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Unifiers of Japan

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Unifiers of Japan
    Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 11:18
I heard that there are three great unifiers...I only know Hideyoshi and Tokugawa...can any one fill me in on the other one?
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 11:48

Oda nobunaga- made a historical victory where his musketeers defeat more numbered Horsemen of a proud clan.  He also unified most of Japan when he was betrayed.

Doyotomi hideyoshi- followed Nobunaga and conquers all of Japan.  Follows by a conquest of Korea, which fails.  His death marked the retreat of forces in Korea.

Dokugawa- I know he killed Christians, but not much about him.  He also opened trade with Korea back and tranquilized the anger between the two countries. 

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:33
It wasn't Nobunaga.  He was a big player in the unification and set the stage for it, but he died in a battle, so Hideyoshi ended up unifying Japan.  There is one shogun before Hideyoshi though....
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 15:28

Oda Nobunaga.  I am positive.  I've seen Samurai movies with Nobunaga and so I know.

And he didn't die in a battle.  He died in a place called hondonji, and now in Japan, there is a idiom that goes like "be wary of hondonji", that is said when something wrong has happened to you when it wasn't you who did it.  Historically, Nobunaga was betrayed in hondonji by this guy which Hideyoshi managed to kill.

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 16:12
I checked my encyclopedia on Nobunaga
"
Oda Nobunaga

Oda Nobunaga (1534-1582), Japanese feudal lord, who started the unification of the country, then torn by local wars. Working from a modest family base in the province of Owari, he gradually gained control of the whole region and occupied (1568) the capital city of Kyōto. Five years later he drove out the last Ashikaga shogun. He went on to destroy the temporal power of the Buddhist sects and monasteries and, as a counterbalance to their influence, encouraged Christian missionaries. By 1580 he had extended his authority over all of central Japan. Before he could realize his goal of winning control of the whole country, however, he was assassinated by one of his vassals.

Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2004. 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved."
He got close, but he didn't quite do it.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 19:30
Hes but he is still regarded as the first unifier of Japan, ask any Japanese person or anyone that knows of Japanese history, they wil tell you without Oda Nobunaga's efforts the Ieyasau and Hideyoshi couldnthave come about  without him.  ODa Nobunaga is the 1rst unifier, if you try to look up 3 unifiers of Japan or try to find some mysterious other candidate you will fail unless you find some crock-history counter factual website.
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 23:36
lol ok Thanks a bunch!
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 02:52
 why did it take more than one guy to unify a little country like japan? china was unified by one. and all the warring kingdoms in china at the time are much more powerful and aggressive...though you can say relatively those in japan at the time were just as powerful and aggressive.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 05:14

Japan could have been unified by one person, just that he was betrayed.

Grrr..
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:34

Originally posted by babyblue

 why did it take more than one guy to unify a little country like japan? china was unified by one. and all the warring kingdoms in china at the time are much more powerful and aggressive...though you can say relatively those in japan at the time were just as powerful and aggressive.

 

The differnec is in government structure.  China has the madate of Heaven, a powerful Emperor, and a centralized beauracracy, Japan had a weak figurehead emperor and many almost totally independant feudal warlords.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:57
Yea, its basically the same reason it took so long for Germany and Italy to Unify, mini countries with their own agendas.
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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 15:14

Tokugawa didn't trust missionaries, especially the Fransicans and Jesuists that were pouring into Japan via Dutch and Portugese frigates that frequented Japan's ports. They were causing strife, disorder and friction with the rest of Japan. They no longer worshipped the emperor, followed the old ways.

What Tokugawa did by expelling the Westerns and killing off the Christian Japanese was justifiable. They were weakening Japan, and killing her soul.



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 15:20

What Tokugawa actually did to Christian was this:

In every town, he would make an assembly.  He placed a figure of jesus on ground, and make one by one to step on it.  Those who didn't were sentenced to death.

Grrr..
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 02:06
Originally posted by Tobodai

 

 

The differnec is in government structure.  China has the madate of Heaven, a powerful Emperor, and a centralized beauracracy, Japan had a weak figurehead emperor and many almost totally independant feudal warlords.

      weak point you made there....the "one" person who i was refering to was Qin Shihuangdi, the china he unified over two thousand years ago are pretty much what japan was like during the time of Nobunaga. The Son of Heaven at that time was there purely for ceremonial purposes. there were hundreds of feudal kingdoms during the Spring and Autumn period hurling men agains one another. Big and powerful kingdoms want to expand into smaller ones, whilst smaller and weaker kingdoms want to become big and powerful ones.

   So by the Warring States Periods, only seven major kingdoms were left from the original hundreds, the Yan, Han, Wei, Qi, Zhao, Chu and of course the Qin.

   China at the time were no less turbulent than the Japan of the 14 and the 15 hundreds.

   what i was trying to say was that china was unified for the first time by  one person, Qin Shihuangdi. The Mandate of Heaven, all powerful emperor and a centralised beaurocracy only came after the unification of the Qin.



Edited by babyblue
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 15:20
So what exactly are you trying to say?  Yes China unified early, and it took some time for Japan to Unify...so what?  I am not sure what your point is...PS...this post may sound angry but it is not
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 20:44

Hey,

    Actually, may be Gubkjanggoon has a right to be angry, and he's absolutely right that unification means very little.  No one would deny that the Europeans beat everybody in the race of "advancement," -- whether we like that is another story.

    Incidentally, there's a very good geographical explanation for the early unification of China.  Agriculture was considered the most beneficial economic means of production since an early time in China, and much of its agriculture depends on the Yellow River.  But the Yellow River is long, and has periodic drought and floods.  If the lands are divided along the river among different powers, it would be difficult to manage the river, since it takes a unified government to manage the entire river.  It was economically beneficial for China to have a unified government.

    Furthermore, the periodic disunification of China undermines the supposed greatness of its initial unification.

Peace,

Michael

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 21:32
Originally posted by Dari

Tokugawa didn't trust missionaries, especially the Fransicans and Jesuists that were pouring into Japan via Dutch and Portugese frigates that frequented Japan's ports. They were causing strife, disorder and friction with the rest of Japan. They no longer worshipped the emperor, followed the old ways.

What Tokugawa did by expelling the Westerns and killing off the Christian Japanese was justifiable. They were weakening Japan, and killing her soul.

 

Countris have souls?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 21:36
Originally posted by babyblue

Originally posted by Tobodai

 

 

The differnec is in government structure.  China has the madate of Heaven, a powerful Emperor, and a centralized beauracracy, Japan had a weak figurehead emperor and many almost totally independant feudal warlords.

      weak point you made there....the "one" person who i was refering to was Qin Shihuangdi, the china he unified over two thousand years ago are pretty much what japan was like during the time of Nobunaga. The Son of Heaven at that time was there purely for ceremonial purposes. there were hundreds of feudal kingdoms during the Spring and Autumn period hurling men agains one another. Big and powerful kingdoms want to expand into smaller ones, whilst smaller and weaker kingdoms want to become big and powerful ones.

   So by the Warring States Periods, only seven major kingdoms were left from the original hundreds, the Yan, Han, Wei, Qi, Zhao, Chu and of course the Qin.

   China at the time were no less turbulent than the Japan of the 14 and the 15 hundreds.

   what i was trying to say was that china was unified for the first time by  one person, Qin Shihuangdi. The Mandate of Heaven, all powerful emperor and a centralised beaurocracy only came after the unification of the Qin.

 

SO? China was lucky, many nations have 1 or 100 unifiers, but by the time of the Sengoku Jidai in Japan you have many more factors coming into play, trade with Europe, introduction of massed firearms, foreign religions, and of course you have no real recent precident of unified power for the last bunches of hundred years.

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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 02:48

You know what I mean. I distrust Semitic religions and ideals. What missionaries do when they come to a foreign land is mock it's way of life, traditions, customs, beliefs, ect...Christians are the worst of the lot in doing this. There are reports from the UN that American/Christian missionaries force African villagers who are starving, to beg to be baptized to gain their food.

Like I said, Tokugawa was justified in his actions. And I thank whatever force (non godly) that Japan has not turned to even have a large minority of Christians.



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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 16:15

Hey Dari,

    Semitic religions?  Judaism doesn't have missionaries and doesn't actively convert non-Jews.  It might be better that you simply say Christianity and perhaps also Islam, but not Semitic religions.

Peace,

Michael

8-21-2004

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