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Omar al Hashim
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Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by S&D
Etnically superior? That sort of goes against what the West is about, atleast in the US. We give alot of rights to minorities. And since when does a relgion have to do with ethnicity? Our public systems have nothing to do with "Ethnic Superiority". I can't believe thats your arguement for something you don't agree with. |
Not the US, Europe. The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches), Americans don't.
Originally posted by S&D
Nope, he was right, America belongs to Americans. We accept others to come into our nation, to become apart of us, to add to our culture, but not to change our laws and country to make it one they came from. Religions don't belong in secular buildings, so the head scarf doesn't either. |
Americans = The sum of all migrants to America. And there was no niqab ban before now, why should there be after now?
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 22-Mar-2007 at 18:54
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:21 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Americans = The sum of all migrants to America. And there was no niqab ban before now, why should there be after now?
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Well said! Why ban them now?
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:32 |
Americans = The sum of all migrants to America. And there was no niqab ban before now, why should there be after now? |
I don't recall ever seeing anyone wearing a veil in school. I see the head scarf, but a veil is going to far. It serves no purpose at all and will only cause more disruption through discrimnation then anything else. There are no Pros for it, just cons.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:38 |
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy
Americans = The sum of all migrants to America. And there was no niqab ban before now, why should there be after now? | I don't recall ever seeing anyone wearing a veil in school. I see the head scarf, but a veil is going to far. It serves no purpose at all and will only cause more disruption through discrimnation then anything else. There are no Pros for it, just cons.
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Nonsense. There wa a girl at my highschool who wore a veil. I thought nothing of it. I was proud that nobody, as far as I know, criticized her for wearing it.
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:45 |
I've seen people get picked on for shirts they wore, it's ridiculous what people will tease about. You may be one case, but for something this alien to culture, I positive there will be multiple occasions of discrimination in school.
There's still no pros or cons for it. Didn't someone in this thread even say it isn't a requirement of Islam?
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Ovidius
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:57 |
Are you therefore, saying that a Civic faith is more important than a religious faith. Being Secular is more important than being Religious.
We need to protect people from Religions basically.
There are many things alien to culture that go on in schools, besides religion and veils.
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Ovidius
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 19:58 |
Are you therefore, saying that a Civic faith is more important than a religious faith. Being Secular is more important than being Religious.
We need to protect people from Religions basically.
There are many things alien to culture that go on in schools, besides religion and veils.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 20:08 |
Are you therefore, saying that a Civic faith is more important than a religious faith. Being Secular is more important than being Religious. |
Didn't say anything was more important, just that personal beliefs don't always belong in the public system ment to educate.
We need to protect people from Religions basically. |
Why would we want to do that, your being pretty extreme.
There are many things alien to culture that go on in schools, besides religion and veils. |
Like what? So far I've seen types of cloths and hair styles banned because they were to extreme, and thats with famliar cultures.
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Ovidius
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 20:36 |
I agree with the rationale that Religion has no place in schools, because of schools being multifaith. I don't disagree that things like prayers in assemblies and other such religious activities are perhaps misplaced in a school. But I seriously believe this shouldn't extend to children hiding their faith.
The issue of Veils vs things like Hair styles I believe can be rationalised based on intent. If kids are using hair style as a form of dissent, then surely those hair styles should be banned, compared to veils which are only ever worn as a representation of faith.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 20:47 |
Does a veil promote education at all?
There is no point for it in school. All it will do is cause distraction. Many teachers here even believe it takes away the ability to really communicate with the child as facial expressions are apart of communication.
It's funny that we are discussing this, just now CNN had a debate on it.
So I brought up what up a question before, is this really a requirement of Islam, that women must hide their faces? Or is this a cultural thing?
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Aydin
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 21:58 |
I say lets take it one step further and liberate these females by allowing them to take off the veils too.
More moves such as these should be made to protect the Western identity.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 00:33 |
Originally posted by S&D
I've seen people get picked on for shirts they wore, it's ridiculous what people will tease about. You may be one case, but for something this alien to culture, I positive there will be multiple occasions of discrimination in school. |
Thats not the laws problem.
And could everyone stop using veil. Its confusing and I think different people are using the same word for different things. The proper terminology is Hijab for the head scarf and Niqab for the face covering as well.
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Alparslan
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 02:21 |
I support the ban on face veil. This is not related with Islam and being a Muslim.
Face veil is nothing more than a primitive middle ages Middle Eastern tradition. So it can not be represented as "I should wear face veil because I am a Muslim".
As being a Muslim I am strongly opposing to those who combine face veil, head scarf with Islam. Islam can not be explained or understood with a piece of fabric.
Just look at inside of your head not head scarf. Focus on smile not face veil. Do not hot up by seeing a hair of a woman. If you can not control yourself it means that your self-control is not strong enough to be a good Muslim. To control yourself you do not have the right to force women to live as canned food.
Every years millions of animals are sacrificed for pilgrime in Macca. But we are killing millions of animals and throw away. Is this worship? Is this Islam? No! This is a clear massacre. Islam did not say you just kill the animals. Islam says help to the poor people and worry about them. Give the meats to the poors....
Exactly the same situation with face veil. You are misinterpreting Islam and you are destroying it. If Saudis are too much worry about Islam so they can start to make an organization in Macca to send these millions of tons of meats to the poor people of the world. They have money for this but if you focus too much on fabrics on head you may forget what is inside of the head.
The face veil is a matter of freedom not religion. Nobody and any kind of "belief" can obscure the wonderful smiles of small children, young girls.
Edited by Alparslan - 23-Mar-2007 at 02:31
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 06:07 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Not the US, Europe. The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches), Americans don't.
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Now that is not very kind, Omar. I do not consider myself ethically superior. I just prefer a face to talk to. With facial expressions and such. Not a piece of fabric.
S&D. I disagree with you on the religions on schools things. People are allowed to show their religion, if they want to. Wearing crosses, stars, skullcaps, turbans and Hijans are fine by me. But wearing a niquab does not express religion, it expresses a disregard for the people around you.
Edited by Aelfgifu - 23-Mar-2007 at 06:14
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 06:51 |
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Zagros
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 06:57 |
Even though I am in support of the ban, how the HELL does it protect western identity? Are face veils an infectious disease that will spread to other muslims as well as non-muslims? What a ridiculous statement Aidin.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 08:20 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Not the US, Europe. The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches) |
Actually we are, but we're born that way so it's not really our fault.
As for the face veil issue in schools, I'm a firm believer in school uniforms (not practiced in this country) so it's not hard to make up my mind. Make everyone wear the same and you eliminate issues relating to clothes and fashion, religion, identity or whatever. The school is an institution for learning, not a catwalk to show off fashion or a temple where you demonstrate how religious you are.
Edited by Reginmund - 23-Mar-2007 at 08:21
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Mortaza
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 08:43 |
I'm talking about more rights that put them above equality. Why? Because of a horrible past and a dark time in history. Plus there are still racist individuals.
above?You let them to live their own culture a bit.above?
But what your discussing has more to do with our laws then individual thoughts. And their my friend is why I question your idea of Ethinic Superiority. Our laws don't have them for the majority at all.
Your ethinic superiority is that. You see your own(personal) culture better and you tolerate other cultures.
Infact, you are only giving a bit right, that they already should own.
America belongs to Americans. We accept others to come into our nation, to become apart of us, to add to our culture, but not to change our laws and country to make it one they came from. Religions don't belong in secular buildings, so the head scarf doesn't either.
How good are you. It is good you permit them to live too..
Good points, Search. America is, well, for Americans. We have our traditions, our culture, and our way of life, and when people come over here to make their way in the world, they ought to have to adapt around the pre-existing culture;
why? are you better than them? do your culture better than their culture? do you own USA more than them? why should they follow your culture?
why not, all americans are not like native americans?
Not the US, Europe. The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches), Americans don't.
americans are a little different. They are more open minded to others.(Maybe, having too much different ethics helped them much.) But I am not talking about nations but people...
They love themself much because they let others to live their own culture a bit.
There's still no pros or cons for it. Didn't someone in this thread even say it isn't a requirement of Islam?
No, Islam dont require it, but It is not important what islam want or not. Important thing is what these people want.
I should also say, I dont see much difference to hide face or other part of body. It is not bad, but only different. It would be better,, If people stop to accept this thing, as a bad habit.(Cultural superiority?)
Alparsan,pls stop to impose your understanding of islam to us.
I should also add, nobody have right to force someone to show part of her body.(Face, leg or asses, scienfically, none of these are more holy than others.)
I think people stop to impose their ideas to others. Noone forced you to show part of your body. So dont force others for this.
niquab is nor evil not bad. It is just different. So It does not need tolerance but acceptance.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 08:49 |
As for the face veil issue in schools, I'm a firm believer in school uniforms (not practiced in this country) so it's not hard to make up my mind. Make everyone wear the same and you eliminate issues relating to clothes and fashion, religion, identity or whatever.
Good idea, let all people use veil So We will also eliminate issues relating to colour, face and whatever..
I am sure, It is difficult for a child to accept difference than older people.. It is a know fact, older people are more ready for new ideas, cultures and people. arent they?
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Lotus
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 09:45 |
Very good points about the uniforms in schools, but I want to develop an idea further...
When schools enforce uniforms, they're not discriminating against people; they're merely setting a code of what is acceptable dress, and what is not. It is respectful to show up to school well-dressed, as opposed to showing up in ratty jeans and a t-shirt. The uniform shows that you respect the institution enough to abide by it's rules. It's not discrimination. Just like in the workforce, you are expected to wear a shirt and tie; it's not discriminating against sloppy-dressers, it's instilling an idea of respect, standards, and community in a group that dress alike and work towards a common goal.
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Well o.k. its not discrimination as such, the point I was trying to make was wearing a school uniform treats everybody the same, regardless of race or religion.
If someone wants to display their Muslim upbringing then isnt wearing the normal school uniform with the Hijab enough?
The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches), Americans don't.
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That seems a little harsh, what speech did you have in mind Omar?
Edited by Lotus - 23-Mar-2007 at 09:48
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