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Greek democracy: the Basis for Western

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek democracy: the Basis for Western
    Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 12:56
....the ancient Greek city-states, seen as the cradle for Western values and democracy.
 
 
The cradle for Western values and democracy.  So can a parallel be drawn also with the slavery principles of said Greek city states?  Democracy for the elite, oppression and servitude against others?  This model is clearly visible in the world today where in the West we are largely free but oppress and perpetuate the poverty of other nations and any deviance from this norm is punishable by economic and military sanctions.
 
What is you view?


Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:24
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:04

When we talk about freedom in Ancient Hellas,we must understand that we talk about the freedom of Ancient  Hellen citizens ,and not of the whole population.Ancient Hellens themselves never said that all people in Ancient Hellas were free.What they did say was that Ancient Hellen citizens were free.Not all people in Ancient Hellas were actually citizens.We are talking about citizenship.

 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:07

Well, yea... Why else did I make this thread? 

Citizens = Westerners
non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.
 
= Go out of line and you're screwed


Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:08
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:09
We must also understand,that slavery was sth normal and natural in Ancient Hellenic society.What i want to say is,that what we ,today,consider as freedom it's not the same as Ancient Hellens,in specific,as well as all the Ancient nations,in general, considered it to be.

Edited by Spartakus - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:10
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:22
Look, this is an analogy - the context of the age is irrelevant - the question is are the same brutal concepts of that age also being followed today by those who claim foundation from that culture?
 
Jeezuz...


Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:24
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:56
Originally posted by Zagros

The cradle for Western values and democracy.  So can a parallel be drawn also with the slavery principles of said Greek city states?  Democracy for the elite, oppression and servitude against others? 


That is relevant...With those standards, Brittain (just an example) has not been a democracy that long. But they claimed to be democratic while people in their empire could not change Brittain at all.

Everything related to Democracy is relevant basically. However, if you speek about the western world and take the democracy as an example then hmm...you haven't digged that deep.

Just open a book of yours talking about science....Then have a look on Aristotles for example. It is shocking...


Edited by Flipper - 14-Mar-2007 at 13:58


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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by Zagros

What is you view?
 
It's that we shouldn't let some American fantasy type action movie cause friction between Iranian & Greek members.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 16:55

This has nothing to do with 300 or with today's Greeks and I don't know why anyone assumes it does -  it has everything to do with a sentence I read in an article and today's "Western civilisation", as ascribed by politicians, journalists and certain historians in the UK, the US and elsewhere. 

It occured to me that the slave based ancient economy has a relevant equivalent today.
 
PS: ther eis no friction between Iranian and Greek members.  I got annoyed at spartakus because he went off the intended rails of what this thread was supposed to be about, twice.


Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 16:57
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 17:10
I just wanted to clarify some details.This topic contains words such as "freedom" and "citizenship",which had difference meanings in the past.If we cannot understand that,we cannot proceed to a proper discussion concerning today.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 17:20
Originally posted by Spartakus

I just wanted to clarify some details.This topic contains words such as "freedom" and "citizenship",which had difference meanings in the past.If we cannot understand that,we cannot proceed to a proper discussion concerning today.
 
Correct; slave labour existed in most of the ancient world, but direct democracy for citizens didn't.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 17:34
Yes, but coupled with democracy and freedom for everyone else (i.e. a right to vote?).  It seems that the model is very relevant today as it is followed, rather subtly by the Western bloc. 
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 17:43
Originally posted by Zagros

 

Citizens = Westerners
non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.
 
= Go out of line and you're screwed
 
Saudi Arabia , Kuwait? We don't screw them.
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 17:51
Greek city states - slavery = Switzerland.
Most modern democracies, western or otherwise are nothing like the Athenian model.
I wonder how easy it would have been for the UK to go to war in Iraq if the decision was made by direct democracy?
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:09
Originally posted by New User

Originally posted by Zagros

 

Citizens = Westerners
non-Citizens/slaves = everyone else.
 
= Go out of line and you're screwed
 
Saudi Arabia , Kuwait? We don't screw them.
 
Oh they do get screwed, just not the elites - 40% of their oil revenues go to the companies that pump it (western), 60% goes to the government which then buys Western goods at inflated prices and invests in Western countries.
 
Now, if they were to go out of line...  I am sure something would start to stir up.  Just remember what happened when Iran nationalised its oil in 1953.
 
Cwyr, I am not comparing the systems of democracy.  This only an illusion of democracy anyway since we only get the choice really between one idiot or another - idiots who really don't have our itnerests at heart.
 
Some more analogies.
 
Saudis etc = Protectorates (ie) slaves
Iranians = not part of the civilised world (and Blair has used those words)  (ie) Barbarians
West = defending its freedoms (really meaning imposing itself on every corner of the world)
 
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 14-Mar-2007 at 18:11
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:15
Brother Zagros, we can debate ironies between slave labour in the ancient world and Greek direct democracy, but trying to draw a parallel with present-day "democracies" is met with the fact that that present-day so called "democracies" are not direct democracies at all.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:21

Well if the perception is that the root of Western Democracy is Greece, then democracy and this lifestyle requires sub-ordinates to prop it up, much like that of Greece and this is where I draw the parallel.  They can't just claim to have taken the good things from ancient Greece and boast it proudly while neglecting the dark side of our existence.

Imagine if people of every country lived as we do, things would not be all that great when we have to fork out for goods at prices which would seem extortionate at today's rates.  we would have to settle for less, a lot less.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:22
Brother Hellios :D
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:23
If you use the analogy of Westerners being citizens and elsewhere being slaves of somesort, you are perhaps ignoring the suffering of certain people.

I'd suggest that Multinational Corporations are perhaps citizens? Citizens of the nations are slaves and the people outside are simply barbarians who are disregarded completely.

But in my opinion, no such analogy is really possible. Within individual states perhaps. Switzerland is a good example, as are some Scandaniavian nations. I think the same could be said of companies who do stuff like work outside of the country - hiring people in other nations to the advantage of another nations economy. An increasing craft is using migrant labour and giving them no rights, Romania is now using this tactic.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 19:41
Originally posted by Hellios

Brother Zagros, we can debate ironies between slave labour in the ancient world and Greek direct democracy, but trying to draw a parallel with present-day "democracies" is met with the fact that that present-day so called "democracies" are not direct democracies at all.
 
 
Correct.  Present day representative governments are REPUBLICS.  Democracies relate to the elites of city-states of 2500 years ago.
 
The economic relalities of 2500 years ago most probably would not have accomodated a social structure that did not include slave labor as an important part of its production capability.
 
We can get all upset about that, and impose modern sensibilities on the Greeks, or we can accept that social realities 25 centuries ago were different, and just get over it.
 
The conflicts of the Greeks with the Persians must take into account that the armies of the Greek city-states were almost all free men, where the armies of the Persian kings were, to a great extent, composed of slave soldiers.
 
Victor Davis Hanson discusses this in his studies of the Greeks and their response to the westward expansion of Persian imperial conquest.
 
  


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 15-Mar-2007 at 09:50
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 21:07
....the ancient Greek city-states, seen as the cradle for Western values and democracy.
 
Yes, an "adopted" cradle.
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
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