Yugoslav wars

You lived through the entire war? Where? Being there doesn't make you a neutral, on the contrary.

Es_bih, you said to be born in YU. You are not living in the wreck of her, you are living in the US. It's easy for you to speak about what the "interests" of the inhabitants were, of the bad things that were happening during the communists, and of the good things that will happen to the new states once they manage to get to normality (which is unlikely, IMHO).

The only thing that matters I guess, is that instead of being able to avoid violence, the people of former YU fell prey to a bad leadership that eventually got them into a position of distrust from the other nations of Europe.

Originally posted by Penelope Not to interupt the discussion at hand, but i would just like to ask if any of you were actually born in Yugoslavia, becuase i was born there, to Greek parents.

What part of Yugoslavia, penelope?

I'm not accussing everyone, however, some members of government did support that motion

Originally posted by Spartakus Originally posted by es_bih The government wasn't exactly innocent either, however, yes in the videos there are Greek soldiers in Srebrenica.   You mean paramilitaries. By using the term "soldiers" you imply official involvement of the Hellenic/Greek army and State, which never happened.

Not to interupt the discussion at hand, but i would just like to ask if any of you were actually born in Yugoslavia, becuase i was born there, to Greek parents.

1. - Interests that is a hard term to define when looking back at the whole conflict. Interests changed forms many times within one faction, were similar between some, and some different across the board. You had moderates who wanted peaceful breakup, their interest was independence, they lobbied the populace in referendums to vote for independence from Yugoslavia. Hardliners and nationalists wanted monolith super-states composed of the one ethnic group they represented. In BiH you had a mix of religious backgrounds that joined together (Bosniak/ Bosnian Muslim being the majority) to defend, and form the independent republic of Bosnia i Herzegovina. A Serb from Serbia did not have the same interests necessarily as one from Croatia, or BiH. Some did some wanted Serbia the way it is, some were under the sway of Milosevic, and yet others looked back to Tito. Same for the others, Bosniaks in Sandzak(Serbia) sympathized with the situation in BiH, but did not physically break off from Serbia proper. It is not absolutely necessary to draw any further borders, it is necessary to dissolve some of the fictional ones created post war  such as the Federation *Bosniak, Croat*  and RS *Serb*. Such entities within the country create more friction, not to mention are not well represented, Bosniaks alone are probably above half the population, and Croats about 17%, but yet co-jointly only have administrative local control of 51% of the country, Serbs 30% control half of the country, yet are about a third of the population. Such borders are slowly but surely being dissolved, in Croatia there need to be movements to integrate Serb exiles back into their homes, and into the social infrastructure, in Serbia the Kosovo situation needs to be solved. There were distinct groups facing each other in the series of wars, however, as well there were numerous continuous co-operations, example: the commander of the BiH armed forces during the war was a Bosnian Serb, etc. The lines were not as monolith.

Originally posted by Yugoslav What do you PERSONALLY think of the wars that happened in Croatia and Bosnia (unavoidable, stupid, whatsa?)

Of course they were avoidable.  There are plenty of examples of serious historical grievances not being elevated into armed conflict, such as those between Poland and the Ukraine, as well as Hungarian irredentism.

Thanks for the clarification, obviously I don't have my facts right. In the case of BH, there are many Muslims there, as well as in Kosovo. I think the Bosnians received an unfair deal of retribution, especially since they were "sandwiched" between the Croatian and Serb interests. Sad really, since traditionally Balkan Muslims are not fundamendalists and have lived in peace with their neighbors.    

Or an example of what can happen when pre-existing deep religious and national divides resurface during times of crisis. The situation in my oppinion also provides a good study case about  the evils of extreme nationalism; unfortunately some in the wider balkan area still retain much of that coupled with a healthy dose of militarism and shody politics. I will reiterate here my controversial oppinion that one of the cornerstones for stability in the Balkans is the ethnic homogeneity of each of the member states; this, in the name of the stability to follow, should be enforced if neccessary through mandatory population exchanges (outdated option perhaps and totaly against EU--German/USA plans for the area) that will ultimately eliminate ethnic minorities within other states' borders. Tough love but we're seing the alternative in the present tenuous situation in the Balkans which is bound only to be made worst by the addition of ethnically doubious and unsastainable entites such as Kosovo and Bulgarian/Albanian "Macedonia".   

A Romanian vs. a Hungarian is devoid of the passion involved in Christian vs. Muslim, a very different type of conflict. The argument about Maramures and Bucovina is strictly over territory between two otherwise friendly and similar(?) cultures that also share a common religion (Catholicism). Christian vs. Muslim is a conflict of ideologies and  belief systems, as well as established historical animosity that involves an extensive trail  of blood shed on all sides. This is not to say that Christian/Muslim cannot live peacefully in trading coexistence though which both profit (bullion usually burries the hatchet). As a matter of fact, Christians and Muslims have lived longer together than they have fought against each other. But during times of crisis the conflict is likely to reach explosive proportions faster and last longer than any other (in the Balkans).    


Edited by konstantinius - 13-May-2007 at 18:40