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erkut View Drop Down
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:25
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
 
Because It is state school(please stop to see school as a simple club.) what If same school say, come to school naked? will you call it as school right?
 
 
Murtaza; nudety in school is forbidden(İ am sure this ban is totaly logical for you).
But hijap in school is also forbidden.
So you cant go to a school naked or you cant go to a school just like ninja.
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
But why should she do? are schools only non-muslims?
 
It is weird we  see it so much different. I can accept ban of private schools, but not public schools.  Public schools are for everyone, not only people who find veiling rude.
 
 
Well because those are secular schools. İf you want go to a school with hijap you shold go to a islamic school.
 
 
And by the way you think this is islam?
8-12 year old muslim girls should wear hijap you think?
You know why hijap ordered by Qour'an? Because of adultry(sex is forbidden without marriage)Thats why womans only shows herselves to thier family. But we are talking about little girls for god sake. They dont need to wear hijap.
(By the way i think nobody needs hijap)
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Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Answer please:
  1. Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
  2. Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
  3. And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
 
 
Some of the dumbest and fascist set of questions i have seen so far:
 
1. New school rules: all boys and girls must shower together, and have lunch naked in school hall.(Hypothetically) it wouldn't happen because schools would have to follow guidelines. Who draws out those guidelines, well it won't be the school. Work it out.
 
2.Here quite frankly you need to get of ur high horse and stop insulting other people's cultures. It is laughable how u fail to see ur own rudeness, yet are debating how something seems rude to you.CryCryCry
 
3.All the lip service to Rosa Park, crying for the state of muslim women's affair across the other half of the planet goes out of the window with this comment, I can just imagine no blacks/dogs/niqabs. What else is the meaning of segregation?
 
 
Do NOT call me a fascist. Ever.
 
And your answers are stupid enough not to warrant a reply.

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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:35
Murtaza; nudety in school is forbidden(İ am sure this ban is totaly logical for you).
But hijap in school is also forbidden.
So you cant go to a school naked or you cant go to a school just like ninja.
 
at least, try to be more objective. Ninja parts are a little derigotary. I think becoming naked generally accepted harmful.If reason is ethic, I am against it. Everyone have right to follow their ethic.
 
Well because those are secular schools. İf you want go to a school with hijap you shold go to a islamic school.
 
secular, not atheist.. Schools should be indifferent against all religions.
 
And by the way you think this is islam?
 
It is not acording to me but this is their belief. I dont see alevis islam totally true and I dont impose my islam to them.why should I impose my islam to these people?
 
 
 
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:35
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Answer please:
  1. Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
  2. Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
  3. And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
 
 
Some of the dumbest and fascist set of questions i have seen so far:
 
1. New school rules: all boys and girls must shower together, and have lunch naked in school hall.(Hypothetically) it wouldn't happen because schools would have to follow guidelines. Who draws out those guidelines, well it won't be the school. Work it out.
 
2.Here quite frankly you need to get of ur high horse and stop insulting other people's cultures. It is laughable how u fail to see ur own rudeness, yet are debating how something seems rude to you.CryCryCry
 
3.All the lip service to Rosa Park, crying for the state of muslim women's affair across the other half of the planet goes out of the window with this comment, I can just imagine no blacks/dogs/niqabs. What else is the meaning of segregation?
 
 
Do NOT call me a fascist. Ever.
 
And your answers are stupid enough not to warrant a reply.
 
Do NOT call me a stupid. Ever.
 
And your answers are stupid enough not to warrant a reply.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:36
And Bytheway Murtaza İ am not atheist. İ mean you cant call me atheist juust because i am against hijap. Peopels are not worshiping to hijap, hijap is not the God. So being against hijap does not mean being against the God.
 
For me i am not a Muslim anymore. Well i was a Muslim(Even i was İmam in my school mescid)
Now i just belive in one God, but İ dont belive in any religion.  
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:41
And Bytheway Murtaza İ am not atheist. İ mean you cant call me atheist juust because i am against hijap
 
I did not call you atheist because of hijap. I remember you as atheist. It looks like I made mistake. I apologise.
 
 
anyway, by point is. There is not right or true, but there is cultural difference.. Seeing someone brainwashed, because she have different ideas is not true.
 
afterall, All(or most) of us are products of our enviroments.(So partly brainwashed.)


Edited by Mortaza - 28-Mar-2007 at 07:43
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:47
Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Answer please:
  1. Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
  2. Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
  3. And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
 
 
Some of the dumbest and fascist set of questions i have seen so far:
 
1. New school rules: all boys and girls must shower together, and have lunch naked in school hall.(Hypothetically) it wouldn't happen because schools would have to follow guidelines. Who draws out those guidelines, well it won't be the school. Work it out.
 
2.Here quite frankly you need to get of ur high horse and stop insulting other people's cultures. It is laughable how u fail to see ur own rudeness, yet are debating how something seems rude to you.CryCryCry
 
3.All the lip service to Rosa Park, crying for the state of muslim women's affair across the other half of the planet goes out of the window with this comment, I can just imagine no blacks/dogs/niqabs. What else is the meaning of segregation?
 
 
Do NOT call me a fascist. Ever.
 
And your answers are stupid enough not to warrant a reply.
 
Do NOT call me a stupid. Ever.
 
And your answers are stupid enough not to warrant a reply.
 
Ah, I see you've decided to act the grown up way. Very good. Bravo.
 
Now, to oblige you:
1. If the parents see no problem, why not. Boys and girls changed in the same changingroom in my primary school until about age 12. Dont be such a prude. A child is a Child.
 
2. Eating in the streets during ramadan in a muslim country is rude. I would prevent it from happening. Walking in miniskirts is rude, I would not do it. What is high horse about it? There is there, here is here. If I need to burp not to insult my Chinese host, I burp. Here, I do not cover my face in the streets and I do not spit. What on earth is wrong with adapting to others peoples rules? Or should I adaps and others not? That is a bit strange.
 
3. I went to a catholic school. I am not even religious, but the public one around had a bad name. Do I feel segregated? Take a guess. Did the religious girls from the severly protestant school feel segregated? I imagine they were glad not to have to deal with a heathen like me... Do you think the boys on Eton feel segregated? After all, there are only rich male kids there. Get real.

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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:50
Education is compulsory, they cannot stop, even if they would want to.
 
so what will you do? forcefully take their veil? is this better? 
 
what will you feel If someone forcefully take some cloth of you(Because she think you are rude)?
 
Well, newsflash, not all countries are the same. Like I said, education is compulsory, so the government cannot force her to stop receiving it. That is against the law. This sais a lot more about Turkey than about other countries you know...
 
It is compulsary  at Turkey too. Not much difference.. not much newsflash. huh?
 
In my country, yes. A school erected under the philisophy of the Naturists (people who like to walk naked) can compell its students to come naked. As walking naked in the streets is not allowed, thye would have to undress upon arrival. But schools who do not support this philosphy can be expected not to accept it. As far as I know there are no Naturists schools, but there are Catholic schools, a whole range of Protestant schools, Muslim schools and Vedic schools. All of these schools receive money from the government. All of these schools can set rules on who to employ and who to teach. There are also 'public' schools, which do not promote any form of belief or philosopy. These could, in theory, ban all outings of religion, but in practice, they do generally accept things. I would not at all be surprised however, if they would draw the line at covering faces.
 
so go your own school for people who find hiding face rude.
 
It does not limit religion. It just limits a small groups deviant ideas on religion. Limiting religion would mean banning all sorts of religious outings, like crosses, stars, turbans. They are not banned. It is banned to cover your face when the theacher is trying to tell you something.
 
Small or not, they are people and they have their religious ideas.
 
By the way, You did not answered which is more rude.
Well, like I said, it is especially public schools who should be able to ban people: if you cannot adhere to the common rules, you must find yourself a private school with the right to determine for themselves.
 
again we turned that there are rules accept them mentality?
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:52
Originally posted by Mortaza

And Bytheway Murtaza İ am not atheist. İ mean you cant call me atheist juust because i am against hijap
 
I did not call you atheist because of hijap. I remember you as atheist. It looks like I made mistake. I apologise.
 
 
anyway, by point is. There is not right or true, but there is cultural difference.. Seeing someone brainwashed, because she have different ideas is not true.
 
afterall, All(or most) of us are products of our enviroments.(So partly brainwashed.)
 
Your apologise is acceptedSmile
But my point is thats not those little girls idea.
 
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:54
But my point is thats not those little girls idea.
 
Indeed, my point is not using veil is not those little girls idea.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:57
I am sorry Mortaza. I cannot make my case more clear. I do not see any merit in continuing this discussion, as neither of us is going to change their opinions anyway. I still feel the same way, and I still think, jusging by your replies, that you fail to see my point completely.

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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 08:02
Originally posted by malizai_

 
 
2.Here quite frankly you need to get of ur high horse and stop insulting other people's cultures. It is laughable how u fail to see ur own rudeness, yet are debating how something seems rude to you.CryCryCry
 
 
 
Did you think this through? It's not about insulting other people's cultures. It simply is rude to cover your face when interacting with other people here. What's so hard to understand about that?!
 
 
 
I'll stop partaking here, this is leading nowhere. Just a word of reminder to Mortaza: your opinion that countries should adapt to immigrants rather than the other way around is a major source of anti-immigrant sentiments - in any place of the globe. Try to think through why.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 28-Mar-2007 at 08:07
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 08:06
dont missunderstood me, but when did covering face accepted as rude?  
 
Europeans are meeting such things new.(Or there were others people who hide their face?)
 
Aelfgifu, I agree continuing this discussion futile. Thanks anyway..
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 08:09
Originally posted by Mortaza

dont missunderstood me, but when did covering face accepted as rude?  
 
 
Since time memorial. That is, as long as people remember. No one really writes this kind of stuff down, it's just part of human behaviourial patterns. For example, since when was it rude not to look into the eyes of the person who speak to you*?
 
 
*I'm pretty sure this one is global.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 28-Mar-2007 at 08:10
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Posts: 323 		  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:03
[QUOTE=Aelfgifu]I am sorry Mortaza. I cannot make my case more clear. I do not see any merit in continuing this discussion, as neither of us is going to change their opinions anyway. I still feel the same way, and I still think, jusging by your replies, that you fail to see my point completely.[/QUOTE
 
                   
 
 
                                I'm with you 100% on that scoreClap
 
       Like I expressed already; we seem to be going round in circles. 
 
           


Edited by Scorpian - 28-Mar-2007 at 09:27
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@Aelfgifu
Thxs for the grown up reply.
 
#1.  Firstly, school extends beyond 12 and the relevance can be seen when a proper and complete view of the circumstance is taken. Secondly, u seem to be sucking on the wrong end of the lolly. In a 'PUBLIC/STATE' school on it's own DOES NOT decide what goes on within the walls, it can decide however what colour will go on the walls, how best to spend the money allocated to it etc. School governing bodies, parents and above all the ministry of education decides what is taught and how, and are responsible for the school environment.
 
For #2 and #3. Rather than going around in circles let us see what are the meaning of Rudeness, Fascism, Segregation.
 
Rudeness:
  1. A manner that is rude or insulting.
  2. a wild or unrefined state
Fascism:
  1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
  2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
  3. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Segregation:
  1. The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.
  2. The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.

So any women veiling herself becomes uncouth, wild and unrefined!!Ouch

Saying what somebody should wear or not, given that it bears no negative effects on society is a form of social control, and is classified as fascist in nature. Nobody forces u to burp and if you don't burp, nobody takes ur plate away. Most informed Chinese i hope would accept that the other person is of a different culture and would be doubly pleased if you did burp. It would be pathetic IMO if someone was offended by you not burping, when clearly knowing the difference between himself and the other person.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:24
Malizali, I am also not interested in continuing this with you, as your only arguments are accusing people with different opinions of being facist. If it bothers you so much that we do things differently, feel free to sue the Dutch state for being segregative. Fat chance.
 
 
Your whole point is faulty anyway. We have a lot of different schools. This is a right people have. Segregation is when we would force muslims to muslim schools. This we do not do. There was a whole bunch of muslim kids in my catholic school. No one is forcing anybody. And girls who only can go to muslim schools because no one accepts them, segregated themselves.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Mar-2007 at 09:30

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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:25
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
Aelfgifu, I agree continuing this discussion futile. Thanks anyway..
 
Yes, thanks... It was a good discussion anyhow...Big%20smile

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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:25
Since time memorial.
 
Since time memorial time, you did not met fully clothed people(I am not talking eye contact. I am sure eye contact is not obligatory at schools and I am sure you met a lot people who evade eye contact.) Fully clothed people are new at Europea.
 
do you find these action rude because of these people? or do you find these people rude because of this action..
 
I am sure noone will find a girl rude, If she have clothed because of sun light. So now, these girls clothed because of their religion, why do you find this rude?
 
 
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Posts: 323 		  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Malizali, I am also not interested in continuing this with you, as your only arguments are accusing people with different opinions of being facist. If it bothers you so much that we do things differently, feel free to sue the Dutch state for being segregative. Fat chance.
 
                                agree with you here tooThumbs%20Up
                                             
                                           AmenClapClapClap
 
                         
 
                    


Edited by Scorpian - 28-Mar-2007 at 09:32
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