One of the earliest instances of civilizations with democracy was found in republics in ancient India, which were established sometime before the 6th century BC, and prior to the birth of Gautama Buddha. These republics were known as Maha Janapadas, and among these states, Vaishali (in what is now Bihar, India) was the world's first republic. The democratic Sangha, Gana and Panchayat systems were used in some of these republics; the Panchayat system is still used today in Indian villages. Later during the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC, the Greeks wrote about the Sabarcae and Sambastai states in what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan, whose "form of government was democratic and not regal" according to Greek scholars at the time.[2] Another example was Gopala's rise to power by democratic election in Bengal, which was documented by the Tibetan historian Taranath.[3][4]
??
Its from Wiki, so I don't know how reliable it is.
Apparently the Ancient Sumerian states also had a democracy?
Edited by Bulldog - 17-Mar-2007 at 14:56
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Yes, Greeks didn't invented slavery but they didn't abolish it either.
I think Classical Greece (or Rome) was a place very much like the U.S. Confederacy. A place where the upper class landlords have a democracy between themselves, where the poors were excluded from the club, and were a mass of slaves had to work all they long to mantain it.
So when people say they admire Rome or Greek political systems, they usually forget or downplay this another disgusting aspect of those societies.
It is curious that's also true with Britain's Magna Carta, where the term "Free Men" mean landlords. The serves were not free-people, because they were proletarians, and as such absolutely excluded of having a saying in any matter.
Zagros- By the same line of reasoning you could argue that Federalism and indirect slavery through taxation in most western societies is a parallel to the ancient Iranian society
You could but taxation is a necessary facet in any meaningful political and economic system and, the vast majority of people do not mind paying it so long as they see tangible civil benefits for the common good. That is not to say I agree with monarchy or imperialism, quite the contrary. The greatest comparative model to the Hakhamanesh empire is the US (within its own bounds; out-with it is more like Rome). How many US citizens feel bound by the shackles of slavery through taxation and see it as oppression?
Yes, Greeks didn't invented slavery but they didn't abolish it either.
I think Classical Greece (or Rome) was a place very much like the U.S. Confederacy. A place where the upper class landlords have a democracy between themselves, where the poors were excluded from the club, and were a mass of slaves had to work all they long to mantain it.
So when people say they admire Rome or Greek political systems, they usually forget or downplay this another disgusting aspect of those societies.
It is curious that's also true with Britain's Magna Carta, where the term "Free Men" mean landlords. The serves were not free-people, because they were proletarians, and as such absolutely excluded of having a saying in any matter.
Pinguin
I don't think any of us is either over-praising those systems, or downplaying the fact that they held slaves. Here again, we tend to project contemporary and colloquial views and values onto social models that are centuries removed from our reality.
Magna Carta, as you say, applied to the Barons (mostly Normans) in dispute with the king's authority. They were concerned with their privileges and rights. Anglo-Saxon peasants were a population that was politically mute. The times of the fifth century B.C., of 1215 A.D. and of 2007 can't be judged by the same measure.
And just a comment on the American South: There were about 2 1/2 times the number of Whites as opposed to Blacks in 1860. In the agricultural South, almost all those Whites made their living on their own freehold farms. I don't know the demographics of classical Greece, but I think the great mass of the population was similar....not movers and shakers, but free men engaging in farming and trades. It has changed over 25 centuries.
Slaves existed; they don't now unless it is in the porno world.
One of the earliest instances of civilizations with democracy was found in republics in ancient India, which were established sometime before the 6th century BC, and prior to the birth of Gautama Buddha. These republics were known as Maha Janapadas, and among these states, Vaishali (in what is now Bihar, India) was the world's first republic. The democratic Sangha, Gana and Panchayat systems were used in some of these republics; the Panchayat system is still used today in Indian villages. Later during the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC, the Greeks wrote about the Sabarcae and Sambastai states in what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan, whose "form of government was democratic and not regal" according to Greek scholars at the time.[2] Another example was Gopala's rise to power by democratic election in Bengal, which was documented by the Tibetan historian Taranath.[3][4] ??
Its from Wiki, so I don't know how reliable it is.
Apparently the Ancient Sumerian states also had a democracy?
Of course Greeks were not the only ones. Constantine's post explains it well.
Yes, Greeks didn't invented slavery but they didn't abolish it either.
I think Classical Greece (or Rome) was a place very much like the U.S. Confederacy. A place where the upper class landlords have a democracy between themselves, where the poors were excluded from the club, and were a mass of slaves had to work all they long to mantain it.
So when people say they admire Rome or Greek political systems, they usually forget or downplay this another disgusting aspect of those societies.
It is curious that's also true with Britain's Magna Carta, where the term "Free Men" mean landlords. The serves were not free-people, because they were proletarians, and as such absolutely excluded of having a saying in any matter.
I'm tired today so I'll answer using your words from another thread:
Originally posted by pinguin
I believe the key to understand the development of the West is in the development of the alphabet carried to Greece, and by the phylosophers of Ionia, Tales, Pytagoras, et al., all of whom created the modern world from scrath. Nowhere else those events happened, but given the right mechanics, they could have repeated.
"Eat your words" you say . However, I was talking there about science and tech, not politics, anyways.
Yes. Greeks inspired the Democratic system in the West. I was just pointing out the "Founding Fathers" of the United States had other souce of ideas, as well. A working democracy they could observe in action, alive and not theoretical. It was called the Iroquois Confederation.
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