians in Latin America have retained their language, music, aspects of their religions and culture. They have been influenced by the Europeans to a large degree ofcourse but they also influenced the Europeans to an extent themselves.
So, you mean that to be efficient they should have resort to genocide, like your ancestors did with the North American Indians? You should be glad that when Romans tought your barbarian ancestors the Western civilization, they didn't wipe them out of existence; like you guys did.
Originally posted by Bulldog
.
London is a hub of the West ofcourse
Sure. Without American help and pitty, London wouldn't have survived WWII. Be glad Britain become an American colony at the right time
Originally posted by Bulldog
. If your unique and love it, you shouldn't get frustrated at some people who don't accept Latin Americans as Westerners.
I am not frustrated. I just see in you the exclusion that your arrogant country have always apply, not only with Latin America, but with the Iberian world as well.
Yes, we know you people considere us inferior, and that we don't deserve the sacred name "Western", but who cares? Sooner or later, when the numbers of WASP decline, we will rewrite history, anyways...
I am not frustrated. I just see in you the exclusion that your
arrogant country have always apply, not only with Latin America, but
with the Iberian world as well.
Yes, we know you people considere us inferior, and that we don't
deserve the sacred name "Western", but who cares? Sooner or later, when
the numbers of WASP decline, we will rewrite history, anyways...
Fighting against stereotypes is a noble cause, but slinging stereotypical ad hominems around yourself is not really going to help you. Neither does showing off a cultural persecution complex.
... I went to Ecuador, Brazil and Venezuela and it didn't remind me of Europe or Spain but they were just short holidays, I'm no expert
I'm not saying Latin-America isn't Western as some sort of insult or slur, I say it out of respect, to me it was unique and I had a nice experience, better than some parts of the "West"
Yes, I know you are saying that out of your lack of knowledge about the topic.
The definition of Western Civilization is:
Greek-Roman culture plus Jewish-Christian religion.
So, if you are going to be serious, the real Western countries are only Greece and Italy.
...Fighting against stereotypes is a noble cause, but slinging stereotypical ad hominems around yourself is not really going to help you. Neither does showing off a cultural persecution complex.
Complex? It is nothing imaginary. It is well known that Britain has been the worst enemy of Spain forever. There is a hate and downplaying that is almost pathological from Britain to other Latin countries, such as Spain, Iberia, Portugal, Italy and including France!
The discrimination against Iberia, in particular, and now against Latin America is just a bit more of the same. That's something that is very clear in our culture. And they don't fool us.
I remember a Christmas message of the British Queen to the Commonwealth, in which the old lady said "Thanks God we aren't Spaniards"...
Yes, our bigotry detector is not wrong, particularly when the fingers point to us..
Pinguin So, if you are going to be serious, the real Western countries are only Greece and Italy.
Go anywere outside the West today and ask what a Westerner is, were all influenced by the Hollywood and U.S media, a Westerner is stereotypically an English speaking, white person of European descent.
There are no countries which have an ancient Roman or ancient Greek culture today, the Romans split with Christianity, there is the Catholic world, Orthodox world and Protestant world. The Protestant world was never "really" Roman, I mean yes parts were conquered but they were not significant Roman cultural areas (I'm referring to Northern Europe) and didn't have much contacts with the ancient Greeks. Also another twist is that Greece is more similar to the Levant than to England or Holland.
Pinguin
If you really believe that, please stop talking so much nonsense.
There are no superior/inferior cultures in my opinion, its a subjective matter anyway.
Pinguin
Complex? It is nothing imaginary. It is well known that Britain
has been the worst enemy of Spain forever. There is a hate and
downplaying that is almost pathological from Britain to other Latin
countries, such as Spain, Iberia, Portugal, Italy and including France!
Are you serious? There is no sense of hatred or being an enemy with Spain in Britain, I don't know were you got that from. They haven't even had a war since the Armada...
Also you can't lump Spain, Portugal, Italy and France together.
If there is one country the average Brit has rivalry with its France or Germany, they are the only two countries that people can be described as having some hate for.
However, regarding Spain? people go on holiday there, that's what its known for.
Italy? they have nice food.
Portugal? Christiano Ronaldo
Pinguin
The discrimination against Iberia, in particular, and now against
Latin America is just a bit more of the same. That's something that is
very clear in our culture. And they don't fool us.
I've never witnessed any widespread discrimination or hatred against Latin Americans in Britain, care to give any examples?
Edited by Bulldog - 19-Mar-2009 at 01:28
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
,,,Go anywere outside the West today and ask what a Westerner is, were all influenced by the Hollywood and U.S media, a Westerner is stereotypically an English speaking, white person of European descent.
Since the last census in 2001, it seems likely that the ethnic and country-of-birth composition of the London population has changed, particularly with the accession to the European Union of ten new member states in May 2004 and two more in January 2007, since nationals of these states are now able to live and work in the UK. The size of the Polish-born population in particular is likely to have increased, but no reliable estimates of the size of this population are available.
In January 2005, a survey of London's ethnic and religious diversity claimed that there were more than 300 languages spoken and 50 non-indigenous communities with a population of more than 10,000 in London
Originally posted by Bulldog
There are no countries which have an ancient Roman or ancient Greek culture today, the Romans split with Christianity, there is the Catholic world, Orthodox world and Protestant world. The Protestant world was never "really" Roman, I mean yes parts were conquered but they were not significant Roman cultural areas (I'm referring to Northern Europe) and didn't have much contacts with the ancient Greeks. Also another twist is that Greece is more similar to the Levant than to England or Holland.
Indeed, you people should be excluded from Western Civilization. In fact, English is a Barbarian language, unlike Spanish which is a form of Latin...
You follow an artificial religion, instead of the "authentic" ROMAN Catholic Church, where all the elements, the Pope included, comes from Rome.
You know, man, Latin American cultures are a lot closer to Italy, rather than to the ethnic Britain.
Originally posted by Bulldog
There are no superior/inferior cultures in my opinion, its a subjective matter anyway.
Yes, it is like in the communist party. They all are comrade cultures. Only that some give the orders and the other obey them
Originally posted by Bulldog
Are you serious? There is no sense of hatred or being an enemy with Spain in Britain, I don't know were you got that from. They haven't even had a war since the Armada...
Yes, I am.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Also you can't lump Spain, Portugal, Italy and France together.
What's the difference? They are all Latin countries
Originally posted by Bulldog
If there is one country the average Brit has rivalry with its France or Germany, they are the only two countries that people can be described as having some hate for.
Curiosly, Germans seems to understand Latinos better.
Originally posted by Bulldog
However, regarding Spain? people go on holiday there, that's what its known for. Italy? they have nice food. Portugal? Christiano Ronaldo
Yes, Spain lives very much on tourism, and Christiano Ronaldo is not Portuguese.
Originally posted by Bulldog
I've never witnessed any widespread discrimination or hatred against Latin Americans in Britain, care to give any examples?
...Fighting against stereotypes is a noble cause, but slinging stereotypical ad hominems around yourself is not really going to help you. Neither does showing off a cultural persecution complex.
Complex? It is nothing imaginary. It is well known that Britain has been the worst enemy of Spain forever. There is a hate and downplaying that is almost pathological from Britain to other Latin countries, such as Spain, Iberia, Portugal, Italy and including France!
Pardon the intrusion here, but i thought Portugal and Britain were still allies and have been ever since the 16th century? Did i miss something?
The discrimination against Iberia, in particular, and now against Latin America is just a bit more of the same. That's something that is very clear in our culture. And they don't fool us.
Now I'd understand a bit if you were talking about the Americans, being as Latinos are an underclass as the US and there is a good degree of socioeconomic and geopolitical conflict between Latin Americans and US Americans but ...
From the British??!!??
Pinguin, the British don't have any particular hostility towards Latin Americans at all - in fact, they generally regard Latin America as a rather interesting (if dangerous) place to visit. They have a few stereotypes regarding the Spanish, but these mostly belong to a generation that has passed on and generally refer to a Spain of the past i.e. Spain of the 1500s and 1600s. There is no great national rivalry with Spain, nothing even remotely approaching the great national rivalry the British have with France or Ireland or Germany or even amongst themselves (ie Scotland vs England, and Northern England vs Southern England).
The war with Argentina was not a matter of bigotry, it was a simple territorial dispute with an Argentinian military regime that attempted to seize land inhabited by English speaking people. It could have been a dispute with any similar sort of country. It could have happened between, say, Canada and France if Canada attempted to seize St. Pierre and Miquelon by military force - there is no doubt whatsoever that France would respond with armed force.
Thousands of volunteers from the UK went to fight and die in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War, so obviously the British have little innate hostility. Some of them were quite famous cultural figures, such as George Orwell and John Cornford. There is no mention from this time period of the volunteers being maligned at home for fighting alongside Spanish people, for a Spanish cause. They were maligned for being communists and anarchists, but that is about all, and they are not generally maligned today. There is even a monument to them in London:
British (and American) society didn't exactly cheer when the Luftwaffe bombed Guernica, either. They were utterly horrified and outraged.
I might also note that it's mostly British genetic scientists and authors, such as Stephen Oppenheimer and Brian Sykes, who are pioneering the theory that the closest genetic relatives of the British isles in Europe are not in Germany or France - but in Iberia.
Yes, our bigotry detector is not wrong, particularly when the fingers point to us..
Indeed, your bigotry detector ought to be pointing its finger at you. This old bugbear of the evil, scheming, hateful "Gringo" appears to be alive and well in you.
It is well known that Britain has been the worst enemy of Spain forever.There is a hate and downplaying that is almost pathological from Britain to other Latin countries,such as Spain, Iberia, Portugal, Italy and including France!
The discrimination against Iberia, in particular, and now against Latin America is just a bit more of the same. That's something that is very clear in our culture. And they don't fool us.
I remember a Christmas message of the British Queen to the Commonwealth, in which the old lady said "Thanks God we aren't Spaniards"...
Even me an Asian person could sense subtle " ethnic " snub and prejudice,as I've repeatedly wrote in regard to relations between Latin America and USA .
Evita Peron was welcomed with red carpet in Spain and Italy,but snubbed by England's royal family .
I know Britain & France are longlasting traditional enemies.Wow it's that bad between English & Iberia peninsula.
I went to Ecuador, Brazil and Venezuela and it didn't remind me of Europe or Spain but they were just short holidays, I'm no expert
Nowhere in America reminds any European of it's Europe or Britain.1950's was the last decade of Eurocentrism in America.
I've read countless comments written by British and continental Europeans that they felt like in an " alien " culture or " foreign " country during their visit in the USA.
Nowhere in America reminds any European of it's Europe or Britain.1950's was the last decade of Eurocentrism in America.
Well ... I would have to say Newfoundland/Labrador could probably make the claim of being not terribly different. There are very few minorities, and the dialect is different from anything else in the Americas:
...Fighting against stereotypes is a noble cause, but slinging stereotypical ad hominems around yourself is not really going to help you. Neither does showing off a cultural persecution complex.
Complex? It is nothing imaginary. It is well known that Britain has been the worst enemy of Spain forever. There is a hate and downplaying that is almost pathological from Britain to other Latin countries, such as Spain, Iberia, Portugal, Italy and including France!
The discrimination against Iberia, in particular, and now against Latin America is just a bit more of the same. That's something that is very clear in our culture. And they don't fool us.
I remember a Christmas message of the British Queen to the Commonwealth, in which the old lady said "Thanks God we aren't Spaniards"...
Yes, our bigotry detector is not wrong, particularly when the fingers point to us..
Indeed, you people should be excluded from Western Civilization.
In fact, English is a Barbarian language, unlike Spanish which is a
form of Latin...
You follow an artificial religion, instead of the "authentic" ROMAN Catholic Church, where all the elements, the Pope included, comes from Rome.
You know, man, Latin American cultures are a lot closer to Italy, rather than to the ethnic Britain.
The thing is, the UK, U.S or any other Western country isn't fixated about being "Western", they don't need to proove their Westerness to anybody. If you have to try an "convince" people your Western, there is obviously a problem. Anyone that has to try and "proove" their place in a club is never really a part of that club.
Latin American cultures arn't similar to that of Italy, Italy has its own culture and even sub cultures.
Pinguin Yes, I am.
Well there is hardly any Spanish hatred among the people, media or government, your confusing Spain with France or Germany.
Pinguin What's the difference? They are all Latin countries
Tell an Italian, Portuguese, French and Spaniard that they're all the same
Pinguin and Christiano Ronaldo is not Portuguese.
Did I miss the joke? were you being sarcastic or did you mean that.
Pinguin Yes, your oppinions.
I said countless times I am really interested by the old history of Latin America, admire the culture and have friends from the region.
Saying Latin America is not Western is not discrimination or hatred, its a view, to me Latin America is unique its Latin American, has aspects of the West, aspects of Amerindians, aspects of other cultures and is itself and doesn't need to be like anybody else. But that's just my opinion and its not an insult or slur as I don't believe the West or anybody else is "superior".
Not being Western is not an insult or discrimination, anybody who thinks it is has an inferiority complex.
P.s Spain looks down upon and is far more disciminatory towards Latin Americans than any other European country, I have Spanish friends and their views on Latin Americans are less than favourable. Its not Britain you should be pointing fingers at i this case.
Why do you want to be Western so much when you can't stand them.
Edited by Bulldog - 19-Mar-2009 at 12:29
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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