Greek democracy: the Basis for Western

When we talk about freedom in Ancient Hellas,we must understand that we talk about the freedom of Ancient  Hellen citizens ,and not of the whole population.Ancient Hellens themselves never said that all people in Ancient Hellas were free.What they did say was that Ancient Hellen citizens were free.Not all people in Ancient Hellas were actually citizens.We are talking about citizenship.

We must also understand,that slavery was sth normal and natural in Ancient Hellenic society.What i want to say is,that what we ,today,consider as freedom it's not the same as Ancient Hellens,in specific,as well as all the Ancient nations,in general, considered it to be.

Edited by Spartakus - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:10

Originally posted by Zagros The cradle for Western values and democracy.  So can a parallel be drawn also with the slavery principles of said Greek city states?  Democracy for the elite, oppression and servitude against others?

That is relevant...With those standards, Brittain (just an example) has not been a democracy that long. But they claimed to be democratic while people in their empire could not change Brittain at all.

Everything related to Democracy is relevant basically. However, if you speek about the western world and take the democracy as an example then hmm...you haven't digged that deep.

Just open a book of yours talking about science....Then have a look on Aristotles for example. It is shocking...


Edited by Flipper - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:58

This has nothing to do with 300 or with today's Greeks and I don't know why anyone assumes it does -  it has everything to do with a sentence I read in an article and today's "Western civilisation", as ascribed by politicians, journalists and certain historians in the UK, the US and elsewhere. 

Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 16:57

Originally posted by Spartakus I just wanted to clarify some details.This topic contains words such as "freedom" and "citizenship",which had difference meanings in the past.If we cannot understand that,we cannot proceed to a proper discussion concerning today.

Originally posted by Zagros   Citizens = Westerners non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.   = Go out of line and you're screwed

Originally posted by New User Originally posted by Zagros   Citizens = Westerners non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.   = Go out of line and you're screwed   Saudi Arabia , Kuwait? We don't screw them.

Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 18:11

Well if the perception is that the root of Western Democracy is Greece, then democracy and this lifestyle requires sub-ordinates to prop it up, much like that of Greece and this is where I draw the parallel.  They can't just claim to have taken the good things from ancient Greece and boast it proudly while neglecting the dark side of our existence.

If you use the analogy of Westerners being citizens and elsewhere being slaves of somesort, you are perhaps ignoring the suffering of certain people.

I'd suggest that Multinational Corporations are perhaps citizens? Citizens of the nations are slaves and the people outside are simply barbarians who are disregarded completely.

But in my opinion, no such analogy is really possible. Within individual states perhaps. Switzerland is a good example, as are some Scandaniavian nations. I think the same could be said of companies who do stuff like work outside of the country - hiring people in other nations to the advantage of another nations economy. An increasing craft is using migrant labour and giving them no rights, Romania is now using this tactic.