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Schools allowed to ban face veils

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 09:34
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Malizali, I am also not interested in continuing this with you, as your only arguments are accusing people with different opinions of being facist. If it bothers you so much that we do things differently, feel free to sue the Dutch state for being segregative. Fat chance.
 
That's no problem, others will be able to make their own minds up about the opinions and arguments. Especially on what is rude or not.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:22
Originally posted by Mortaza

Since time memorial.
 
Since time memorial time, you did not met fully clothed people(I am not talking eye contact. I am sure eye contact is not obligatory at schools and I am sure you met a lot people who evade eye contact.) Fully clothed people are new at Europea.
 
do you find these action rude because of these people? or do you find these people rude because of this action..
 
I am sure noone will find a girl rude, If she have clothed because of sun light. So now, these girls clothed because of their religion, why do you find this rude?
 
 
 
Read the post in its context, you misunderstood basicly everything I said.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 10:39
@ malizai
Saying Aelfigifu's doesn't honor your intelligence and your sense of what history is. This type of insult is the symptom of an "infantil desease" common among far-leftists. I wish you to meet a real fascist to experience how wrong you are

@Aelfigifu
it is true that you are a dirty fascist but it doesn't matter because Dutch female fascist are really sexy (see Verhoven's Black Book). Yummy!

What most people seem to forget is that this problem needs to set in its environment. I'm not sure the question's exactly the same in a society used to various and well defined communities and religion like the US and a country used to centralization and strong laicity as France. It is ultimately a political decision so it to be understood as such.

Some points have not been addressed here:
1) Some population feel strongly about "aliens" coming in their country. It is maybe a good idea not to shock them more than necessary by publicly displaing strong muslim faith. Recently in England the Jack Straw incident proved that many felt strongly against the veil and that violence could happen.
2) Does the state (or any other body such as the education board) has any right to interfer in family matters when the life of the child is not directly under threat?
3) It is often forgotten that education is generally a public good. If one provides a service one can set the rules for it. If you aren't happy with the rules applied in your school, vote for the party who says it will change these rules.

Finally, I think there is no real reason to be strinctly in favour or against the veil. Both sides have very valuable arguments. Once more it is a political decision that is linked to the problem of intergration encontered by muslim communities in Europe. What ever decision is taken is has to be backed by a larger policy. I have no problem for a state to prevent girls to wear a veil at school if it makes sure that you don't get discriminated against for jobs for instance if your name id Fatima hijab or not. On the other hand, no problem with veils at school if you make sure that the girls have a possibility to escape if the veil goes along with extrem phallocracy and religious fanatism.

Personally, I'd be against the veil because it is a symbol of fanatism and phalocracy (just a symbol but still). And because, I'd rather not spy in the famillies but make sure the job markets remains perfectly open to these women.

Ok, now to stupid arguments, but I really wnated to give them:
mosque
We all agree that catholicism was very backward before say the 1970s. How do you think the progressist states ruled them back? By asking nicely and respecting the feeling of everyone?
Besides when I'm going to a mosque I take off my shoes? There's no reason why they ask me to do so, their cultural code ask everybody to do so, equally so why not. Every women going to Pakistan or Arabia Saudi has to put on a veil and nobody complains. Why is it different in western school?
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 12:47
Although i intended my last post to be just that, i will say in respect to Aelfigifu. That there is a difference in discussing an illness and proclaiming someone ill.
 
I think the choice of the veil should be left to the individual unless there are side-effects. Say in a science lab where it may be unsafe to have a loose face covering, similar to untied long hair. In which case the choice would be limited to opting out, or remedying the cause of concern. Another scenario that comes to mind is a policewoman at ur door. It will not serve to instill confidence or assurance in the person opening the door to her, who could potentially be a victim, etc. Whereever a facial presentation is essential to the Job a person not wishing to part with the veil should make use of their common sense and not apply. Also note that the veil which is popularly identified as Islamic, is in origin a pre-islamic custom and has a cultural dimension too. So yes the veil would be of religious importance to most women that wear it,  but not always so.
 
As to wanting to ban something because of a personal dis-likeness/displeasure, and/or on the basis of cultural differences is IMO a fascist imposition. This wouldn't necessarily make the country a fascist state, like water that will only taste bitter when there is enough salt in it.
 
BTW i never considered myself leftist nor adhere to a particular strand of leftist ideology, having said that i do have a tendency to agree with a lot of leftist ideas. Does listening to a lot of psytrance make me a leftist.

 


Edited by malizai_ - 28-Mar-2007 at 13:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 17:44
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
Why should a school not have the right to set its own rules within its own walls?
 
Because It is state school(please stop to see school as a simple club.) what If same school say, come to school naked? will you call it as school right?  
 
..while i have no wish to get involved directly in this 'debate', i think you should know Mortaza that 'state school' in England does not mean it is 'totally' run by central government, or somehow 'dictated' to by some 'totalitarian' authority..(we have moved on from the Victorian era)...there are various rules (not laws) that do govern the practice of running a state school but the schools are often free to determine and interpret such guidelines according to the differing environments in which they perform...there are laws which outline the 'provision of education' but like i said, after that, schools can and do maintain a relatively independent hand in how the school is run....school uniforms for example, schools can, and do, introduce, re-introduce or refrain from having uniforms...they can choose... (a bit like the veil issue really)
 
..in many ways, these places of education indeed could be considered 'a club', pupils are encouraged to join with idea of a 'school community' and  recognise that they are representative of the 'club' in which they learn and belong (one of the reasons for having uniforms)...by golly, all schools even have 'clubs' within the 'big club'...chess, football, computer, gaming, etc clubs....the notion that pupils who go to a particular school are 'members' is promoted....
 
..in addition, schools can, and do, balance the needs of the whole school according to what is deemed 'a positive learning environment'...rules can be changed, scrapped, introduced with a relatively free hand just so long as the 'educational' aspect is not affected....in this case, the school who disallowed the girl from wearing the veil felt this quite accutely...such schools may well have input from a (mostly unpaid) set of 'governors' who frequently are upstanding members of the local community and are guided and motivated by the provision of quality education in their respective area..in addition, many parents take an active role in the 'running' of schools and are regularly consulted with regards to school managment issues..parents will often highlight both troublesome and positive aspects of a school because, being a parent of a schoolchild, gives them an important and vital insight into how the school is performing....
 
...to use your rather simple 'example', if indeed a school did propose to request its pupils to turn up naked, it would be laughed at and discarded before the people in question probably had time to answer some very pertinant questions from the police..my point is, your example is ridiculous in the extreme, but the school could have requested this without outside 'permission'..it has nothing to do with law, a police state (use of which i thinks demonstrates a very loose grip on your argument) and any other similar phrases.....
 
..a school in the town where i used to live recently introduced a voluntary 'drug-testing' programme for pupils, namely because the headmaster recognised that there was a serious drug-taking problem affecting the 'positive learning environment'..there were some howls of protest from  some 'rights' campaigners and even from some local politicians, but the core result, was that the programme was recognised and supported by the vast majority of parents and, AND, a substantial number of the pupils themselves!!!!..the outcome..said programme was introduced, proved successful and the schools 'learning environment' was greatly improved...all of this happend without no, thats NO 'law instruction' from central or even local government....
 
..you should note Mortaza, that 'common sense' is the most valuable tool that such institutions are allowed to use, and they do so frequently....you clearly have no idea how schools function in the UK and have simply picked your 'veil' story as an 'example' of perceived bad practice in a country you are unfamiliar with, no great personal crime there, but to throw in 'religion' bashing as a reason for what has happened without no valid and informed reasoning is highly suspect, deeply offensive, and frankly quite disturbing....which is, i fear, why you are on the end of some very serious criticism against your postings...
 
..and to pre-empt a possible reply, i am not sugesting that wearing a 'veil' is the same as drug taking, is that clear?? i used the example to illustrate your lack of knowledge on the curent UK education system...get that right, and then come back to your original premise...you might get somewhere then...
 
..did i say i did not wish to get directly involved in this debate?!!Confused
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 20:59

I think a school should be able to set it's dress code, and on top of that base it on the societies' culture and norms. If someone does like what the people living in a nation THEY had already established, there are hundreds of other countries in this world they can choose from. And if that facist, fine, because all the other countries adhere to their cultural norms too.

So who should be alienated in having the norms changed? This issue mostly involves schools, schools are known for being a very social place. The West puts emphasis on face to face interaction, and see it impolite to hide your face from each other. Should the people who made the choice to come here set the established rules in school? Or should the people who have lived and made the said country what it is today set the rules of their own lands?
 
And is it not facism is the people coming to their new country refuses to integrate to their new country? I mean, facism is all about putting your nation above everything else. If your going to make the connection that people want their country to set the rules as Facism, what about people who want to come to the new country to set new rules that didn't exist and are willing to make a fight over it. Isn't that saying that their culture is more worthy that they don't have to follow the rules? Because both arguements are exactly the same, only argueing the opposite.
 
I've also been taught that going into someone else home, you follow the rules that are set. Atleast I believe thats a rule followed in the West.
 
@Aelfigifu
it is true that you are a dirty fascist but it doesn't matter because Dutch female fascist are really sexy (see Verhoven's Black Book). Yummy!
lol You have a strange way on hitting on women. I think you would manage to confuse the girl in not knowing whether that was a compliment or something to smack you over!LOL I'm joking around.
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  Quote T. Ape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 21:35
So here is the question I pose to all of you who said that hijabs should not be worn in Western schools: Is it all right for the Iranians to require a hijab?
 
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 23:03
They do, and Western people are shown wearing them without going into a public setting. Our reporters have to wear them, and they forced that captive British Sailor to wear one he she didn't even go there on her free will.
I believe they should be forced to no. Why? Because it's not apart of my culture really. But in their culture it's alright, so let them.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 04:22
there are various rules (not laws) that do govern the practice of running a state school
 
So I see, indirectly control. You can give some freedom to a slave too, but still he is under your control with rules(So state can stop this ban.). I accept schools have more freedom than Turkey, but still It looks like they are indirectly controled by state..
 
..in many ways, these places of education indeed could be considered 'a club', pupils are encouraged to join with idea of a 'school community' and  recognise that they are representative of the 'club' in which they learn and belong (one of the reasons for having uniforms)...by golly, all schools even have 'clubs' within the 'big club'...chess, football, computer, gaming, etc clubs....the notion that pupils who go to a particular school are 'members' is promoted....
 
to enter a club is valunterily. schools is not.It is a necessary to live. do you call hospitals and courts as clubs too?
 
A club have right to accept or refuse any members, a school should have not.
 
what If this club one  day decide, their club is only for men?
 
even a state is club.. citizens are encouraged to join with idea of a 'state community' and  recognise that they are representative of the 'state' in which they live and belong (one of the reasons for having citizenship)...by golly, all states even have 'clubs' within the 'big club'...chess, football, computer, gaming, etc clubs....the notion that citizen who live in state are 'members' is promoted....
 
so one day this club may decide, jews are no more accepted to club, and they should leave.
 
Okey, That is a little stupid, but why dont enlarge meaning of club more and more.
 
in addition, many parents take an active role in the 'running' of schools and are regularly consulted with regards to school managment issues..parents will often highlight both troublesome and positive aspects of a school because, being a parent of a schoolchild, gives them an important and vital insight into how the school is performing....
 
so, do this parents can put some rules like all childs should use a red noise and talk japan langauge? still, I dont see how a veil can effect education at all. It is a self-harming issue.(If It is harming someone.)
 
...to use your rather simple 'example', if indeed a school did propose to request its pupils to turn up naked, it would be laughed at and discarded before the people in question probably had time to answer some very pertinant questions from the police..my point is, your example is ridiculous in the extreme, but the school could have requested this without outside 'permission'..it has nothing to do with law, a police state (use of which i thinks demonstrates a very loose grip on your argument) and any other similar phrases.....
 
why? what is the difference between taking one cloth or two or three or all cloths. ethic? so you can force people become partly naked but not totally naked?
 
I called it police state(Maybe,I exaggerated, a little, but arent you exaggerate veil a little too? It is just a cloth harmless to you and necessary for them.) because It obligatorypeople to attend education, and they should attend schools with showing some part of your body(They dont want to show.)
 
 It is state job to protect freedom of their  people..(All people)
 
..a school in the town where i used to live recently introduced a voluntary 'drug-testing' programme for pupils, namely because the headmaster recognised that there was a serious drug-taking problem affecting the 'positive learning environment'
 
tell me how veil effect positive learning environment? not girl herself.
 
..did i say i did not wish to get directly involved in this debate?!!Confused
 
You did, but well, I dont want to continue this debate too..(Just cannot resist.)
 
3) It is often forgotten that education is generally a public good. If one provides a service one can set the rules for it. If you aren't happy with the rules applied in your school, vote for the party who says it will change these rules.

Hospital is public good too.. So what If majority decide, people who use veil(not only closing their face.) should not benefit from this public good..  Should they die, until a party help(If this ever happen.) them?

is this somethink like democratic fasism?(Sorry, If word agitiated you, and no I am not leftist too. Infact too far from them.)
Public good are for everyone even for criminals......(Not only major culture.)
 
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 04:27
I've also been taught that going into someone else home, you follow the rules that are set. Atleast I believe thats a rule followed in the West.
 
Your ancestor were european, and you call america as your home. They are not also american like you, and I think they have right to call america as their home.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 04:45
Originally posted by Maharbbal


We all agree that catholicism was very backward before say the 1970s. How do you think the progressist states ruled them back? By asking nicely and respecting the feeling of everyone?

Well yes, that is the whole point of secularism. When they tried to stop the catholics from doing things it caused big wars.

Every women going to Pakistan or Arabia Saudi has to put on a veil and nobody complains. Why is it different in western school?

Why is it everyone repeatably makes this mistake. Pakistani women do not wear hijab. In fact most have a very anti-hijab attitude. If a western women wears a hijab in Pakistan she is going to look very out of place. In Saudi Arabia, western women do not have to wear hijab either.

And I don't think Europe should compare itself to Pakistan until it allows minority groups to do anything, and allows any number immigrants from anywhere to reside in its countries with all the rights of a local (which in Pakistan is practically none). Pakistan may be poor, and insecure, but it enacts as a matter of principle the sort of multicultural acceptance that most Europeans can't even dream about.
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 09:57
Just a couple of comments that I think needs to be made.
 
In many cultures, including my own, its not considered polite to hide your face when talking to someone. I dont know if I would call it rude in this particular case, as I dont see a face hidden behind a veil as a result of a free choice of that person - more of that later in the post.
 
As far as education and schools concerns, a teacher must be able to have eyecontact and to see the facial expression of students to perform the best teaching.
What good is any teaching, if the teacher cannot observe the impact of his words or explanations. He might as well be addressing a wall - and the students might as well be listening to a tape recorder.
Not the best conditions for a successful education.
 
I strongly suppport individual freedom - to say, do or wear anything anyone chose to. Freedom of specch and expression - also in clothing.
 
BUT - the sad thing is, the facial veil is NOT an expression of personal freedom, nor is it (as mentioned numerous times here) religious related.
Its pre-Islam, founded in the tribal societies in the middle east 2- or 3.000 years ago, to protect a mans (father or husband) property, hiding the beauty of his women, that no other man should be aroused by her beauty or tempted to want her in one way or the other.
It has become a tradition like many other things many people (including muslims) think is related to religion - ie. the division of men/women in the mosques, honour killings, genitial mutilation etc. etc. All these traditions have only one purpose - to serve the interest of men, to keep and protect their property, the women.
The facial veil was never meant to serve the freedom of women - it still isnt.
The hijab - although I find it beautiful in many cases - is a similar tradition.
 
In conclusion, as I see it - men who are supporting these traditions can only be seen as protecting their OWN interests - by constantly surpressing the freedom of their women - under the cover of ancient traditions.
 
~ Northman
 
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 10:16
Your ancestor were european, and you call america as your home. They are not also american like you, and I think they have right to call america as their home.
Build a time machine so I can go back a couple hundred years ago and I'll see about changing my ancestors minds. What do you want me to do about my ancestors? I can't change there minds, I live in the present and not in the past. I acknowledge them, but when they did wrong which I have no evidence for except them being European and being here, then my sympathy is with the natives.
So what I said still stands. I'm not going to let people disrespect my home just because my ancestors may have been that way. I, myself, respect others when I go into their homes, and I'd do the same going to someone's country.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 11:05
I think an intelligent politician should come up with this idea: we forbid girls from wearing hijabs in class, but boy are free to do it!
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:00
So what I said still stands. I'm not going to let people disrespect my home just because my ancestors may have been that way. I, myself, respect others when I go into their homes, and I'd do the same going to someone's country.
 
You totally missunderstood me. what I am trying to say is, USA is their home too. So This is my home, you are guess thing dont work. Both your ancestors are not american, both of them came USA later. So you are not different.
 
 
I think an intelligent politician should come up with this idea: we forbid girls from wearing hijabs in class, but boy are free to do it!
 
Haha, be sure you will meet with some boys who use veil.(For protests)
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:08
You totally missunderstood me. what I am trying to say is, USA is their home too. So This is my home, you are guess thing dont work. Both your ancestors are not american, both of them came USA later. So you are not different.
And that millions who live here have established the countries culture and those who came became apart of it. It's called intregration, and the thousands that came before had no problem accepting the new culture. Infact, thats how it usually is all over the world.
I think an intelligent politician should come up with this idea: we forbid girls from wearing hijabs in class, but boy are free to do it!
lol I think thats a good way for a politician to be labeled a sexist.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 17:51
It gets worse!!!
This woman is in America and must go by our customs and laws and she does not like it then she should reconsider living in the good ole USA. She has the right to pratice her religion but this this is going too far and I hope she loses big time.


Muslim Woman Sues Judge Over Veil
The lawsuit says that...others have either come before Paruk or will come before him. 'Thus, future harm is imminent.'" But in light of stories like this, I wonder who it is who is more likely to be harmed in the future. This kind of story calls for the response of General Sir Charles James Napier: you have your custom, and we have ours. Your custom is to cover your face before men who are not your relatives. Our custom is that those who testify in court do so with faces visible, in part so that the judge and others can determine their truthfulness. If you insist on following your custom, we will also follow ours, and dismiss your case.

By Jeff Karoub for The Associated Press, with thanks to all who sent this in:

DETROIT -- A Muslim woman whose small-claims court case was dismissed after she refused to remove her veil sued the judge Wednesday, saying her religious and civil rights were violated.
Ginnnah Muhammad, 42, of Detroit, says in the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Detroit that Judge Paul Paruk's request to remove her veil -- and his decision to dismiss her case when she didn't -- was unconstitutional based on her First Amendment right to practice her religion.

The claim against Paruk also cites a federal civil rights law in alleging that Muhammad was denied access to the courts because of her religion.

Muhammad wore a niqab -- a scarf and veil that covers her head and face, leaving only the eyes visible -- during the October hearing in Hamtramck, a city surrounded by Detroit.

She was contesting a $2,750 charge from a rental-car company to repair a vehicle that she said thieves had broken into.

Paruk told her he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave her a choice: take off the veil while testifying or have the case dismissed. She kept it on.

Enterprise Rent-A-Car Co. then filed a claim seeking a judgment of $2,000 against Muhammad....

Muhammad's attorney, Nabih Ayad, said that she unsuccessfully sought to get a different judge to hear the case and that she and her client plan to ask him to remove himself from the case....

Metropolitan Detroit has one of the country's largest Muslim and Arab populations. The lawsuit says that because of that, others have either come before Paruk or will come before him. "Thus, future harm is imminent."

"You should be able to be who you are as long as you're not a criminal or hurting other people," said Muhammad, who converted to Islam when she was 10 and runs an aromatherapy business in suburban Detroit. "I want to make sure everyone across the board is able to practice their religion freely in a democratic society."

Muhammad said she would have removed her veil before a female judge.

"The way I believe in Islam is that a woman is very virtuous," she said. "We should be covered when we come out. This protects me as well as other people. I believe that God wants me that way."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/28/AR2007032801801.html?referrer=emailarticle&reload=true

Edited by eaglecap - 29-Mar-2007 at 17:53
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 21:26
He should have dismissed the case. Religion has no grounds in court anyways. Isn't that what we've fought for? You have your freedom of religion, but it doesn't belong in a court room.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 04:22
This woman is in America and must go by our customs and laws and she does not like it then she should reconsider living in the good ole USA. She has the right to pratice her religion but this this is going too far and I hope she loses big time.

customs? now that is a new step.
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Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Scotland
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Posts: 323
  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 04:46

 

       A line has to be drawn in the sand someplace. For should we all elect to disregard set rules, laws and dismiss what we don't like then anarchy would reign. 
      Which group of folks do you reckon will be the hardest hit should law of the jungle be imposed.         
                       


Edited by Scorpian - 30-Mar-2007 at 05:00
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