Greek democracy: the Basis for Western

Adopted cradle? Thats a confusing statement.

 Correcting myself " Zagros is right" I meant SPARTAKUS is right. I disagree with the viewpoint Zagros seems to have, though I understand and respect his basic concern about not trying to glorify a slave-based society.

I also believe that this claim of inheritance is false, it has just been a way for Western historians over the centuries to fill the void in their civilisation of any meaningful civilised ancient history - just another, more subtle, volume of the Nordic Aryan theory which, rather than creating complete fairy tails spins historical facts.

Edited by Zagros - 16-Mar-2007 at 06:49

Originally posted by EDWYN And who are we to say that the ancient hellenes didn't have TRUE democracy? After all, they invented the word.....maybe we should come up a  definition of our own.  How about Egalitariocracy?

V�ldigt bra sagt!
Well said!

You can't redefine a definition that is already defined.

i do agree with Zagros's (edit: and kapikulu's ^) point on inheritance. I dont think the west inherited anything from Greece, they adopted and adapted it and called it their own. i don't see a linear progression from Greek to western. Most of the Greek writings/ideas were lost in the west and only re-introduced from the Muslims because they appreciated and preserved the greek learning earlier on.

We do have more of an affinity to other Med's and to our east (like Iranians) rather than the northern Europeans. Just because they use our concepts and learn our history doesn't make them like us. The definitions of West vs East is wrong and does nothing for the distinct Mediterranean region + any related adjacent regions in Africa and M/E.

Originally posted by Zagros Well, yea... Why else did I make this thread?  Citizens = Westerners non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.   = Go out of line and you're screwed

I think however this comparison of the greek slave = everyone else is misguided when it is related to democracy. That would be best undertsood in terms of an economic rather than political theory. I prefer to use Marxist critique on history to understand that evolution, if it can be argued. Either way such servitude did not originate from the Greeks in particular, but from human condition.






Edited by Leonidas - 16-Mar-2007 at 08:48

I think we flert wrongly with the words...

I believe that Zagros means that the west did not copy/clone the greeks like the romans did in a certain degree.

The inheritance is however a correct word to use.

What is inheritance?

- hereditary succession to a title or property that which is inherited;
- any attribute or immaterial possession that is inherited from ancestors;
- a way to form new instances of something using terms that have already been defined.  Modern democracy is a derived form, that took over attributes and behaviour of the pre-existing system, which is referred as a basic democratic system or an ancestor to the current democratic system.

So what did we do? We took the basis of democracy and changed its attributes while time passed. We added more attributes and formed it in a way it suits the society of today.

On the other side...Haven't the west copied the rationalism of the Greek philosophers? How do you people debate in this forum? What are the rules of this community we belong to?


Edited by Flipper - 16-Mar-2007 at 10:22

Originally posted by Zagros The Greek city states were sustained by a slave economy were they not?  Western living standards are maintained by what?  Cheap labour and materials in "developing" countries.  The political agenda of the West is to maintain the status quo so far as possible in order to sustain its extravagance and keep its own populations numbed by crap TV, video games and other inane forms of entertainment.

i understand the parallels, though your confusing  democracy with imperialism-capitalism. The two are not indivisibly linked.

Capitalism comes out of western Europe's industrialization and from more recent concepts that have nothing directly to do with Greece. Democracy was conceived by the Athenians for its citizens and this concept was adopted by the west. The only link is the west but not concepts themselves.

western imperialism is just another imperialism( + capitalism), but they all extend power and trade, and create winners and losers.

Edit: imperialism and democracy are ethically opposed.




Edited by Leonidas - 16-Mar-2007 at 10:46

Greeks had a form of government which suited them and which bought them sucess.

Originally posted by Miller [QUOTE=Hellios]   A main factor in this is the size. It would be much harder if not impossible to have direct democracy in an empire or bigger state. City-states by nature are a closer environment.

I agree 100%. I'm surprised nobody mentioned it before.