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TheDiplomat View Drop Down
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About "ArmenianSurvival"
    Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 11:33

Dear Colchis,

1-i am a 20 years undergraduate student...i havent taken my diplomacy lecture yet.

2-SYRIA AND LEBANON were Ottoman lands during that time.this is the answer to your question..

Hey,is this a matter of ''to be'' or ''not to be''?

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 13:41
So can anyone of you people please summerize what is going on in this Armenian genocide?  Please do in 3~4 sentences.
Grrr..
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 18:02

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

In both of these regions, Armenians had collaborated with the enemy and involved in activities to facilitate the enemys invasion.

Later, the scope of the immigration was widened in order to include the Armenians in the other provinces, who rioted, collaborated with the enemy and screened the activities of Armenian Gangs. Although the Catholic and Protestant Armenians were excluded from immigration at the beginning, later those whose harmful activities were observed, were also relocated.

You fail to mention the reason SOME Armenians collaborated with the enemy. Ottoman forces had already ravaged and destroyed Armenian towns and cities in Western Turkey. Word spread, discontent rises against Ottoman forces by other Armenian cities. Obviously if they heard Ottoman forces are massacring Armenian cities in the west theyre going to rebel and collaborate with the enemy, because they dont want to be ruled by such an oppressive force and would seek independence (which you said was understandable). You think Armenians like disrupting their daily lives (Many Armenians were government workers and successful merchants/businessmen, very respected citizens) just to rebel for no reason? Everyone who rebels has a reason and must be unhappy with the current rule or else they wouldnt rebel in the first place. Armenians were successful in the Ottoman Empire, they wouldnt rebel for the hell of it. When they heard of the atrocities from the west that was heading to their cities in the east, they rose and SOME of them collaborated with the enemy. Most of them were unarmed to begin with and couldnt even if they wanted to.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Since 1915, numerous papers, reports, books, etc. were written and published about the immigration implementation. The Armenians, by using false documents have succeeded to deceit the World for a long time. The rumor about Armenian holocaust (!) which expressed at first as three hundred thousand and later increased to three million has no basis at all. In fact, although English and French authorities have extensively studied the Ottoman archives during their occupation in Istanbul have failed to find even a single document hinting about such holocaust.

OBVIOUSLY theres no Armenian Genocide documents in Istanbul, that would ruin their whole argument dont you think? Who do you think controls historical archives in Istanbul? No, not the Byzantines anymore, the Turkish government does. Name any other country besides the accused (Turkey), and they all officially or unofficially agree that there was an Armenian Genocide through their extensive research. Even Turkey's best allies say that there was an Armenian Genocide, they just dont pass bills on it because they have military bases and other entities in Turkey. Its all politics, they wouldnt say there was an Armenian Genocide for the hell of it if they are allied with Turkey...think about it.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Most of The Ottoman Armenian community were loyal ''till ''1877-1878 Russo-Turk War.After this war,it was only the Armenians now,who were christians but not declared independece from the Ottoman Empire yet.after this date,armenian rbellion movements founded and started to pursue the Bulgarian tactic.

if you look back to the history you see that after this date,Armenian Rebellion Organizations founded.Hincakist movement founded in 1887 in Switzerland.Dashnagsution founded in 1890 in Tbilis/Georgia.see?these organizations were even founded abroad.

In the 1877-1878 Russo-Turk war, some of the elite generals for the Ottoman Army were Armenians. That shows on what scale we served the empire. And those Armenian Rebellion Organizations that werent even founded in the Ottoman Empire are irrelevant at that time, because they had no influence in the Ottoman Empire until after successive massacres by Sultan Abdul-Hamid in which he killed around 200,000 Armenians in the years 1895-1896. Only after mass killings did these rebel groups have any effect on the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire, and even then it was on a very small scale. But after getting massacred, can you blame SOME of them for wanting to rebel?

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Come on man!..You are already at 18.You must be able to investigate what is taught to you...You must be able to think twice on the issues at least...This scenario you have written abovedo you really believe that could really take place....if you sey yes,you must have no knowledge of Ottoman transportation,ottoman teleghram system,Ottoman Armenian Society....

I actually know my fair share of Ottoman Armenian Society, i know many people that were born and raised in Turkey whose grand-parents were adults during Ottoman reign...i dont know how you would know, seeing as there are barely any Armenians left in Turkey. And if youre going on what you are taught, good luck...do you actually think the Turkish government and Turkish education are going to give you objective data pertaining to WWI and the Armenian Genocide or "relocation"? I live in the United States where i have access to Armenian, Non-Armenian and Turkish sources, and have read from all 3. If you actually think your government gives you every side of the story then i wont disrupt your dream.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

i will replyonly your message to me on the Armenian relocation Issue in the wake of the Great Armenian Rebellion.

You fail to mention the cause of both of these events. And that was the massacres of Armenians in western Turkey spreading eastward. You talk about the difference between relocation and deportation. You were right in the explanation, but what happened to the Armenians was a FORCED relocation, and a forced relocation is a deportation, my friend. And where did they "relocate" them to? The deserts of Der Zor in Syria? And that whole article you had was written by a Turkish association...what an incredibly objective source you found!


Armenian Genocide monument in Yerevan, Armenia.


Armenian Genocide monument in Paris, France.


Armenian Genocide monument in Germany.


Armenian Genocide monument in Sao Paulo, Brazil


Armenian Genocide monument in Montebello, California.

I can post pictures of Armenian genocide monuments all day if you want. I can also post pictures of victims of the Armenian Genocide taken by the German soldier Armin T. Wegner.

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote Colchis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 18:35
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Dear Colchis,

1-i am a 20 years undergraduate student...i havent taken my diplomacy lecture yet.


Well you sure are keen on it, then. And how come you haven't taken a diplomacy lecture yet, what year are you in?

2-SYRIA AND LEBANON were Ottoman lands during that time.this is the answer to your question..

Thanks for the pop lecture in historical geography, on topics I already knew obviously, however it is not the answer to my question, it is merely a superfluous information. The fact that Syria and Lebanon (with or without caps) were Ottoman lands doesn't mean diddlie squat, you see, when you replace a nation, it means you have replaced a nation. And if it is against their will it's called deportation, not emigration. Think of the Chechens whom Stalin deported to Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan was a part of the USSR at the time. Now would it mean that they had emigrated? It can only be called an emigration in blindly euphemistic terms, I'm afraid, also known as "official speech" worldwide..

Hey,is this a matter of ''to be'' or ''not to be''?



Sorry, I'm not following you. Is what a matter of to be or not to be?
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 02:36
Just stop bullsh*tting, people.
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:42

Originally posted by demon

So can anyone of you people please summerize what is going on in this Armenian genocide?  Please do in 3~4 sentences.

Simple:

WW1. Russians fight Ottomans at the Caucasus. Armenians side with the Russians and rebel. Ottomans sink the revolution in blood and deport the Armenian population en masse from Armenia to Syria. What followed were the infamous "death marches" where civilian population starved intentionally* to death walking from Caucasus to Syria and died like flies in an orgy of pillage, murder and rape.

*(I say intentionally because if you send all these people away taking no measures what so ever for their well-being-well that is intentional)

 

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  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 05:43
This is probably one of the best explanations I have ever heard about the issue. Congrats Yiannis.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 14:05
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

You fail to mention the reason SOME Armenians collaborated with the enemy. Ottoman forces had already ravaged and destroyed Armenian towns and cities in Western Turkey. Word spread, discontent rises against Ottoman forces by other Armenian cities. Obviously if they heard Ottoman forces are massacring Armenian cities in the west theyre going to rebel and collaborate with the enemy, because they dont want to be ruled by such an oppressive force and would seek independence (which you said was understandable). You think Armenians like disrupting their daily lives (Many Armenians were government workers and successful merchants/businessmen, very respected citizens) just to rebel for no reason? Everyone who rebels has a reason and must be unhappy with the current rule or else they wouldnt rebel in the first place. Armenians were successful in the Ottoman Empire, they wouldnt rebel for the hell of it. When they heard of the atrocities from the west that was heading to their cities in the east, they rose and SOME of them collaborated with the enemy. Most of them were unarmed to begin with and couldnt even if they wanted to.

everybody must have a reason for a rebellion...well thats what we both agree on.and the Armenian reason for a rebellion was a very important goal for themselves:AN INDEPENDENT ARMENIAN STATE

this idea was taught at armenian schools,in the churches...so it was more important than being rich or respected in terms of national feelings.

 

Originally posted by Armenian

OBVIOUSLY theres no Armenian Genocide documents in Istanbul, that would ruin their whole argument dont you think? Who do you think controls historical archives in Istanbul? No, not the Byzantines anymore, the Turkish government does. Name any other country besides the accused (Turkey), and they all officially or unofficially agree that there was an Armenian Genocide through their extensive research. Even Turkey's best allies say that there was an Armenian Genocide, they just dont pass bills on it because they have military bases and other entities in Turkey. Its all politics, they wouldnt say there was an Armenian Genocide for the hell of it if they are allied with Turkey...think about it.

i said

THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH FORCES,WHICH OCCUPIED ISTANBUL AFTER WWI,CHECKED WHOLE OTTOMAN ARCHIVES JUST AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

there wasnt a Turkish government founded yet even at that time.

 

 

Originally posted by Armenian

In the 1877-1878 Russo-Turk war, some of the elite generals for the Ottoman Army were Armenians. That shows on what scale we served the empire. And those Armenian Rebellion Organizations that werent even founded in the Ottoman Empire are irrelevant at that time, because they had no influence in the Ottoman Empire until after successive massacres by Sultan Abdul-Hamid in which he killed around 200,000 Armenians in the years 1895-1896. Only after mass killings did these rebel groups have any effect on the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire, and even then it was on a very small scale. But after getting massacred, can you blame SOME of them for wanting to rebel?

Look,i never cliamed whole armenians to be traitors..They were never innocent lambs,loyals also..There were very good Armenians and there were very bad ARmenians.Just like in each nation...But when a Berlin Conference held for a final treaty agreement after this war,THE ARMENIAN GREGORIEN RELIGION LEADER asked the Russian delegations for a greater autonomy,if possible an independence in the future..And a sentence put on the treaty;a sentence that refers to the Armenian Society for the first time in an agrement.Therefore ,i also assert that the issue starts with this date.

how come you believe that Abdulhamid could do it?He was completely a pacifist..as for the 1895 events,pls dont exaggerate..

There is something well-know,As macedon rebels,the armenian rebels also always confessed that they started these events for grabing the attention of the great european powers.Then getting an independence as The Bulgarians.For this aim it was ok when their own nationalities die,they also never hesitated to confess that..But public didnt know that...and blaming the Turks...which is the easiest way...

 

Originally posted by Armenian

 I live in the United States where i have access to Armenian, Non-Armenian and Turkish sources, and have read from all 3. If you actually think your government gives you every side of the story then i wont disrupt your dream.

We are living in INTERNET AGE..an internet age where i can reach online sources,online libraris in each part of the world when i want...So you cant challange me on that....i can easily find any source wherever i want from.

 

Originally posted by Armenian

You fail to mention the cause of both of these events. And that was the massacres of Armenians in western Turkey spreading eastward. You talk about the difference between relocation and deportation. You were right in the explanation, but what happened to the Armenians was a FORCED relocation, and a forced relocation is a deportation, my friend. And where did they "relocate" them to? The deserts of Der Zor in Syria? And that whole article you had was written by a Turkish association...what an incredibly objective source you found!

1-didnt the american relocate the american citizens of Japanese Race during the second world war!And in that case,the Americans of japanese race hadnt started any rebellion that would challange the security meanings...

There is smth..EUROPEAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITMENt.and it is mentioned that for the state security some rights can be restricted...

It should never be forgetten that the decision of the Armenian Relocation taken after a rebellion had broken out in action.

As for this desert story,these place are the lands where arabs and other communities have been living for centuries..so where were they relocated?here is a good article for you..I say good because it is so detailed.

REGIONS THE ARMENIANS WERE MOVED TO AND FROM

The regions Armenians evacuated and resettled in were stated in the cryptic message dated 23 May 1915 by Talat Pasha sent to the 4th Army Command. In his aforementioned cryptic message, having provided the information regarding the Armenians to be transported to other provinces, Talat Pasha communicated that it would be suitable for the Armenians evacuated from the provinces of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis to be resettled in the Southern part of the province of Mousul, and in the sub-division of Zor and in the sub-division of Urfa excluding the Central City; and also those evacuated from the vicinities of Adana, Aleppo and Maras, to be resettled in the Eastern part of the province of Syria along with the Eastern and Southeastern part of the province of Aleppo.

However, due to the fact that Armenian rebellions and massacres went on; and order dated 5 July 1915 was sent to the provinces of Adana, Erzurum, Bitlis, Aleppo, Diyarbekir, Syria, Sivas, Trabzon, Mamuretlaziz and Mousul, to the Office of the President of Commission on Abandoned Properties in Adana,. And to the Governors of the Subdivisions of Zor, Maras, Canik, Kayseri and Izmit; and it was stated that the regions allocated for the resettlement of Armenians were broadened upon need.

Accordingly, the following shows how the region where Armenians were transported and resettled, was determined ensuring that the Armenian population should not exceed 10% of the Moslem population:

1. The eastern and southern regions of the province of Mousul including the villages and towns in the subdivision of Kerkk 80 km from Iranian border;

2. East and south of the sub-division of Zor including the settlements in Habur and Euphrates River valley, 25 km within the Diyarbekir boder;

3. Villages and towns in the east, south and south-west of the province of Aleppo, excluding the northern part; towns and villages 25 km away from the railway route including the sub-divisions of Havran and Kerek in the province of Syria.(*)


Furthermore,i have checked also these the governments issued at that year.According to these issues:

1-The government considered food supply of the relocated Armenians

2-the government considered water supply of the relocated Armenians

3-The government considered shelter needings of the relocated armenians

4-the government considered making a life needing of the relocated Armenians..

so it is clear that the government intented to provaide any basic needing of the relocated Armenians:food,water,shelter and a job..

how come some people could claim of any extermnination then

by the way,the government also punished those bandits who attacked the armenian convoys and their deaths..The government also punished some officials who didnt take enough responsibility for the security of the Relocated Armenians.

 

 

Originally posted by Armenian

I can post pictures of Armenian genocide monuments all day if you want. I can also post pictures of victims of the Armenian relocation taken by the German soldier Armin T. Wegner.

Yes ,you can...i believe you there...And then i would  underput that these monuments built recently and sponsoured by the Armenian Society living in these places.

without doubt,i have also tons of pictures of the Turkish Victims of the atrocities committed with intend to destroy by Aram Manukian,Karekin Pastirmacian,Sivasli Murat Boyamacian,Antranik Pasha and their troops



Edited by TheDiplomat
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 14:23
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by demon

So can anyone of you people please summerize what is going on in this Armenian genocide?  Please do in 3~4 sentences.

Simple:

WW1. Russians fight Ottomans at the Caucasus. Armenians side with the Russians and rebel. Ottomans sink the revolution in blood and deport the Armenian population en masse from Armenia to Syria. What followed were the infamous "death marches" where civilian population starved intentionally* to death walking from Caucasus to Syria and died like flies in an orgy of pillage, murder and rape.

Sorry but this issue not a that simple issue..because it has been one of the most complicated issues of the history.Imperial France,OImperial British Empire and Tsar Russia play very  important roles as well.

Originally posted by Yiannis

*(I say intentionally because if you send all these people away taking no measures what so ever for their well-being-well that is intentional)

the government considered food,water,shelter supply of the relocated Armenians without doubt.As well as their making of a life.it is forgetten that during that it wass not only some armenian who died from hunger but also many many Turks couldnt find anything andied...Limon Von Sander,the german general said he even observed these at Gallipoli front.

For your concern:

THE RELOCATION LAW

Temporary Law on the Measures Implemented by the Military against those Opposing the Government Implementations at Wartime also known as Immigration Law-Tehcir Law was resolved on 27 May 1915.  The Law was published in the Official Gazette of the time, Takvim-i Vekayi, on 1 June 1915 and came into force.

Article 1 of the before mentioned temporary law authorizes, the commanders of the Army, Army-corps and Divisions to take military measures against those opposing government orders, countrys defense, and the protection of peace; and against those organizing armed attacks and resistance, and kill rebels during aggression and uprising in wartime. The second article authorizes the same commanders to transfer and resettle on a single basis or in mass, the people living in villages and towns who are found to be engaged in espionage or treason.

The properties owned by the Armenians subjected to immigration were protected under an order dated 10 June 1915. Commission on Abandoned Properties comprising of a president and two members, one administrative and one financial, was established. These commissions are to determine Armenian properties in the villages and towns that are evacuated, and to keep detailed record books. One of the books is to be kept in the regional churches, one to be submitted to the regional administration, and one shall be kept by the commission. Non-durable goods and animal stock shall be auctioned and the money shall be kept. In location where a commission is not appointed, the provisions of the communiqu shall be enforced by the officers in the regions. Both the commission and the regional administrators shall be responsible for the protection of these properties until the Armenians return.

As it can be understood from the law dated 27 May 1915 and order dated 10 June 1915, the immigration implementation initiated by Talat Pasha and approved by the Parliament covers the regions that threaten the security of the front directly. The first of these regions includes the vicinities of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis, which constitute the background of Caucasian and Iranian fronts. The second region is provinces of Mersin-Iskenderun, which constitute the background of the Sinae front. Because, in these regions, Armenians were collaborating with the enemy and were engaged in activities facilitating the landing of the enemy forces.

However, the law regarding the measures implemented by the military against those opposing the government implementations at wartime is an authorizing law intended to protect the state and its legal order. One of the most important characteristics of this law is that not a name of any ethnic group or community was mentioned nor even suggested in the text of the law. The Ottoman citizens of Moslem, Greek and Armenian origin covered under this law were subjected to immigrate from their own place and resettle elsewhere. To regard this law as being directed against one particular ethnic group is an indication of a lack of information, or else, intentional behavior...

Archive Documents:

Law of Relocation

Exclusion of the Protestant Armenians;the protestant armenians were not relocated L. 1333 (15 August 1915) BOA. DH. FR, 55/20

RETURN OF THE REPLACE ARMENIANS

That Armenians are allowed to return. (Ciphered telegram from the Ministry of the Interior to some provinces and subdivisions, regarding that the food and lodging be provided for Greeks and Armenians who were transferred to other locations due to the war, and that their return in security has bees permitted.) 16 M. 1337 (22 October 1918) BOA. HR. M, 43/34
Reference: Armenians in Ottoman Documents(1915-1920)

MEASURES TAKEN FOR THE RETURN OF THE ARMENIANS

Preventive measures taken for the inhabitants who will be returned to their countries. (Ciphered telegram from the Ministry of the Interior to some provinces and provincial subdivisions, that those individuals who were sent and transpored to other locations due to the war, have been permitted o return to their regions and that the necessary measures should be taken for their safe return, and those whose do not act accordingly in these matters will be punished.) 17 M. 1337 (23 October 1918) BOA. HR. M, 43/34
Reference: Armenians in Ottoman Documents(1915-1920)


EXCLUSION OF TEACHERS AND CHILDREN FROM THE RELOCATION LAW

THE FEEDING AND LODGING OF THE ARMENIAN FAMILIES 



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  Quote What Life? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 16:04

As an American, I never really heard about this issue until now. Arda (I am guessing he is Turkish), has major points.

Bahh, I don't know much about this issue.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 03:16
Originally posted by What Life?

As an American, I never really heard about this issue until now. Arda (I am guessing he is Turkish), has major points.

I wouldn't wipe my ehhm nose with Arda's "points". Papers are papers that can be fabricated anytime/anywhere. Dead Armenians are dead, period.

Moreover, dear "what's life" since you're new here and you are not even sure that Arda is Turkish, how come and you know that his "old" name is Arda?

There's something fishy going on here

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 13:46
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by What Life?

As an American, I never really heard about this issue until now. Arda (I am guessing he is Turkish), has major points.

I wouldn't wipe my ehhm nose with Arda's "points". Papers are papers that can be fabricated anytime/anywhere. Dead Armenians are dead, period.

Moreover, dear "what's life" since you're new here and you are not even sure that Arda is Turkish, how come and you know that his "old" name is Arda?

There's something fishy going on here

i believe in science..And science is already able to decide if an archive is fabricated or not...

Ofcourse we are on a discussion forum i will not be able to prove this to you.

But you wrote your concern and i wanted to satisfy your concern..If you dont want to believe,if you have ''overconfidence bias'' as we call in social psychology,i cant force you to believe...Thats your choice...

whats fishy here..i couldnt understand...At the top of this page i gave private info about myself..so any person who follows this thread and who had been in former AE as well,can guess this diplomat guy is Arda.

And remember in former AE we didnt have ''flags which shows where we come from''



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  Quote What Life? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 14:52

"I wouldn't wipe my ehhm nose with Arda's "points". Papers are papers that can be fabricated anytime/anywhere. Dead Armenians are dead, period.

Moreover, dear "what's life" since you're new here and you are not even sure that Arda is Turkish, how come and you know that his "old" name is Arda?

There's something fishy going on here "

Nice observation Yiannis, but you went one step forward instead of two. I looked at other threads on this website, and I now know of many people here. I am planning to join soon enough as well.

You are a Greek by the way right? I don't see why an Greek would get involved though...there's something fishy going on here.

Look, I like history, and I am interested on these unknown parts of history that aren't really thought in our school. For example Central Asia, Eastern Asia, Africa, and many more - are ignored. So this thread really interested me, and I wanted to find out more. Both "Arda" and "ArmenianSurvival" (Didn't get his name yet), seem to have many good points, but for now, I think Arda has the best.

That's my take on it anyways, see you around.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 19:02

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH FORCES,WHICH OCCUPIED ISTANBUL AFTER WWI,CHECKED WHOLE OTTOMAN ARCHIVES JUST AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

Reproduced below is an extract from the text of the official British Government report into the Armenian Massacres conducted by Turkey during April-December 1915. The report, published while the massacres were still in progress (in October 1915) was produced by James Bryce, who had earlier published a report investigating alleged German atrocities in Belgium shortly after the war began in August 1914.

In his report Lord Bryce clearly indicted the present Turkish government as having deliberately set itself upon a policy of extermination of the Ottoman Empire's Armenian population.

The Report:
<http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/brycereport_armenia. htm>

German memoir of massacres:
<http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/armenianmassacres.h tm>

Kind of defeats your whole argument, eh?

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

there wasnt a Turkish government founded yet even at that time.

Ya, i guess the Ottoman Empire was ran by the Byzantines, perhaps? The Ottoman Empire was ran by Turks. The Regime which was in power during the Armenian Genocide was coincidentally called the "YOUNG TURK" regime. The Republic of Turkey was not founded yet, but the government which was in power was definitely Turkish. I suggest you stop playing with words.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Look,i never cliamed whole armenians to be traitors..They were never innocent lambs,loyals also..There were very good Armenians and there were very bad ARmenians.Just like in each nation...But when a Berlin Conference held for a final treaty agreement after this war,THE ARMENIAN GREGORIEN RELIGION LEADER asked the Russian delegations for a greater autonomy,if possible an independence in the future..And a sentence put on the treaty;a sentence that refers to the Armenian Society for the first time in an agrement.Therefore ,i also assert that the issue starts with this date.

What does this have to do with Turkey? The Russian troops left the Caucasus front in 1917, which is when the Ottoman massacres really started kicking in and they completely wiped out the Eastern Armenian cities. They were marching toward what is the border of modern-day Armenia. Armenian commoners fought off the Ottoman Army and won their independence on May 28,1918. It is known as the Battle of Sardarapat, the war that if lost, would be the realization of the Ottoman dream of a Pan-Turkic empire stretching from Istanbul all the way to Kazakhstan. You have obviously never heard of Pan-Turkism, the dream of that very empire was the aim of the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. Even though religious authorities in the Ottoman Empire and many of its Turkish citizens condemned the government for what it was doing to the Armenians, it was still carried out and the dream was almost realized.

Btw, to get back to your quote, Armenians already had Autonomy in 1918, that is the year they became an independent state. WWI ended around 6 months AFTER we gained independence, so how would we ask for autonomy after the war ended if we already had it? And plus, the region of Armenia that became independent in 1918 was the part of Armenia which was controlled by Russia, not the Ottoman Empire. I fail to see the point in that comment...shed some light on it.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

how come you believe that Abdulhamid could do it?He was completely a pacifist..as for the 1895 events,pls dont exaggerate..

<http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst373/readings/m elson.html>
That link should answer a lot of questions for you and others. It is written by a NON-Armenian, unlike all your references which are all Turkish sources. The Turkish governments had treated the Armenians pretty well before the reign of Sultan Abdul-Hamid II. He put harsh laws and taxes on Armenians, much heavier than the ones imposed on the Turkish citizens of the Ottoman Empire. Some Armenian groups agitated for change, but it was met with violence, and rather than just wiping out the rebel groups, tens of thousands of non-fighting Armenians were massacred as a result by Ottoman forces as a direct order from Sultan Abdul-Hamid II.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

1-didnt the american relocate the american citizens of Japanese Race during the second world war!And in that case,the Americans of japanese race hadnt started any rebellion that would challange the security meanings...

There is smth..EUROPEAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITMENt.and it is mentioned that for the state security some rights can be restricted...

It should never be forgetten that the decision of the Armenian Relocation taken after a rebellion had broken out in action.

As for this desert story,these place are the lands where arabs and other communities have been living for centuries..so where were they relocated?here is a good article for you..I say good because it is so detailed.

Yes, Americans relocated the Japanese during WWII, but they gave them adequate supplies of food and water as well as a much better method of transportation.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

1-The government considered food supply of the relocated Armenians

2-the government considered water supply of the relocated Armenians

3-The government considered shelter needings of the relocated armenians

4-the government considered making a life needing of the relocated Armenians..

so it is clear that the government intented to provaide any basic needing of the relocated Armenians:food,water,shelter and a job..

how come some people could claim of any extermnination then

by the way,the government also punished those bandits who attacked the armenian convoys and their deaths..The government also punished some officials who didnt take enough responsibility for the security of the Relocated Armenians.

It should not be forgotten that the "rebellions" which caused the Armenian "relocation" were direct causes of the Genocide. You still fail to disprove the Genocide theory. The pictures of the documents which you present may in fact be authentic, i surely wouldnt know. But the Ottomans are being accused of Genocide, do you think theyre going to point to those pieces of paper and say "the genocide didnt happen because even during a World War we had to listen to this!" Its a very weak argument in my opinion, and theres no evidence that what was written in those documents was actually carried out. Theres no NON-Turkish sources which prove this point, but plenty NON-Turkish and NON-Armenian sources to prove that what was written in those documents was not carried out. How do you explain the thousands upon thousands of dead bodies of Armenian women and children along the side of the road of these "relocation" routes? If they had enough food, water and protection, how could that many people die along the march? Its funny how the only people that disagree with these facts are the accused party (Turkey).

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

3-The government considered shelter needings of the relocated armenians

Ya, i guess they pitched tents in the middle of the desert for the thousands of Armenians that were on these marches. They CONSIDERED shelter needings, but did they carry them out? The vast majority of evidence says no. A person like you should know that not everything thats written on paper is carried out, especially during a WORLD WAR.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

4-the government considered making a life needing of the relocated Armenians..

Again, CONSIDERED, never carried out. Even if they did, their absent supplies of food and water never allowed the Armenians to reach this destination.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Yes ,you can...i believe you there...And then i would underput that these monuments built recently and sponsoured by the Armenian Society living in these places.

My point exactly, that monument you posted of Turkish victims of Armenian "rebellions" were in fact quite obviously sponsored by the Turkish government, the same government that labeled Armenian self-defense during the genocide as "rebellion". That was the whole point behind posting all those pictures of Armenian Genocide monuments.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

without doubt,i have also tons of pictures of the Turkish Victims of the atrocities committed with intend to destroy by Aram Manukian,Karekin Pastirmacian,Sivasli Murat Boyamacian,Antranik Pasha and their troops

Id like to see these pictures. Again, these Turkish victims were not victims of GOVERNMENT ORDER, as the Armenians were. And please dont post pictures of dead Turkish soldiers killed by the Russians or Allies during the war and attempt to call it an Armenian massacre.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 05:45

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Kind of defeats your whole argument, eh?

it does not reply whole argument during the invasioN of ISTANBUL.

what you dont wanna understand is what happened during post-wwI period.After the first world war,the British deported some high ranking Ottoman Officials concerning with the Armenian Issue.The British,The American and the ottoman archives were investigated.As a result of ''proof absence'',those were freed.The British themselves ignored the fabricated telegram prepared by Andonian.

http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/malta.html

What the British say today is very clear:

"The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman Administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British Governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide. Nor do we believe it is the business of Governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing them."

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson,  April 14, 1999

AND That Lord himself actually played a major role in the imperialistic policy towards eastern anatolia.Furthermore,the British themselves admitted that such publications like blue book written for the British Interests by Wellington Propaganda House during the first world war.

 

Originally posted by armenian

The Republic of Turkey was not founded yet, but the government which was in power was definitely Turkish. I suggest you stop playing with words.

Yeah...As known in history,English Damat Ferit Pasha and his puppet government...Actually you must thank them..instead of attributing their national passports...They were serving for your interests in the past..

 

Originally posted by armenian

Btw, to get back to your quote, Armenians already had Autonomy in 1918, that is the year they became an independent state. WWI ended around 6 months AFTER we gained independence, so how would we ask for autonomy after the war ended if we already had it? And plus, the region of Armenia that became independent in 1918 was the part of Armenia which was controlled by Russia, not the Ottoman Empire. I fail to see the point in that comment...shed some light on it.

we were discussing about the 1877-78 Russo-Turk War and Aftermath..we were refering to when the issue came about...???

who asked the first republic of armenia?

but wait..i have an armian source regarding the first republic of the armenians..The author is Hovhannes Katchaznouni (1),
the first Prime Minister of the independent Armenian Republic

The Armenian version of the book was published in Vienna by the Mihitarian Press in the year 1923. The English version appeared in New York in 1955 through the Armenian Information Service. It was translated from the original by Matthew A Callender and edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian).

chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>In his Introduction to the English version, the editor states that historical truth cannot be
subverted forever and that however hard Dashnag propagandists may try to twist and bury the
truth and glorify the failure of their Independent Armenian Republic, truth must eventually prevail.
He rightfully presents the author as a pillar of the Dashnagtzoutiun. He adds that few were in
a position to know more, nor to express themselves with greater clarity, logic and foresight than
Hovhannes Katchaznouni. (p. 3)
>

>> http://www.turkses.com/issues/ermeni/an_armenian_source_hova nnes_katchaznouni.htm>>

Originally posted by armenian

<http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst373/readings/m elson.html>
That link should answer a lot of questions for you and others. It is written by a NON-Armenian, unlike all your references which are all Turkish sources. The Turkish governments had treated the Armenians pretty well before the reign of Sultan Abdul-Hamid II. He put harsh laws and taxes on Armenians, much heavier than the ones imposed on the Turkish citizens of the Ottoman Empire. Some Armenian groups agitated for change, but it was met with violence, and rather than just wiping out the rebel groups, tens of thousands of non-fighting Armenians were massacred as a result by Ottoman forces as a direct order from Sultan Abdul-Hamid II.

if we are to make a scientific discussion,in my opinion the identity of the author does not matter..you can pay any non-armenian and anty Turkish also to write for your interests..

what is important to me,how much did the author benefit from archives..Because the archives are the only scientific sources of that period we can trust.

Did he put high taxes on the Armenians?Interesting opinion...because he had economy consultants of armenian origin...What is more,his mother is clame to eb an armenian..Interestig point you guys claim..really interesting..

 

Originally posted by Armenian

Yes, Americans relocated the Japanese during WWII, but they gave them adequate supplies of food and water as well as a much better method of transportation.

Just like the Ittihat ve Terakki tried to do...But i admit,the American version of relocation was much more successfull..but we should not forget that their relocation was during the second world war...Technology had already developed a lot after the first world war.

 

Originally posted by armenian

 Its funny how the only people that disagree with these facts are the accused party (Turkey).

No,my history-discussion forumer..There are hundereds of scientists from different countries who object to these allegations..But many of them are still being threatened by Extrme-nationalist armenian organizations....The houses of some of american scholars have already been bombed unfortunately...so sadful in the name of science..

Here is the objectionn by 68 American scientists as a result of their researches..It is the Americans who today researched the ottoman archives most.

Please keep in mind that hundreds of Turks also died of hunger.So it was not a special thing to the armenians..These whould be categorised as situation of war conditions.

 

 

 

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

3-The government considered shelter needings of the relocated armenians

Originally posted by Armenian

Ya, i guess they pitched tents in the middle of the desert for the thousands of Armenians that were on these marches. They CONSIDERED shelter needings, but did they carry them out? The vast majority of evidence says no. A person like you should know that not everything thats written on paper is carried out, especially during a WORLD WAR.

Again, CONSIDERED, never carried out. Even if they did, their absent supplies of food and water never allowed the Armenians to reach this destination.

well,thats your choice and sources on what to belieev..i believe that i have proved the real intention of the relocation.

 

Originally posted by Armenian

Id like to see these pictures. Again, these Turkish victims were not victims of GOVERNMENT ORDER, as the Armenians were. And please dont post pictures of dead Turkish soldiers killed by the Russians or Allies during the war and attempt to call it an Armenian massacre.

These pictures...i cant post all of them here..considering other forumers...

i will only post one picture of atrocity..and i will post those who committed these atrocities..they were not victims of a governent but they were actually victims of extermination intention of those rebellions.

Turkish children and women killed by the Armenians. Some of the women were killed by taking the babies out from their wombs. Subatan, April 25, 1918.
Reference:Massacre Exerted By The Armenian On The Turks During World War I Pictures

These postcards were used as propaganda tools, they show band leaders who killed Muslim Turks in Anatolia.
Reference:Ermeni Mezalimi ve Gerekler

Antranik, the chief of a Band and the Hero of Sasoon. On the flag, the inscription: "He who sacrifies himself for the nation is a lucky man"
Reference: The Armenian Aspirations and Revolutionary Movements

Picture drawn by the Hintchak Branch Committee in Varna in memory of the renowned members of the Hintchak Society and the celebrities of its Revolutionary boards.
Reference: The Armenian Aspirations and Revolutionary Movements

Gang leader Kavafian, one of the troublemakers at Sasun. He is seen here as a Russian officer, which he had been all along - even when he was making trouble in Sasun.
Reference: A Myth Of Terror.

The excavation team of Ataturk University, Deparment of Archeology, Members of Ataturk Research Institute and journalists are standing over the well.
Reference: Trk Ermeni likileri 21. Yzyla Girerken Tarihe Dosta Bak.

The remainings of the Turks found in the excavation made by Ataturk University, Department of Archeology.
Reference: Trk Ermeni likileri 21. Yzyla Girerken Tarihe Dosta Bak.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2004 at 06:01

Those who accuse the Ottoman administration of sending the Armenians to the deserts and not taking care of them forget the fact that the Ottoman Empire couldn't even supply it's own army and most Armenian casualties on the move were from plagues, the Ottoman administration couldn not send in enough medical stuff. Same goes for the Turks.

There were also officers and soldiers who intentionally killed Armenians but they were rather low in number and they were immediately punished by the upper authorities.

There were also bands of Kurds attacking Armenians on the way. Indeed, most of the Armenians killed (claimed to be killed by the Turks) were murdered by Kurdish gangs/bands/groups.

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2004 at 06:52
You can't justify genocide, so don't try.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 08:54

Well-said..it must be a very serious crime...

But what noone can understand is why you had written this here,while both concepts you mention do not exist in this thread...

Ah...how true Dixon was when he said these:

"(The Turk never deigns to explain his own case while) the pro-Armenians always manage to hold the field, appalling the public by incessant reiteration and exaggeration as to the number of victims, and apparently valuing to its full extent the wisdom of the old Eastern proverb give a lie twenty-four hours start, and it will take a hundred years to overtake it." 

C.F. Dixon-Johnson, British author of the 1916 book, "The Armenians."

 

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 15:07

Diplomat, ive read many many pages off of that website over a year ago. The Turkish government has this guy in their back pocket. Turkey funds many researchers to come up with exaggerated facts and altered forms of history, they spend millions of dollars a year trying to deny the genocide, and you want to say "The Turk never deigns to explain his own case"... thats right, he pays others to do it for him . Have you not read the articles which talk about the Turkish government giving money to major American universities such as Princeton to fund Turkish studies, and they choose which professors are going to teach it. That doesnt seem to me like "Turks never designing to explain their own case". Just because they never patrol the streets saying "There was no Genocide" doesnt mean they dont try in other ways. 

At UCLA some time ago, the Turkish Student Body of the school was celebrating their "1.5 year anniversary" on April 24th (commemoration day of Armenian Genocide). Who celebrates a 1.5 year anniversary....and on Armenian Genocide day? You mean to tell me it was just a coincidence? They dont advertise denial of the Genocide because then people will be curious and do the research....they do it in much more suttle ways.

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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 15:55

Trying to justify a genocide with a bunch of pathetic excuses and a supposed counter-genocide? Curse be upon your names Diploface and ihsan.

Those that say "I am sick of discussing this topic", those who try to water down genocide with pathetic excuses, and those who simply ignore that genocide are all guilty of denying genocide.

Ihsan: "There were also officers and soldiers who intentionally killed Armenians but they were rather low in number and they were immediately punished by the upper authorities."

Resembles American goverment's responce to Abu Gharib incident, dosn't it?



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