Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Schools allowed to ban face veils

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 10>
Author
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 04:38
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

And as comparison travel agencies usually add stuff like this in their brochures: on my desk I have a magazine stating that eating out during ramadan in Zanzibar should be avoided, since it is deemed rude.

Aye, but no-one will actually stop you from doing it.

Originally posted by S&D

When Western women go to countries that require them, they have to wear them and they aren't even apart of that culture, nevermind a religious belief.

hmmm? In most muslim majority countries, take Tunisia, Egypt or Morocco for example, westerners can wear what they please. It is of course preferred that they dress up, but most still don't. There isn't any attempt to force the westerners into changing their dress (although I've heard street boys in Cairo can be pretty rude).
Originally posted by Strybiorn

They are not at all totally different. Laws reflect the society, are written by people and influenced by people. They are not independent from each other.

I glad you brought that up actually, because this is not the case in muslim countrys or thought patterns. Pre-colonialisation the Law was completely independent from the executive or populace, people are expected to obey the law, not the other way around. In Shariah law, Justice is Justice, morallity is morallity, everybody deserves Justice and should live morally, an unjust or immoral law cannot be created by government. Post colonialism most systems of law have been imposed by foriegn powers, and again, do not reflect the society. When the society does attempt to exert influence over the law, they are suppressed often by foriegn intervention or interferance.

Personally, I consider it a fundamental weakness of the western legal system that the judiciary is not independent of the executive. The executive can simply change the law. In the Islamic system the rulers have to obey the law, not the other way around.

Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 04:52
But this is not about law. No-one is discussing banning the bloody things, even though Mortaza keeps yelling so. This is about whether or not a public school can prohibit wearing it in class.
 
And if they insist on wearing it, why would going to a muslim school be a problem? No one answered that one yet.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Mar-2007 at 04:53

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:16
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Personally, I consider it a fundamental weakness of the western legal system that the judiciary is not independent of the executive. The executive can simply change the law. In the Islamic system the rulers have to obey the law, not the other way around.
 
This is interesting, because I find that having inflexible laws in an ever-changing society makes little sense. Take crime and punishment for example. During the Middle Ages those scale was quite different in Scandinavia from now. Life was extremely harsh, poor soil, cold, under-developed agriculture. Loosing certain tools or supplies or even family members, or getting beaten to become unable to work before a long winter could mean death. Thus, the vast majority of crimes - even murder - were settled with fines as compensation for the victim or his family. Theft was one of the most serious crimes.
 
There was naturally a number of crimes considered so bad that they were settled with the hardest punishment - loosing all one's land - including things like killing a man in church, sauna or Thing or in his sleep, killing a woman, tieing someone up in the forest, taking revenge on a settled crime, cutting off someone's feet or tongue or hands, killing someone's cattle, going Viking in own land etc. Today, when people are materially very rich, the hardest punishments are saved for the crimes against a person or state, like assault, murder, kidnapping and treason.
 
Although I can see your concern - I guess you are not fundamentally religious but rather worried about abuse by those in power - I do not think corruption is that widespread it is better to keep laws that were created and adapted for a society so different from ours.
 
 
 
edit: in any case this issue is not about laws, it's about forbidding face veils in school rooms, just as caps and chewing gums already are in many places.  
 
 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 28-Mar-2007 at 05:24
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:19
But this is not about law. No-one is discussing banning the bloody things, even though Mortaza keeps yelling so. This is about whether or not a public school can prohibit wearing it in class.
 
so tell me, what is punishment of wearing it in class?what will school do? what will court do? They just tell girl,  what you did is mistake?
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:22
double post


Edited by Styrbiorn - 28-Mar-2007 at 05:23
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:23
Originally posted by Mortaza

so tell me, what is punishment of wearing it in class?what will school do? what will court do? They just tell girl,  what you did is mistake?
 
 
My guess, send her or him out of the class room should she or he not take it off. Theoretically at least, I don't even know of any school that actually has this ban.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:27

ah great, If It is now law, You have a police state Which limit freedom of people without law.

If a rule is supported by court, It is a law.
 
what is punishment of breaking this innocent rule?
 
 school is not a swimming club, it is a state ruled organization. So, their rules are generally protected by court.
 
 
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:30
My guess, send her or him out of the class room should she or he not take it off. Theoretically at least, I don't even know of any school that actually has this ban.
 
so,punishment is stoping her education. If  they do this crime(veiling their own  face), they will not continue  their  education.
 
Taking  education right is realy a hard  punishment.. So is It normal, state punish people without law(If It is not a law)?
 
 
In both(law or not) way, this is injustice..
 
Or do you think, taking education right is a simple fee punishment?


Edited by Mortaza - 28-Mar-2007 at 05:32
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:39
Your singlemindedness is becoming extremely tedious. I am seriously wondering why I bother at all, as you obviously do not care to read other peoples arguments, or are doing your utmost best to misinterpret them.
 
so, one more time: IT IS NOT ABOUT LAW, CRIME OR PUNISHMENT
 
I do not know if 'school rules' and 'law' are the same in Turkey? They are certainly not here. Schools are also not state institutions. Rules supported by the court does not automatically mean it is law, and calling us a police state is extremely rich, considering the state of justice in Turkey.
 
It is really quite simple: Schools have rules. Those wishing to attend the schools must abide by the rules. If they do not, they are no longer welcome at that school.
 
So: If a girl wants to cover her face in school, she will have to find a school that does not mind. Public schools do mind. But others perhaps do not. An islam-based school, for instance. Now what is the effing problem?

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 05:42
"Taking away education" please....
 
Constantly pointing your tongue out to the teacher is also likely to get you sent out of classroom. Would you argue we have a police state that prevents people to air their tongues as well?
 
edit: don't know why I bother, I don't really care. In my opinion it's up to each school and each teacher. But I do think they should have the right to forbid it, just as they constantly forbid cap-wearing or chewing-gum-chewing.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 28-Mar-2007 at 05:49
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:09
Your singlemindedness is becoming extremely tedious. I am seriously wondering why I bother at all, as you obviously do not care to read other peoples arguments, or are doing your utmost best to misinterpret them.
 
I can say same too. They are rude(Infact their actions are rude acording to you), they dont have right to be rude at school. There are rules, so you should have follow these rules or not enter school.
 
Mentality is as simple as mine.
 
so, one more time: IT IS NOT ABOUT LAW, CRIME OR PUNISHMENT
 
so what do you call stoping education?  not punishment?
 
I do not know if 'school rules' and 'law' are the same in Turkey? They are certainly not here.
 
A lot of girl kick out school because of this "rule" and court supported this. I dont see this thing as simple rule.
 
and calling us a police state is extremely rich, considering the state of justice in Turkey.
 
If a state limit freedom without law, it is generally called as police state.
 
By the way, I did not say Turkey is better..  Infact Turkey is much worse. No need flame war.
 
It is really quite simple: Schools have rules. Those wishing to attend the schools must abide by the rules. If they do not, they are no longer welcome at that school.
 
quite simple minded..
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:18
"Taking away education" please....
 
Constantly pointing your tongue out to the teacher is also likely to get you sent out of classroom. Would you argue we have a police state that prevents people to air their tongues as well?
 
It is what happened at Turkey, why do you think It  would be different  at other states..
 
Some people  would be forced to choose to follow their religion or to educate themself. Be sure some will not go school because of this.
 
Their number is not much, but problem will  stay there..
 
It is simple follow rules or no education.
 
veiling own face harm noone, It does not  effect other students education.(like chewing-gum-chewing or pointing your tongue out to the teacher)
 
You are simply taking their education right If they follow their own(harmless) belief.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:22
I am single minded because my arguments are obvious and logical. You are single minded because if you acnowledge other peoples arguments, you would have to admit yourself wrong.
 
so what do you call stoping education?  not punishment?
 
Why would education be stopped? I see no reason for education to be stopped. I never suggested the stopping of education. You automatically, falsely, assumed that that would be the case.
 
See, you do not read. And you do avoid all the questions asked.
 
Answer please:
Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
 


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Mar-2007 at 06:23

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
erkut View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Persona non Grata

Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: T.R.N.C.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 965
  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:26
İ am keep saying thats brainwashing. Little girls does not viel their faces with their own wish!
Their families should be punished.
Childrens shold not be allowed to wear hijap in anywhere(not just in school).
When they become adults they could do what ever they want.
But its harmfull for their psychology in that ages. Their families start to control them in that ages and they destroy her freewill and personality. Then when she grows up she married with somebody her father wanted.
And then her husband continuos to controls her like a slave.
 
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:29
I think you are right, erkut. But unfortunately, in a free country, we cannot forbid parents to make their daughters wear them. You would need to prohibit them for everyone, including those who wear it out of choice, which is against the right for free religion.
 
And if you would set a minimum age, it would not solve the problem for long: parents would just force their daughters to wear it a little later...
 
A state can only prohibit serious harm for being done, such as abuse, and I do not think it easy to prove the Hijab causes harm... It is a fairly subjective standard of harm... ( and besides, imagine the riots you would have if it was attempted)


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Mar-2007 at 06:32

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 06:38
Why would education be stopped?
 
how do you stop these girls, If they use veil?
 
You automatically, falsely, assumed that that would be the case.
 
Not automatically, It is what happened at (just different ban.)Turkey. A lot girls stoped(or forced to  stop) their education. I dont see why It should be different at other countries.
 
Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
 
Because It is state school(please stop to see school as a simple club.) what If same school say, come to school naked? will you call it as school right?
 
Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
 
dont you find, It is also rude to kick a girl because she hide her face(Maybe, she is ugly huh? is reason so much important).. Which one is more rude? I think second one is more rude.. Dont let rudeness at school. 
 
I should also say, I find it rude to limit others religion because you find it rude.
 
And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
Most probably she would do it(Until ban enlarge private schools.)
 
But why should she do? are schools only non-muslims?
 
It is weird we  see it so much different. I can accept ban of private schools, but not public schools.  Public schools are for everyone, not only people who find veiling rude.
 
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:02
There is a simple solution to this problem. Get the muslim schools to ban the niqab in schools first, then the public schools can say "Hey, were just following their example". As Erkut says, there really isn't any reason why a school girl should be wearing Niqab.

Actually now I think about it, the muslim school in my city enforces a uniform code (which includes hijab for girls) so you probably wouldn't be allowed to wear a Niqab (I don't think anyone has tried).

Originally posted by Styrbion

This is interesting, because I find that having inflexible laws in an ever-changing society makes little sense.

The laws aren't actually static. Although some people pretend that they are. Its just that the government don't get to decide, instead this is in the hands of independent judges and scholars of law. So many times have governments tried to push something through and been opposed by righteous judges (who usually hold the favour & trust of the masses).
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:05
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Answer please:
  1. Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
  2. Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
  3. And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
 
 
Some of the dumbest and fascist set of questions i have seen so far:
 
1. New school rules: all boys and girls must shower together, and have lunch naked in school hall.(Hypothetically) it wouldn't happen because schools would have to follow guidelines. Who draws out those guidelines, well it won't be the school. Work it out.
 
2.Here quite frankly you need to get of ur high horse and stop insulting other people's cultures. It is laughable how u fail to see ur own rudeness, yet are debating how something seems rude to you.CryCryCry
 
3.All the lip service to Rosa Park, crying for the state of muslim women's affair across the other half of the planet goes out of the window with this comment, I can just imagine no blacks/dogs/niqabs. What else is the meaning of segregation?
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:06
İ am keep saying thats brainwashing. Little girls does not viel their faces with their own wish!
 
I ignored it because It would begin a new discussio(and we have already a boring one.)
 
I think you are brainwashed.(I hope you see point.)
 
I dont see any difference between a totally naked or totally clothed person. Infact, I find it stupid to believe a naked person is more free than a clothed person..
 
I dont believe veiling is bad.. It is just different.
 
Their families should be punished.
 
Your family should be punished, because they brainwashed you.
 
Childrens shold not be allowed to wear hijap in anywhere(not just in school).
 
You should not be allowed to walk when you are atheist..
 
When they become adults they could do what ever they want.
 
Unrelated.. All childs should be clothed.. When they become adult, they choose to show part of their bodies. We should not force them to show their body when they are child.
 
But its harmfull for their psychology in that ages.
 
so you think. Most probably, you think like this, because you are brainwashed that you believe some cloths can be harmful. If a pant dont harm them so veil wont..
 
Their families start to control them in that ages and they destroy her freewill and personality. Then when she grows up
 
same for you.You family controlled you, destroyed your freewill and personality.
 
Then when she grows up she married with somebody her father wanted.
And then her husband continuos to controls her like a slave.
 
a simple analys. Ignoring hundred year of culture, structure of society ad family, and accusing some cloth.. Funny.
 
 
I hope you saw irony at post..
 
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 07:21
Originally posted by Mortaza

Why would education be stopped?
 
how do you stop these girls, If they use veil?
 
 
Education is compulsory, they cannot stop, even if they would want to.
 
You automatically, falsely, assumed that that would be the case.
 
Not automatically, It is what happened at (just different ban.)Turkey. A lot girls stoped(or forced to  stop) their education. I dont see why It should be different at other countries.
 
 
Well, newsflash, not all countries are the same. Like I said, education is compulsory, so the government cannot force her to stop receiving it. That is against the law. This sais a lot more about Turkey than about other countries you know...
 
Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
 
Because It is state school(please stop to see school as a simple club.) what If same school say, come to school naked? will you call it as school right?
 
 
In my country, yes. A school erected under the philisophy of the Naturists (people who like to walk naked) can compell its students to come naked. As walking naked in the streets is not allowed, thye would have to undress upon arrival. But schools who do not support this philosphy can be expected not to accept it. As far as I know there are no Naturists schools, but there are Catholic schools, a whole range of Protestant schools, Muslim schools and Vedic schools. All of these schools receive money from the government. All of these schools can set rules on who to employ and who to teach. There are also 'public' schools, which do not promote any form of belief or philosopy. These could, in theory, ban all outings of religion, but in practice, they do generally accept things. I would not at all be surprised however, if they would draw the line at covering faces.
 
On the other hand, school rules cannot break the law. A protestant christian school had to change its books, because the old books claimed homosexuals were lesser humans. That is discrimination and not allowed. But a school like that could ban openly homosexual teachers from working there.

That is freedom of eduaction. We have it. You apparently dont.
 
Why would we allow this kind of rudeness in schools when we do not allow other kinds of rudeness?
 
dont you find, It is also rude to kick a girl because she hide her face(Maybe, she is ugly huh? is reason so much important).. Which one is more rude? I think second one is more rude.. Dont let rudeness at school. 
 
I should also say, I find it rude to limit others religion because you find it rude.
 
 
It does not limit religion. It just limits a small groups deviant ideas on religion. Limiting religion would mean banning all sorts of religious outings, like crosses, stars, turbans. They are not banned. It is banned to cover your face when the theacher is trying to tell you something.
 
And if she needs to wear the thing, why can she not go to a school that does allow her to wear face covering veils, like a muslim-school?
 
Most probably she would do it(Until ban enlarge private schools.)
 
But why should she do? are schools only non-muslims?
 
It is weird we  see it so much different. I can accept ban of private schools, but not public schools.  Public schools are for everyone, not only people who find veiling rude.
 
Well, like I said, it is especially public schools who should be able to ban people: if you cannot adhere to the common rules, you must find yourself a private school with the right to determine for themselves.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Mar-2007 at 07:23

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.516 seconds.