Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Greeks??? Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:08 |
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.
how much of this is true?
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:17 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture. how much of this is true? |
Let me know if the links don't work.
Edited by Hellios - 24-Mar-2007 at 14:26
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:52 |
I thank you kindly HELLIOS LOTS OF INFO. i will read it(how more I read the more i get intrested) But not all at once it's alot. from what I have read sofar the sub-saharab thing is incorrect. I allways thought greeks were diffrent than the rest of europe. Thanks
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:52 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.
how much of this is true?
|
It's true, we all originate from sub-saharan Africa.
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:56 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.
how much of this is true?
|
It's true, we all originate from sub-saharan Africa. |
hehehe I know but what I ment was more "recent'
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 17:58 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.
how much of this is true?
|
Do you have any study that support your claim ?
|
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:20 |
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.
how much of this is true?
|
Do you have any study that support your claim ? |
Thats why I said I have heared. Don't get your panties in a twist buddy
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
Spartakus
Tsar
terörist
Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:25 |
We are Indo-Europeans,like Iranians.
|
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:27 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
We are Indo-Europeans,like Iranians. |
isn't that a language group?
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
Spartakus
Tsar
terörist
Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:35 |
It is ,but in my personal opinion,language is one of the really few trustworthy things when we search connection with the past.I am not so fond of Genetics.
|
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:37 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
It is ,but in my personal opinion,language is one of the really few trustworthy things when we search connection with the past.I am not so fond of Genetics. |
hmmm yeah I used to think so 2 but I think only in grammar & such because I don't thrust vocabulary(loaning can happen & does happen)
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:38 |
There is a campain of the Afrocentrist to demostrate Greeks were actually Ethiopians. Afrocentrism is an international political campain to demostrate the center of the universe was Bantu.
There is no much substance at all in their claims, though.
Greeks were Greeks, and they are still Greeks. Period.
Pinguin
|
|
Spartakus
Tsar
terörist
Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:39 |
Personaly,i prefer Isocrates :A Hellen/Greek is the one who has Hellenic/Greek education.
|
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:40 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture. how much of this is true? |
Originally posted by akritas
Do you have any study that support your claim ? |
He didn't "claim" anything - he just asked a question.
|
|
xi_tujue
Arch Duke
Atabeg
Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
Personaly,i prefer Isocrates :A Hellen/Greek is the one who has Hellenic/Greek education. |
I agree with him 100%
|
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
|
|
malizai_
Sultan
Alcinous
Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 23:03 |
..the common factors of our Greekness, blood, language, the sacntuaries of the gods and their sacrifices, the same way of life..
Herodotus, vII, 144 (c430 bc)
|
|
Athanasios
Colonel
Joined: 23-Jan-2007
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 546
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 23:52 |
Originally posted by pinguin
There is a campain of the Afrocentrist to demostrate Greeks were actually Ethiopians. Afrocentrism is an international political campain to demostrate the center of the universe was Bantu.
There is no much substance at all in their claims, though.
Greeks were Greeks, and they are still Greeks. Period.
Pinguin
|
Oh,yeah the Afrocentrists ....
anyway, that which was said from isocrates doesn't match with today's standarts...(unfortunately for us Greeks).
"the common factors of our Greekness, blood, language, the sacntuaries of the gods and their sacrifices, the same way of life.."
Thats a common truth for all the nations, i agree with the second and the last one ...
|
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 04:36 |
Was not the Afrocentrists that started the sub-saharan issue but the FYROMacedonian propagandists by the Spanish lab of Villena. Arnaiz Villena was taken to court for embezzlement charges for the unauthorized use of laboratory and immunological items. Which proves one thing that papers was politically motivated as the Luca Cavalli-Sforza , Neil Risch and Alberto Piazza stated.
And The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans and this lab publihed and one more poltical motivated genetic paper by show that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans
xi_tujue knows very well where he "heared" this racist "rumour".
Edited by akritas - 25-Mar-2007 at 04:40
|
|
|
Hellios
Arch Duke
Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 05:02 |
akritas, maybe you missed the post where he agrees the theory is false, here it is again:
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I thank you kindly HELLIOS LOTS OF INFO.
i will read it (how more I read the more i get intrested) But not all at once it's alot. from what I have read so far the sub-saharab thing is incorrect... |
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 19:03 |
I, personally, do not find Arnaiz-Villena's arguments about greeks convincing but I feel important to make some remarks about Villena himself.
This guy published up to date 221 articles (f.e. 8 in 2006) in peer-reviewed journals i.e. journals where political motivation can be refused by 2 or 3 anonymous referees. Total citation index of 10 of his best cited papers is 413. This is very good achievement for everyone working in the field of biology. This, basically, means that his colleagues have respect to his work which is obviously politically not motivated.
And here are some comments to the below:
Originally posted by akritas
Arnaiz-Villena was taken to court for embezzlement charges for the unauthorized use of laboratory and immunological items.
|
Science is a business like any other way of getting money. There is no political motivation in unauthorized use of laboratory items. Here is the explanation about the court stuff:
Spanish immunologist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, the author of a paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians, has been suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre in Madrid, where he heads the department of immunology and molecular biology, after being charged with embezzlement of funds.
Dr Arnaiz-Villena, president of Spain's National Commission of Immunology, was the author of a polemical paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians that was retracted and deleted from records last autumn. In it he said that some Palestinians lived in concentration camps.
The embezzlement charges refer to Dr Arnaiz's purchase of products not used in his department's healthcare activities; purchase of hospital products used in healthcare activities but in quantities much greater than needed; falsification of statistical data apparently to justify purchases; humiliating treatment of department staff; delay in healthcare activities; and transfer of department products to the university.
Pilar Notario, spokeswoman for the hospital, said the products referred to were mainly laboratory and immunological items, some of which were allegedly transferred without permission to the university for research purposes, resulting in delay in doing immunological tests for patients.
She said the health ministry's Social Security Investigation Groupa police bodyestimates the fraud may mean the hospital has lost 860000 (531000; $756000) over the past five years. The final figure may reach 3.9m.
In addition to the charges, Dr Arnaiz-Villena is facing allegations of moral harassment at the Universidad Complutense de Madrid, where he chairs a research and teaching immunology unit.
Last October, the university started an internal inquiry after complaints by an associate professor at the unit, Mara Jos Recio-Hoyas, whose contract for the academic course 2001-2 was not renewed because Dr Arnaiz- Villena delivered a negative report against her. Among other things, she told the BMJ, Dr Arnaiz- Villena accused her of misappropriating a DNA sequence of 930 base pairs of the DMB primate gene from his personal gene registry at the university.
Dr Arnaiz-Villena told the BMJ that he discovered that Dr Recio-Hoyas had registered the sequence in the gene bank database of the European Molecular Biology Laboratory in Heidelberg, Germany, in her name without telling him. Although she acknowledged that she took the sequence (essential material for her doctoral thesis), she said that she registered it in both their names at the laboratory.
Dr Recio-Hoyas has subsequently had her contract renewed as associate professor after an investigation by the university into her complaint of moral harassment.
Dr Arnaiz-Villena denies all the charges against him. He said he is undergoing a public lynching, which may have a political background. I don't know whether it's just by chance, but problems started shortly after the Human Immunology thing, he said, referring to events surrounding publication of a paper of his last year on the genetic profile of Palestinians.
This incident, believed to be the first time a paper published in a peer reviewed biomedical journal has been retracted as a result of political comments, began when Dr Arnaiz-Villena was invited to be a guest editor of the September issue of Human Immunologythe official journal of the American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics. His paper examined the genetic profile of Palestinians compared with Jews and other populations in the region. The study included a summary of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which prompted ferocious complaints.
Dr Nicole Suciu-Foca, editor in chief of the journal, and Dr Robert Lewis of the society's publications committee, condemned the paper in the October issue of the journal and stated that it had been deleted from the scientific literature. At the time, Dr Arnaiz-Villena, who was fired from the journal's editorial board, apologised for any offence caused by his paper but called the unprecedented action unwise.
Both the hospital and the university say that Dr Arnaiz- Villena's current charges have nothing to do with the Human Immunology affair.
|
So the trial is clearly concerned to financial question between two laboratories and has nothing to do with the proof of this:
Which proves one thing that papers was politically motivated as
|
because the personality of a scientists has nothing to do with his research unless it had been proven. In the case of prof. Arnaiz-Villena the major question was in interpretation of the obtained results and political comment on Palestinian-Jewish conflict.
the Luca Cavalli-Sforza , Neil Risch and Alberto Piazza stated.
|
Those guys wrote a letter to Nature with disagreement of Arnaiz-Villena's results and their interpretation. They stated that using of one genetical marker for determination of the origin of a nation might lead to wrong conclusions. This was accepted by Villena in his response in the same issue of Nature where he also said that he is studying the problem using other genetical markes. Agressive tone of Cavalli-Sforza could be also explained by the fact that results obtained by Arnaiz-Villena contradict to the works of Cavalli-Sforza and company. Such wars happen in scientific community permanently and one can find them in every issue of Nature and Science.
and this lab publihed and one more poltical motivated genetic paper by show that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans |
There was no such article from his lab. If I am wrong you are very welcome to correct me. Here are all articles of Villena with "japanese" keyword. Point the article that you mentioned.
Obviously, you took this passage from Cavalli-Sforza's letter to Nature without much understanding what it is about:
The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
So, this is related to a fact from the same paper of Arnaiz-Villena which indeed shows that using of one genetical marker might be dangerous. As for the agressive tone -- I already explained it.
So, basic conclusion is that professor Arnaiz-Villena is respected scientist whether his conclusions are true or not. And it is bad idea for the people who obviously are far from biology to make attempts compromise this person.
Edited by Anton - 25-Mar-2007 at 19:21
|
.
|
|