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Schools allowed to ban face veils

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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 07:43
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Well, I am defenately not supportive of a general ban on face veils. I just do think schools and companies have the right to make a policy on that...

I guess this means that women who want to wear that veil and work anyway might have to settle for telephone jobs... I can imagine a company not wanting them behind the counter. Sorry if that is offensive, but I would not appreciate being helped at the counter by a person whose face is covered. I find it impolite in the extreme.
 
And I do still wonder at the women who wear these veils and do a full time job anyway. As far as I know, the same branch of Islam that wants women to cover up like that is also the branch that is not too enhusiastic about women working anyway...


Why do you find it offensive? What is so impolite about it?

It doesn't particularly matter about branches of Islam, its freedom of religion. If they believe veils are important, so be it.

If you think schools and companies are allowed to ban it, what about homosexuals? Where does the line of discrimination stop? If Schools and Companies can discriminate freely, what is the point of anti-discrimination laws anyway?

On top of all this, why does it even matter. Why do people get so outraged about this. There are very few women wearing veils, they are not anyones life. If you are offended by a Muslim women at the counter, go to a different counter or a different store. What is worst about this, is trying to somehow put it into the 'interests' of the Muslims at the schools. They will of course be better of learning about the intolerance of society and learn more at school without a veil, than if they were just left alone to wear a veil and disrupt no one.

Its constantly back to the idea of creating a normative society, based on central principles of what society should be like.
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 07:52
If they believe veils are important, so be it.
 
Well said,veil is not islamic(acording to me.), but I have no right  to interfere others job..
 
I should find discrimination at school is unacceptable. I dont care much about companies.
 
 
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 08:05
Originally posted by Ovidius


Why do you find it offensive? What is so impolite about it?
 
At least here it's simply very impolite not to show your face to the one you're speaking to and doing it makes people uneasy, which is probably a main reason to why veils are generally disliked. Guess the same goes for her?
 
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 08:18
At least here it's simply very impolite not to show your face to the one you're speaking to and doing it makes people uneasy, which is probably a main reason to why veils are generally disliked. Guess the same goes for her?
 
I think forcing some one to not wear something is more impolite.(Specially, when this wearing is related with religion)
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 08:29
Ovidius, you are ranting. If you cannot have a normal discussion about the subject without calling anyone who disagrees a racist, I have no interest in continuing this. I will not tolerate being implied a racist or islamophobic again!
 
Like Syrbiorn said, it it generally impolite here to hide your face. That is our culture. It has nothing to do with creating a 'normative' society. There is ample opportunity in our culture to express beliefs or personal preferences without being offensive to others.
 
Please stop comparing this to handicapped and homosexual people, it is completely invalid and very insulting. First because being handicapped or homosexual is not a choice, second because homosxuality in particular is something that is not in anybodies face, and thirdly because asking people to please not cover their faces when interacting with others has nothing to do with discrimination.
 
Discrimination is when people are judged on religion, sexuality, looks, race or background. This is not the case here. People are being judged on behaviour. Behaviour which is, once again, not inseperable from religion, as most muslims do not care about face veils and as Islam does not specifically support them.
 
And once again, I do not care what people wear in the streets, this is about specific situations.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 08:44
schools are more than specific situations.
 
 Infact, they are core of society building and changing actions and idea of people. So good weapon for asimilation.
 
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:04
How is it insulting to compare it to other forms of discrimination? Discrimination IS the problem here. People are treating a specific group of people differently, they are clearly singling Muslim Women out here. I see discrimnation as a single issue - Handicapped people, Homosexuals, women, relligion, race, nationality etc. That is why I bring them up, not to offend you and why is it insulting at all? You cannot discuss an issue without drawing up comparisons?

I have two issues that I'm trying to understand here. Where does the line stop with discrimination, if you make an exception based on veils, why not against other minority groups. You are distinguishing the groups based on what you call 'choice', by this you mean 'physical choice' Veiled women can take the veil off, and other groups cannot change. This i understand, except when you place the faith of the women into the picture - to which those women believe they physically cannot show themselves to Men. Now I think people should not be allowed to wear veils, except in matters of faith, that is all.

thirdly because asking people to please not cover their faces when interacting with others has nothing to do with discrimination.


No, it isn't. We still have freedom of assosciation. I don't think that in all areas of society, the veil as appropriate. A police officer for instance. However, in most day to day jobs, there is no reason why the Veil is a bad thing. Not to mention the fact that most women who wear the veil don't work. The discrimination is not the personal choices of people, it is the direct creation of rules within companies/schools to stop people from wearing something that is seen as part of the religion. This is an institutional level of discrimination, not a personal choice as you are talking about. Like I said, based on your own choices, you do not have to deal with veiled women, surely?

I am not implying you are racist or an Islamophobe or any such thing. I study difference between societies. This sort of attitude interests me intensely. I'm rather interested in where you are coming from. So the ohter thing I want to know about is why it offends you? So you find the non showing of a face to be impolite? Why? Do you see it as a cultural thing or a personal thing?

I don't understand how you can seperate this from religion. By placing what you and others understand about the Islamic faith, and not just creating normative behaiviour, you are even creating an Islamic normal. If someone believes something is part of their faith, just with crucifixes, then its part of their faith. Cracking down on those articles is discriminatory.

Its hard enough for Muslims anyway. In Britain Muslims are more likely to be unemployed than White people, in a similar fashion to black people. Now this is obviously not ALL to do with discrimination, but I think it is extremely closely linked. By giving companies another way of deciding on which groups of people they employ, you give them ANOTHER loophole.

What I hate msot about this, is that most people complaining about veils do not ever seen the veil in their lives. The amount of veiled women in employment is small, the amount of veiled girls in schools outside of large Muslim areas, is small. Why do we need to target something that is not causing a problem?

So its about specific situations? What specific situations are you talking about. When you have meetings with veiled women?

Please stop getting worked up about this.
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  Quote Lotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:19

The whole point about wearing a school uniform is that there is no freedom of choice in what you wear.

You are all supposed to look the same no matter what your background.

Everybody is discriminated against, however some allowances have been made for other religions in that Muslims are allowed head scarves, Sikhs are allowed turbans and Jews skull caps, which all seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

 

Surely Muslims are not required to wear full face veils, its just that some would like to wear them.

Well I would have liked to wear jeans and tee shirt when at school but I wasnt allowed to.

Apart from anything will there not be a problem identifying the various pupils wearing veils ?

 

Other than that, I like the cultural diversity in this country, within a 10 minute walk on the Edgware road in London you can pass dozens of Lebanese, Turkish, Iranian cafes and restaurants and pass people from dozens of different cultural backgrounds.

 



Edited by Lotus - 22-Mar-2007 at 11:51
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 09:26
@Ovidius
To take the example this all started about: a girl in school wearing a veil. I do not think it strange that this can be found unwanted. A teacher needs to see the face of his/her pupil to see reaction. How can you teach something to a girl if you cannot see if she understands what you are saying? You cannot see if she is paying attention? She could be sleeping under there... or she could be crying.
 
And you are contradicting yourself on the education issue. You say girls who want to wear the veil should not be send to private schools to keep them in society. But by wearing a veil they place themselves outside of it. It cannot be both ways: either they are allowed to stick to their own beliefs, and in this case there is no problem with them going to private schools who advocate these beliefs, or they must be kept withing the greater society, which means they should not be allowed to place themselves outside of it by wearing a veil.
 
Your argument about 'faith is faith' is silly. Why should we not be allowed to question faith? Whatever that faith might be? We have no problem rejecting Scientology. We have no problem judging the Catholic church's position on contraceptives.
Should we just accept muslim men beating their wives and daugthers in name of faith, even though it is against our laws and even though for many muslims this is in no way seen as part of Islam? Just because they claim that that faith is their faith?
 
As for the discrimination, I already explained myself above clearly. I see no need to repeat myself.
 
And I already said, yes, not showing your face is a cultural thing. I once got a negative mark on my work-evaluation selling coffee at the train station for not making enough eye-contact with my clients.
 
As for the small numbers of women involved: should we ignore a problem because it is small? And the number is growing fast. And it is causing a problem, because it increases intolerance and misunderstanding.
 
@ Lotus
I like cultural diversity as well. But face-veils do little to enhance it, in my opinion.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 22-Mar-2007 at 09:30

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 10:29
Unless your going to a Religious private school, Religion has no part in School. Thats what I was always told, and I agree.
You think it's descrimination for not allowing a child to wear something they barely understand? Well wait til they get to school and kids there who don't understand it at all start picking on them? Why would you want your child to stick out like a sore thumb?
It will cause distractions, and it will cause problems. Hell, I remember when kids were picked on for dressing alittle out of the ordinary, now you want them to be allowed to dress pretty much Alien to what society is used to? That is asking for problems and no child should have to go through it in school.
Kids are some of the worse when it comes to discrimination because they don't understand their words yet, and that could affect a child for a very long time.
 
Keep'em out of school. A teacher can't have a Crucifix or talk about Religion in school, so I think people can risk not covering their face in a sealed off building for 6 hours.
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 11:37

I think main problem was  that some  people think face veil is bad.(I dont see any sensible reason after this.) So they tolerate it at street but not at school. It is sad these people see  themself ethically superior.

People should not tolerate(Like a father toleration to his child) each  other,  people  should  respect rights of different people.
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 14:14
Etnically superior? That sort of goes against what the West is about, atleast in the US. We give alot of rights to minorities. And since when does a relgion have to do with ethnicity?
Our public systems have nothing to do with "Ethnic Superiority". I can't believe thats your arguement for something you don't agree with.
 
Schools don't want it because it creates are target for ridicule and a distraction.
 
There are more cons then there are Pros for having it in school. Infact I don't think their is a pro quality for it in school, it doesn't help you to learn quicker does it?
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 16:41
I think we all agree in being open-minded, and accepting of foreigners in our countries (whatever country that may be)... but in no way do I see why the host country needs to change their own laws to accomodate to others' beliefs. Being open-minded and tolerant is wonderful, but there's such a thing as being so open-minded your brain falls out of the hole in your skull. I think at some point, the host country should be allowed to draw the line in the sand and tell people to suck it up. Besides, it seems only the western world holds these ideals. I know western women who have gone to middle-eastern nations and refused to cover up, and they have been harassed, heckled, and even threatened. Shows how 'universal' these 'globalized' ideals of 'open-mindedness' really are.
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 17:35
Etnically superior? That sort of goes against what the West is about, atleast in the US. We give alot of rights to minorities.
 
Well, You give a lot of right to minorities? You give? That is excatly what I mean. You are giving nothing to them. These are already their rights. I hope you did see my point.
 
I think we all agree in being open-minded, and accepting of foreigners in our countries (whatever country that may be)...
 
My friend, It is not your country. It is both your and their country. So you are accepting them to their country?
 
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 17:36
They don't have to be iuniversal to be enlightened.  I personally do not see any problem with the head scarf should any woman or girl wish to wear it, since it is her prerogative.
 
I think "bans" on any kind of garb, religious or otherwise, are draconian and backwards in nature.  The agenda seems to be more of forced assimilation than anything else.
 
Face veils, on the other hand, are simply ridiculous - why hide the face? Such a thing is not congruent with an open society.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 17:42
Well, You give a lot of right to minorities? You give? That is excatly what I mean. You are giving nothing to them. These are already their rights. I hope you did see my point.
I'm talking about more rights that put them above equality. Why? Because of a horrible past and a dark time in history. Plus there are still racist individuals.
But what your discussing has more to do with our laws then individual thoughts. And their my friend is why I question your idea of Ethinic Superiority. Our laws don't have them for the majority at all.
My friend, It is not your country. It is both your and their country. So you are accepting them to their country?
Nope, he was right, America belongs to Americans. We accept others to come into our nation, to become apart of us, to add to our culture, but not to change our laws and country to make it one they came from. Religions don't belong in secular buildings, so the head scarf doesn't either.
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 18:13
Good points, Search. America is, well, for Americans. We have our traditions, our culture, and our way of life, and when people come over here to make their way in the world, they ought to have to adapt around the pre-existing culture; not the other way around. However, it is the responsibility of the host nation not to oppress or coerce the immigrants into abandonign their own culture, but at some point, the two come to a point of contention (a cultural 'head-butt,' if you will), and in that situation it is not the pre-existing government that should have to change, but the immigrant in question. And, as Search said, religion has no place in secular buildings anyway. If you can't celebrate christmas festivities in schools, then people can't wear obvious religious dress in school. A cross or a star of David can be worn on a chain around the neck, hidden, but a veil is not only public (publicity of your ethnicity, I'm okay with; turbans, burkas, etc), but the fact that a veil conceals the person's face is disruptive. It would be like if I wore a mask to school; disruptive. It's just not how we do business.
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 18:21
Originally posted by Lotus

The whole point about wearing a school uniform is that there is no freedom of choice in what you wear.

You are all supposed to look the same no matter what your background.

Everybody is discriminated against, however some allowances have been made for other religions in that Muslims are allowed head scarves, Sikhs are allowed turbans and Jews skull caps, which all seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

 

Surely Muslims are not required to wear full face veils, its just that some would like to wear them.

Well I would have liked to wear jeans and tee shirt when at school but I wasnt allowed to.

Apart from anything will there not be a problem identifying the various pupils wearing veils ?

 

Other than that, I like the cultural diversity in this country, within a 10 minute walk on the Edgware road in London you can pass dozens of Lebanese, Turkish, Iranian cafes and restaurants and pass people from dozens of different cultural backgrounds.

 



Very good points about the uniforms in schools, but I want to develop an idea further...

When schools enforce uniforms, they're not discriminating against people; they're merely setting a code of what is acceptable dress, and what is not. It is respectful to show up to school well-dressed, as opposed to showing up in ratty jeans and a t-shirt. The uniform shows that you respect the institution enough to abide by it's rules. It's not discrimination. Just like in the workforce, you are expected to wear a shirt and tie; it's not discriminating against sloppy-dressers, it's instilling an idea of respect, standards, and community in a group that dress alike and work towards a common goal.

Calling people having expectations of conduct or dress discrimination is really rather immature. It's the real world. Put up or shut up. There's a lot of stuff I disagree with out there, and I wish that I didn't have to dress up for work or special functions, but it's a respect thing. I show my boss respect by showing up for work in what I am expected to wear, and I show up to weddings in a suit because it's respectful to the bride and groom. See where I'm going with this?
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 18:25
So Brian, you think people should hide items of religous faith? Is religion now a dirty little secret that is only acceptable in the home? That is just wrong! People should proclaim their faith openly and unashemedly. I know I do. I wear my Thor's Hammer on a chain 'round my neck every day, outside my shirt! Let people express theri religion however they wish! Governments have no damn right to restrict religion! If girls want to wear veils as a sign of their faith then let them!

Edited by Adalwolf - 22-Mar-2007 at 18:28
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 18:51
I think what Brian said is that the chains that people wear with symbols don't scream out who you are and what you are. It doesn't cause conflict or distractions.
Secular buildings shouldn't support a religion at all. We aren't allowed to wear masks, or even hats, why should a religion get special treatment to wear what they want? You want equality, then keep it to a minimum.
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