About "ArmenianSurvival"

As for population argument(which has no source),lets not forget the number of casualties will not make much sense since ''a murder is a murder'' and can be defined by only law,which we used to discuss.Furthermore please keep in mind the Turkish Caualties doubled in comprasion the Ottoman armenians in the region.I am gonna reply with Kevork Pamukcian'S statics directly,who is accepted to have been best Turkish-Armenian researcher.

400.000 Ottoman Armenians left for Russia and Caucasus

200.000Ottoman Armenians left for usa and europe

400.000 Ottoman Armenians stayed in Syria and Lebanon

100.000protestan and catholic ottoman armenians excluded from relocation

100.000otoman armenians converted to islam.

approximately 400.000 or 500.000 according to kevork pamukcian is the number of armenian casualties in comprasion the turkish casualties in the region which over 1 million.

Kevork Pamukcian wrote over 400 articles in both Turkish and Armenian.You can get info about him by clicking this web-site http://www.arasyayincilik.com/turkce/turkce.html  His writing published by the Aras Publications,which is a window of the armenian literature in Turkey.

 

Edited by TheDiplomat

By the Way

i have to bring up the point that the individual rights can be restricted during times concerning state security with the'' European Human Rights Commitment ''signed in 1954.The eruopean human rights commitment makes sense to me.

yesterday i researched the point of law on this issue.And that convention article posted by Yiannis is not the whole article ofcourse,which means there are restrictions onthe definations of genocide acts as regard to situation.For example,times of war,civil uprests excluded from this definition.

Now i understand why the opposite side  refused heavily when The Turkish side made an offer by Ambassador Gunduz Aktan for putting the issue on the agenda of international law.!And this refusal continues!

 

Ofcourse it is now clear that why the British side strongly refuses these allegations..without doubt as well as Israeli scholars.

So it is not that simple to comment from just 1 page.

 

Originally posted by TheDiplomat approximately 400.000 or 500.000 according to kevork pamukcian is the number of armenian casualties in comprasion the turkish casualties in the region which over 1 million.

Buddy, incase your not aware, the bulk of the Ottoman Army was comprised of Turks which died in the World War, the war they chose to join. There are a lot more Turks in the Ottoman Empire than there are Armenians, hence more numerical losses of lives. If you choose to look at the PERCENTAGE of people killed from each side, the Armenian side was substantially higher, seeing as there was only 2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time. Armenians were basically forced to leave the Empire, they did not choose to leave under their own decision.

Just because Armenians are happy with their lives now doesnt mean their forced relocation was right. Obviously they are happy because they dont live under nationalistic regimes anymore like they did under Talat Pasha. Armenians find economic prosperity wherever they are in any diaspora, it has been the same throughout our history. Look at all the accomplishments Armenians had OUTSIDE of Armenia. You cannot say forced relocation and exile as well as murder is justified just because 3 generations later the Armenians are happy with their situation. You're simply giving eye-candy to the rest of the forumers in order to justify genocide.

Sorry i did not give a source to the maps. It is in a book by Robert H. Hewson called Armenia: A Historical Atlas, which talks about Armenian history and gives about 230 maps about all kinds of information pertaining to the region. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/332284.html#about

 

Oghuz, i appreciate your comments. Its good to talk to an open-minded Azeri on the topic, its hard for Armenians to even come into contact with Azeris nowadays unless it involves guns and warfare. Your comments seem pretty accurate, as there is atrocities on both sides in any war.

Here is what i have heard from written sources as well as first-hand accounts from when i spoke to soldiers that served in the war on my visit to Karabagh.

There was a conversation going on in the car. My friends dad asked the war veteran (conversation is translated from Armenian) "How did the Armenians become brave out of nowhere and win the war?"
The veteran replied, "Once the Armenians learned how to kill, the war was over."

Now, the Armenians in Karabagh like other Armenians are not the war-type, they are simply villagers. Fighting against the Azeri army, many people disregard the fact that the Armenian government did not get involved, it was the villagers that live in the Nagorno-Karabagh region that did the fighting. You are right in that Russia did back the Armenians in Karabagh, but Turkey also supplied an already-rich Azerbaijan. Plus, you have to remember that the Azeri army occupied all these lands, they were only defending. And, one has to know the geography of Karabagh to know how great of a feat it is to take some of these cities, as most of them are all up on mountains and is very hard to conquer if you are attacking.

We stayed in a city called Shushi, where in the church right across the street from my hotel was the Azeri barracks. They stocked their weapons in there and hid in it when the Armenians attacked, knowing the Armenians would never bomb or open fire on their own church. Shushi is a half-hour drive from the capital city of Stepanakert. The soldier that was speaking said that from Stepanakert they climbed into the sewer and crawled the whole half-hour drive just to reach the city of Shushi, as it is impossible to conquer the city by simply trying to over-power its defense, because it is so high up and protected by mountains. Not to mention the Armenians were outnumbered 2 to 1 and had far worse weapons. They crawled through the sewer, entered the city, and in a nutshell, took over. After they took Shushi, the war was just about over, because that city was the greatest stronghold that the Azeri troops had in all of Karabagh. I dont see how Russian intervention made a difference there, especially when you note that the Azeri Government is far richer than a bunch of villagers, including the help Azeris got from Turkey. The guns that the Armenians had were outdated, they had no planes, and only had around 5 tanks, all of which were stolen from Azeri forces, or else Armenians would have no tanks. The Azeris had tanks, planes, much better guns and had double the soldiers, as well as an obvious strategic advantage, seeing as they occupied the whole country. No matter how you look at it, its simply unbelievable at how we won the war. The final list of approximate casualties was 5,000 Armenians and 25,000 Azeris.

Now, dont get me wrong, as impossible and amazing as the victory was, it should not be forgotten that both Armenians and Azeris have suffered greatly from the war. Besides all the dead, there are many who have lost relatives, friends and limbs.

Originally posted by Yiannis Correction: those Armenians that were not killed, were forced to immigrate. Those who were not fortunate enough to immigrate, were forced to convert to Islam because simply their life had become intolerable in an unhospitable land. Same happened to the Greeks of Anatolia, Constantinople, Imvros & Tenedos ... I trust it's no coincidence...

What you say about conversion to Islam is a pure lie as all Armenians and Greeks besides the ones emigrated wasnt forced to change identities. They could have done it on their own wish, but many of them are living happily and wealthily in Turkey...

For example,due to latest statistics, there is 1 Greek orthodox church PER 30 Greeks in Istanbul,while there is 1 mosque per 353 Moslems...Turkey is a country where people can freely practise the religion they would like.Like the Ottoman Empire, who didnt force any Ottoman citizens in Balkans to change their cultures, lifestyles, religions...That is why Balkan nations are still talking with their own language and that is the reason there are Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks instead of Ottoman people talking Turkish...Think of what the English had done to the ones they are controlling.They destroyed the culture, forced them to change language and religions..Ottomans were peaceful and didnt do that.

Once a Prussian Field-Marshal said and I quote "A nation which can't defend itself, does not deserve to exist". I have to check my books to find out what the fellow's name was.

My point is, we are not living in a utopia. Nations, tribes and so on have been committing genocides for ages and it's just going to continue. So stop your bitching and have a nice day...

lol? we may not live in an utopia but neither do we live in the stone age!

To ArmenianSurvival;

1.) What the hell do you know about my nations history? The history of the Turkish nation does not consist only of The Ottoman Empire. We go far back than that. Don't make comments on things you don't have any idea about.

2.) Well about the genocide, you got what you deserved. Appereantly we didn't do a good job since there are a lot of you going around bitching. By the way since it was a genocide why didn't we slaughter the armenians living in the west part of the empire. Bet you got an answer for that!

3.) Why does it matter if the Prussian Nation doesn't exist, does that mean you can't quote from historical figures whose nations cease to exist? That's the lamest thing I've ever heard. What the Field Marshal said stand true.

Last but not least, your pathetic insults amuses me so keep up the good work!

LATEST INFORMATION

i have learned that ''Political'' gorup remained outside of 4 type of gorups in the commitment of 1948.

because ,on the conditions of independence,autonomy people could commit crimes.it can still be a crime but never to be defined genocide as a result of MUTUAL ACTIONS.

Therefore,i dont need to  tell you that you should reswpect the rule of law.

You have to respect the rule of law  if you wish what you claim to be accepted. 

Edited by TheDiplomat

So you live in Cappadocia? I've seen a very nice documentary-style film, in Greek TV a couple of months ago, about Cappadocia. Mostly about the churces but also the natural beauty of the region. I'm sure that if you preserve these churches and show the nature of the region, there will be many tourists interested to visit Cappadocia. I've seen that some Greeks and other tourists visit the place, but in an unorganized fashion, and the hotels are not of good quality.