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Not Ancient Greeks nor Romans

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Not Ancient Greeks nor Romans
    Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 21:42
I would like to post this item from "Ottoman Power thread".
We got off subject in that thread, yet this topic could be interesting from the anthropological point of view.

As I pointed out in another forum not a single modern state should claim any direct descendance from the Antiquity. During the migrations of peoples period, all antiquity states  were overran. Most modern Europeans are descendants of Germans or Slavs with few islands of Celts left. We can say that  there is a minority that doesn't belong to Slavic or Germanic descendance. They are Ungro-Finns(Hungarian, Finns), Balts (Lithuania and Latvia) and Bulgares. This applies to Greeks as well. I believe they have a lot more in common with Longobards than ancient Hellens. When newcomers interracted with local population, often local population had a much stronger culture and affected language of newcomers.
Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians. Both have a pretty misterious past.

Christscrusader wrote:

What proof do you have that the Greeks are more Lombard"ish"? Of course there have been miragtions, but more than the Ancient Greeks themselves? the mainland of Greece was lost and regained alot during the Byzantine Empires time, and was never really lost up until the end. THe Lombards did not control the Greek Penninsula for very long, and a small population settled there. Of course present day greeks are mixed a bit, but would you then consider them a slavic or germandic people? I dont think i agree with that.



Unsettling fact is that most of present day Europeans came from somewhere else in the beginning of first millenium CE. Europe was able to reconnect to Greek and Roman antique cultures and we can all feel descendants of these cultures.

Proof of what I am saying is that most of people living in Italy or Greece do not match physical descriptions of Romans or Greeks of Antiquity. Longobards were Germanic tribe that overran both Greece and Italy. What was Northern Greece was overran by Slavs. These were migrations I am familiar with, there may been others.
There are some enclaves in Greece and, suprisingly, in Georgia in which one may find people more directly related to Ancient Greeks. But these are really small minority.
There is a dark side to these claims as well. History was abused in Europe to justify a lot of nasty behavior. Just take look at Yougoslavia.


It could be interesting to open discussion just focusing on migration of various groups.





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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 21:53
Not true. The genetics of the populations of modern Europe match 99% with the Europeans from ancient times. About 80% of the population of Europe is here since the palaeolithic times, and the other 20% is here since the Neolithic.

The physical descriptions don't match because the looks of people
vary due to sexual and natural selection, nutrition and many other things.

There's no place for discussion and different views about this, it's fact.
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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 03:58

Scythian wrote:Not true. The genetics of the populations of modern Europe match 99% with the Europeans from ancient times. About 80% of the population of Europe is here since the palaeolithic times, and the other 20% is here since the Neolithic.

Your thesis would be OK if the word Europeans is replaced by IE. They'd spreaded to the East then wave by wave were coming back. Say, Visigoths +Alans + Celts +Romans still remain IE. And so on.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 04:40

Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Proof of what I am saying is that most of people living in Italy or Greece do not match physical descriptions of Romans or Greeks of Antiquity.

 

And which are your sources if I may ask?

Because all data corresponds to the opposite!

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  Quote Hellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 06:46

cavalry4ever

>>Proof of what I am saying is that most of people living in Italy or Greece do not match physical descriptions of Romans or Greeks of Antiquity.<<

I can't or rather won't comment "modern-day" Italians but all genetic studies prove that the population of Hellas does match 95% (if not higher) the "physical description" of the ancients.

Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrate
that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence, Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved. (Falmayer is the main supporter of the Slavic influence theory).

Here are some selected parts:

For the supporters of the Turkish rape theory that suggests non-"pure" Hellinic population:

The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.

Racial continuity:

J. Lawrence Angel sorted Greek skeletal tendencies into six arbitrary morphological types, including several sub-varieties. These were not races, but rather [1]:

Types are entirely aribitrary creations from sorting of individuals. Genetically determined traits will recombine and re-form in each new generation largely at random so that types cannot express these new individualities adequately, only schematically. At best they give a preliminary overview of change.

Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages. Thus, he emphasized the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically [2]:

Racial continuity in Greece is striking.

More on racial continuity:

THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS

(1961, 1964, 1968, 1988)

(The book is sold out, but soon will be republished).

Four successive editions, constantly enriched with new data, are edited concerning the Anthropological - Ethnogenetic study of the Greek population. The basis of this work is Aris N. Poulianos dissertation, which took place in the University of Moscow, under the supervision of the famous professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz. The research was based on the study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face, skin colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants (after 1949 civil war) in the f. Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of their low dispersion) the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences. Despite the occasional influences and limited migrations of populations, the anthropological research has shown that the population of Greece is basically native and that the contemporary Greeks are descendants of the ancient peoples who resided in the Greek peninsula.


For all those that believe in the TWISTED theory of all ancient Hellines being blone and blue-eyed. (Nordic theory)

Proof in literature:
There are numerous references to brunets in ancient mythology and literature, e.g., the Muses, Poseidon, Alcmena, Theseus, Zeus, Dionysos and Odysseus are described as possessing either dark hair or dark eyes. Hercules, the Greeks' favorite hero is described as dark (melanan), hook-nosed (grupon) by Dicaearchus (Clement of Alexandria, "Protreptic to the Greeks" 2.30.7). Hercules was also proverbially melampugos (having a black behind) as indicative of his bravery, as opposed to pugargos (having a white behind), a coward . Irwin, E., 1974, Colour Terms in Greek Poetry, Hakkert, Toronto

Artistic Evidence:
Greek art furnishes important information about the racial type of the ancient Hellenes. Coon in observed that the beauty ideal of a straight nose and a lithe body was borrowed from Minoan Crete which was undisputably peopled by Mediterraneans.The characteristic nose-forehead continuity of idealistic depictions of gods and heroes is more typical of Mediterraneans than Nordics , although it was rare for ancient Greeks as it is for modern ones. Angel observes though, that his Dinaric-Mediterranean (Type F) morphological type approaches this ideal, in contrast to the Nordic-Iranian (Type D) in which the nasal bone projects at a sharp angle with the frontal bone.

And my favourite:

The following article, published in 1939 in American Anthropologist shows how the Nordicist tendencies of the National Socialist regime affected historical instruction in Germany. Nordicist theories were actually viewed with scorn among many educated Germans, and have been abandoned altogether by science. The neo-Nordicists of today continue in essence to plagiarize the Nordicists of the past, in the absence of any scientific evidence for the alleged primacy of the Nordic race:

American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 36, No. 1. (Jan. - Mar., 1934), pp. 139-141.

The alleged "Sub-Saharan" theory

In numerous recent studies, the mitochondrial DNA of Greeks was examined and was found to be predominantly Caucasoid with only infrequent presence of "erratic" sequences from non-Caucasoid sources. Mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population.

The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

The whole acticles can be posted if asked to.



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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 08:09
Originally posted by Rava

Your thesis would be OK if the word Europeans is replaced by IE. They'd spreaded to the East then wave by wave were coming back. Say, Visigoths +Alans + Celts +Romans still remain IE. And so on.



IE is just a language which spread some 4000 years ago. Europe is populated much longer than that. 40.000-10.000 years ago.

If you don't think a language can change without a population change,
then please take a look at Ireland. Their Gaelic language was replaced by English,
and very recently. While no mixing or population change, or genocide took place.


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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 09:15
Originally posted by Scythian

Not true. The genetics of the populations of modern Europe match 99% with the Europeans from ancient times. About 80% of the population of Europe is here since the palaeolithic times, and the other 20% is here since the Neolithic.


Wasn't it the chimp whose genetics matched the humans 98.7%?  I'm thinking that less than a percent, even half of a percent would be enough to make a distinction in humans.

[ur]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-04/aaft-uoa04040 2.php[/url]


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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 09:30
@Hellinas:

The haplogroups they refer to as sub-saharan are in fact
Middle-Eastern, with high current frequency in Ethiopia and Somalia.
( Y-chromosome haplogroups brought there by invaders from the ME ).

These Haplogroups in the Balkans are also of ME origin, but came
into the Balkans some 12.000-8000 years ago. This is known because
there are certain sub-clades which are Balkan-only.
For a Y-haplo sub-clade to evolve into a distinct subclade, it takes some 12.000 years.

I tested my Y, and the result is E3b-alpha. That's a local Balkanoid variant, 95% of it's body is in the Balkans, the rest 5% exists around Europe, in Anatolia, and through the middle-east, around the places where Alexander's armies ventured.

There is for example an entire population of E3b-alpha people in Northern Egypt.

The other subclades of E3b are found among Berbers, left over from neolithic migrations, around the Middle-East etc.
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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 09:33
Originally posted by Kubrat

Originally posted by Scythian

Not true. The genetics of the populations of modern Europe match 99% with the Europeans from ancient times. About 80% of the population of Europe is here since the palaeolithic times, and the other 20% is here since the Neolithic.


Wasn't it the chimp whose genetics matched the humans 98.7%?  I'm thinking that less than a percent, even half of a percent would be enough to make a distinction in humans.

[ur]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-04/aaft-uoa04040 2.php[/url]


You're babbling nonsense. I'm speaking of genetic lineages, you're speaking about popular science genetic similarity between species.

Human DNA is around 80% same with potatoes, but that's absolutely beside the point.

The Y-chromosomal lineages which exist in Europe have survived here in Europe
for tens of thousands of years. If there were records kept, you could trace your ancestry back to a very ancient past, through the Y lineages.

Read up on Y and mtDNA haplogroups, and then come back, and we can discuss.
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  Quote Hellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 10:23

Scythian

To be honest genetics really isn't my field of expertise, I am actually just starting on this but have found alot of reading material. So based on this material this is what I've found : (any corrections and reading suggestions will be appreciated)

Haplogroup E3b cluster alpha is found in the Balkans, but Hellas is part of the Balkans and Hellines have the highest frequency of E3b (40-50% in the Peloponnese). It cannot substantiate "Slavic" admixture, because it represents the indigenous (pre-Slavic) population of the Balkans, and not the Proto-Slavic population. Indeed, E3b is almost absent in the northern Slavs, which again indicates that it was mostly absent in the Proto-Slavs.

cavalry4ever

>>Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians. Both have a pretty misterious past.<<

Beside the very well supported arguments that point to a Caucasus origin for the Albanians, genetics do help us come to similar conclusions of "non-purity".         ;  I think Scythian will cover this better than I do but the very fact that the Albanians have the highest percentage of Haplogroups E-M78* and E-M78a that are mostly found in both North and South Africa do prove exactly the same.



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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 10:29
Hellinas,
This is a very good article (your first post above) and may turn into a very interesting thread.

I do agree that Nordic stuff is just a nonsense, but I thought that original Hellens had brown hair (with all variations) as opposed to charcoal black.
Your DNA study are interesting, but may have a weakness in the fact that all Europeans are fairly closely related and color of hair or eyes would not show as a large difference. On other hand there is a logic there, because of the fact that resulting language remained Greek suggests that newcomers may had insufficient numbers to change mix of the population.
Are there any other interpretations of these studies?

I always had problem with the Soviet studies. They managed to screw as much history as Nazis did and some countries are still recovering from it.
It would be interesting to correlate these studies with migration path of various peoples.
Also, I am interested about history of two truly ancient European peoples: Basques and Albanians. Are there some new serious books describing their origin?



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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 11:05
The basques are just the descedants of pre-neolithic Europe, their relative geographic isolation meant they kept their language, whilst other languages spread and flourished around them.
Geneticly, they are not that distinct from their neighbours AFAIK.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 15:13
Originally posted by Cywr

The basques are just the descedants of pre-neolithic Europe, their relative geographic isolation meant they kept their language, whilst other languages spread and flourished around them.
Geneticly, they are not that distinct from their neighbours AFAIK.


However there is interesting difference between Bsques and their neighbors. If you look at blood groups, most of people has RH positive blood. Highest concentration in Europe of RH negative O type is among Basques. This would show that they have very little in common with their neighbors.

From articles I am reading, it seems that mtDNA (mitochondrial) studies ares not very reliable to determine origines of diverse ethnic groups. This is because all these groups in Europe are very closely related.




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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 18:45
@Cavalry, the percentage of RH-negative is highest among Basques,
it's not substantially lower than among neighbouring nations, in fact it's just  a few percent lower. Meaning, they ARE related to their neihgbours. All peoples are.

btw. Genetics are far more accurate than bloodgroups.

@Helinas: The fact that I'm E3b means that I'm not Slavic from my paternal lineage.
I'm paternally an indigenous Balkanoid, but that also means that some of my ancestors in the distant past adopted Slavic as their own language.

E3b is pretty common in Montenegro.
These Y-lineages show only male ancestry, and are good for tracing migrations in the past, since their mutation rate is slow, and these lineages don't mix, meaning that
ancient corpses can carry the same Y-haplotype as you do.
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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 19:33
Scythian, no need to tell me I'm babbling nonsense , my field of expertise obviously isn't genetics. 

Btw, you're not the first Serbian I've seen using "genetic lineages" to support that claim.  You aren't the aadmin from Illyria forums are you?
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  Quote Hellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 20:39

Scythian

>>but that also means that some of my ancestors in the distant past adopted Slavic as their own language.<<

Now, I'm lost, sorry but just can't follow.

What does adopting Slavic as their language have to do with genetics, and since the Haplogroups E-M78* and E-M78a are found in Africa and as you said Y linages follow males and the mutation rate is slow. Isn't this the proof needed to come to the conclusion of the "non-purity" of the Albanian people and thus reject what cavalry4ever said?

>>Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians<<

Kubrat
Good arguments can be found all over the net, all you have to do is search in the right place.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 21:58
However there is interesting difference between Bsques and their neighbors. If you look at blood groups, most of people has RH positive blood. Highest concentration in Europe of RH negative O type is among Basques. This would show that they have very little in common with their neighbors.


Aside from the fact that RH negative is found elswhere (slightly lower percentages just means a little bit more outside genetic influence), Y chromosone research has also linked Basques to peoples along the atlantic, from Spain all the way up to Ireland, again suggesting a common ancestry in the distant past, presumed to be a pre-neolithic connection.

From articles I am reading, it seems that mtDNA (mitochondrial) studies ares not very reliable to determine closeness of diverse ethnic groups. It has a very high mutation rate and all Europeans are too closely related.


Obviously not been reading very much.
mtDNA mutates at a near constant rate, you can almost set your clocks with it, thus making it an indispensable tool both for tracing ancestry, and calculating when splits between groups could have occured. Its more accurate than merely comparing blood groups (not that blood groups are useless, idealy you use a bit of everything to create the full picture).
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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 22:37
Originally posted by Kubrat

Scythian, no need to tell me I'm babbling nonsense , my field of expertise obviously isn't genetics. 

Btw, you're not the first Serbian I've seen using "genetic lineages" to support that claim.  You aren't the aadmin from Illyria forums are you?


Nope. I don't even post there.

What does my use of data about genetics have to do with me being a Serb?

It's by far the most advanced tool for determining past events, if you don't like it,
you're missing out.




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  Quote Scythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 22:44
Originally posted by Hellinas

Now, I'm lost, sorry but just can't follow.


I belong to a Slavic ethnicity, but my Y-lineage is local Balkanoid,
thus, present here some 10.000 years before the Slavs ever arrived.


What does adopting Slavic as their language have to do with genetics, and since the Haplogroups E-M78* and E-M78a are found in Africa and as you said Y linages follow males and the mutation rate is slow. Isn't this the proof needed to come to the conclusion of the "non-purity" of the Albanian people and thus reject what cavalry4ever said?
>>Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians<<

Now you lost me.

I explained how the various haplogroups entered Europe. Some did some 40.000 years ago, others did later, but nobody came less than 8000 years ago.

The Albanians are of the same genetic lineages as the rest of the Balkans,
just like the Baques are similar to their neighbours.
 
No modern nation is 'older' than anyone else. Languages and nationalities change, but populations remain.


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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 22:47
Originally posted by Cywr



Obviously not been reading very much.
mtDNA mutates at a near constant rate, you can almost set your clocks with it, thus making it an indispensable tool both for tracing ancestry, and calculating when splits between groups could have occured. Its more accurate than merely comparing blood groups (not that blood groups are useless, idealy you use a bit of everything to create the full picture).


Could we stay civil here?

I reedited my article, what I had was not accurate and thanks for correction. I am not mtDNA expert, but what I see seems to confirm a closeness between all groups in Europe.

This is interesting discussion and, from my perspective, if Modern Greeks were related to the Antiquity Greeks, I would consider it very interesting. If they weren't, it would not be any less interesting. We debate history and we should not get too emotional about it.

I wonder how mature and how reliable is study of mtDNA in the context of tracing migration of peoples and relationships among them. Particularly ones that are very closely related.







Edited by cavalry4ever
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