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Knight's Templar's lost treasure...

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Knight's Templar's lost treasure...
    Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 14:48
Mr. Brown's "Da Vinci Code" gave the idea that the lost tresure of Knight's Templar was the body of the Mary, and the truth about Jesus and His "offsprings.". I read another novel that showed another interesting fictional theory.
 
The fiction points out that the some of the Templars, at first the enemies of the Muslim and Jewish people, were slowly showing interests to the Islam and Judism. In the end, the treasure that the templars tried to blackmail against the Pope was not the corpse of Mary, but the evidences which point out that Muslim, Christianity and Judism were one religion, all praising the one God. (Technically, we know it's true.) Muslim spreaded by Ishamel, Christianity and Judism by Issac. 
 
Anyways, that's what I have been thinking for some time. What if the Knight's Templar managed to strike before France and the Pope ambushed them? What if they revealed to the world that Christianity, Islam and Judism were the same? What if the "falsehood" of the divinity of Christ spreaded over the known world?
 
How different do you think our world would be?
 
Good because men no longer have to suffer by the lies? No more religious bloodshed?
 
Bad because the world would go into chaos? No longer men had to live in moral life? The security and the order of the world collapse?
 
What do you think?
     
   
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 18:48
Am I correct in thinking that your saying 'What if the Knights Templar had converted to Islam, and started to spread Islam through western Europe?'

Because they would probably have been seized by the Inquisition
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 23:10

What if the Knight's Templar managed to strike before France and the Pope ambushed them?


Uh? Excuse me the Pope ambushed them?


King Philip IV of France (also known as "Philip the Fair"), who had taken the throne in 1285, seized upon the rumors for his own financial needs. He was already deeply in debt to the Templar as a result of his war with the English,[1] and he began pressuring the church to take action against the Order so as to free himself from his debts. King Philip was already known for struggles with the papacy, including the kidnapping of Pope Boniface VIII and the probable poisoning of Pope Benedict XI, via Philip's agent Guillaume de Nogaret.[1][8] After the death of Pope Benedict, the church's cardinals had engaged in a year-long conclave, finally deciding in June 1305 on Bertrand de Goth, a childhood friend of Philip's. Bertrand was invested as Pope Clement V.

On Friday, October 13, 1307 (a date incorrectly linked to the origin of the Friday the 13th legend[9][10]), Philip had many French Templar simultaneously arrested, charged with numerous heresies, and tortured until they "confessed" various types of blasphemy.[1][4] Philip also tried to pressure other European monarchs to follow suit, but they tended to act with more restraint, most notably Edward I of England who refused to believe the allegations. Eventually, Philip persuaded the Pope to take more decisive action through the power of the church. This action was the Bull, Pastoralis Praeeminentiae, (issued on November 22) which instructed all Christian monarchs in Europe to arrest all Templar and seize their assets. Some Templar in other countries were arrested and tried, but none were actually found guilty. Meanwhile, with the forced confessions that had been obtained in France, dozens of Templar were burned at the stake.

Then in 1312, under further pressure from King Philip (whose forces were encamped outside the city), Clement officially disbanded the entire Order at the Council of Vienne. His Bull, Vox in excelso, was issued on March 2nd and formally dissolved the Order. Another Bull, Ad proviendan, was issued shortly after, and turned the Templar's assets over to the Hospitallers although some of the income from the assets was set aside to provide pensions to some of the ex-Templar.

In 1314, the last of the Order's leaders, including the elderly Grand Master Jacques de Molay, were burned alive at the stake in Paris. The remaining Templar around Europe were either arrested and tried under the Papal investigation (with virtually none convicted), absorbed into other military orders such as the Order of Christ and the Knights Hospitaller, pensioned and returned to the secular life, or in some cases may have fled to other territories outside of Papal control, such as excommunicated Scotland. But questions still remain as to what happened to the thousands of Templar across Europe, and the extensive archive of the Templar, with detailed records of all of their business holdings and financial transactions, was never found.[4]

In modern times, it is the Roman Catholic Church's position that the persecution was unjust; that there was nothing inherently wrong with the Order or its Rule; and that the Pope at the time was severely pressured into his actions by the magnitude of the public scandal, and the dominating influence of King Philip IV.[


The Pope only acted in reaction to Philip IV's brutal repression of the Knights, hardly an ambush since the knights all ready knew they were being persecuted. Anyway he was just under the control of Philip. So leave him out of this debaucle with an indebted French monarch.

I digress though....


What if the Knight's Templar managed to strike before France and the Pope ambushed them?


Well if the Knights decided to strike it would be an appeal to the Pope that he should protect them from France. After all they were for the most part good Christians who had devoted their life to the church. Perhaps if they explained that Philip's actions were just meant to eliminate his debt to the order they could sway the Pope's opinion in their favor (as well as throwing some of Philip's money his way.) So that Philip would be under threat of excommunication if he assaulted the Templar Knights.


What if they revealed to the world that Christianity, Islam and Judism were the same?


I don't think this is appropriate since they were a knightly order which meant their sole purpose was to protect pilgrims from the 'barbarous mohammedians'. Also since many of them came from aristocratic backgrounds and since the jewish moneylenders were prime competition, I think they would be more likely to declare the religions very fundamentally different rather than fundamentally the same.


What if the "falsehood" of the divinity of Christ spreaded over the known world?


It didn't? I thought Spain to Zanzibar to Indonesia was the known world at the time?


How different do you think our world would be?


We would've had a slightly weaker french state, or not, depending on how they survived the Templar debt situation.


Good because men no longer have to suffer by the lies? No more religious bloodshed?


Religion is merely an excuse for "religious bloodshed" not the cause of it.


Bad because the world would go into chaos? No longer men had to live in moral life? The security and the order of the world collapse?


I doubt that the Templars realistic actions would lead to a chaotic future world. Even in this scenario, it wouldn't amount to much perhaps another Albigensian/Huguenot southern france movement that would be stamped out by stronger kings. The Templars versus the rest of europe would not turn out to be good for the Templars.


Because they would probably have been seized by the Inquisition


Wow, Omar one of the few correct usages of the Inquisitional courts I've seen someone comment one. Usually they are incorrect, i.e. jews and muslims are not under the jurisdiction of any Papal Inquisition, as it involves relapsed Christians.


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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 00:19
 
A very informed and well stated reply JR.
 
 
 
I am inclined to believe that the Templar Treasure had more to do with good old fashioned greed than secret evidence and high placed noble ideals.  The Templars held or influnced fortunes that equaled or even eclipsed that of Phillip.  Many accounts of their wealth exist and most are refferring to gold and other hard value items.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 01:17

Sorry to interrupt, but i would just like to say, that this is one of the only few threads in the forum, that i have been able to actually "Learn" from.

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 07:54
Originally posted by pekau

Mr. Brown's "Da Vinci Code" gave the idea that the lost tresure of Knight's Templar was the body of the Mary, and the truth about Jesus and His "offsprings.". I read another novel that showed another interesting fictional theory.
 
The fiction points out that the some of the Templars, at first the enemies of the Muslim and Jewish people, were slowly showing interests to the Islam and Judism. In the end, the treasure that the templars tried to blackmail against the Pope was not the corpse of Mary, but the evidences which point out that Muslim, Christianity and Judism were one religion, all praising the one God. (Technically, we know it's true.) Muslim spreaded by Ishamel, Christianity and Judism by Issac. 
 
Anyways, that's what I have been thinking for some time. What if the Knight's Templar managed to strike before France and the Pope ambushed them? What if they revealed to the world that Christianity, Islam and Judism were the same? What if the "falsehood" of the divinity of Christ spreaded over the known world?
 
How different do you think our world would be?
 
Good because men no longer have to suffer by the lies? No more religious bloodshed?
 
Bad because the world would go into chaos? No longer men had to live in moral life? The security and the order of the world collapse?
 
What do you think?



hmmm. pakau, i wonder which novel would that be?
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 09:20
Originally posted by Pekau

the corpse of Mary
 
I very dearly hope you meant the Corpus of Mary, not the Corpse of Mary? If not, eugh.
 
Anyway I have only one opinion about the knights Templar, and I expressed it a dozen times before:
 
The Templars were rich and powerful in a time when the King of France was short on money and the Pope was short on power.
 
And Janus, although I respect your right to defend your religion, defending a late medieval pope is pushing it a bit.Wink It is not like they were wise, nice or holy. Hell, even Dante placed most of them in Hell...LOL

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 22:51

And Janus, although I respect your right to defend your religion, defending a late medieval pope is pushing it a bit.Wink It is not like they were wise, nice or holy. Hell, even Dante placed most of them in Hell...LOL


I didn't defend Clement himself, I defended the office. Clement was merely a puppet to the French king and it does go to note that many nations other than France didn't act on the pope's decree right away.

Maybe that's why God created medieval popes so that he wouldn't be so bored....

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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 00:20
Yeah, Popes were fairly corrupt them, but that doesn't damn the entire medieval institution of the Church. Hell, the Church was the only place in Europe where literacy, scholarship, and learning flourished. I'd say many of us, Aelfgifu included, owe them some sort of debt, just as much as we owe the fleeing Byzantine monks for their reaquainting us with the Greek and Roman classics, which could well have been lost in the flames of Constantinople.
Hell, you could even defend Urban II if you were so inclined (which I might be, for the sake of discussion. That's another thread though...)

Back to the Templars. The Templars evolved from a Pilgrim-protecting Holy order, into bankers, into an esoteric society, not unlike the Rosicrucians, or the Order of the Golden Dawn. There is much evidence (not Dan Brown 'evidence'- somebody give that guy a chronic case of 'shut the hell up') that the Templars did know something about the polytheistic origins of the early Israelite and Christian religions (Jesus as Mithras, anyone? Born in a manger to a virgin? Drinking 'blood' as part of the sacraments? Anyone?), and that they did preserve some of that classical mythology, in the same way that other esoteric orders have throughout history. If there 'treasure' truly was hidden in the ruins of Solomon's temple (itself a representation of the mythological womb of Astophoreth), surely they might have found other ancient documents, written in praise of Ba'al, as well as other near Eastern mythological entities? I see no reason to believe the Templars didn't harbor pagan ideals (which still today exist in some parts of Europe and the Middle East), and why, out of a sense of nobless oblige they would feel reason to protect and nurture those esoteric beliefs, much to the chagrin of Popes and Catholic Kings alike. Afterall, the esoteric and classical belief systems have very powerful religious undertones, and any student of Renaissance art would surely understand the inherent 'power' in the preservation of knowledge so detrimental to Papist ideas in the medieval period. Hell, maybe their 'treasure' was the same things the Humanists brought in which spurred the Renaissance into existence?
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 05:13
Originally posted by Brian J Checco

Yeah, Popes were fairly corrupt them, but that doesn't damn the entire medieval institution of the Church. Hell, the Church was the only place in Europe where literacy, scholarship, and learning flourished.
 
This is a common misconception. Yes, for a long period the church did protect learning to some extent. But the Church was in many ways also responsible for the loss of a lot of knowledge. And from c. 1250 onwards, lay learning was becoming increasingly common. (By c. 1400, literacy in Florence and the Low Countries was about 80%.)
 
I'm not trying to diminish the Church and it achievements or anything, but everything must be put into pespective. The Church destroyed a lot too, and it has not encouraged learning at all points in its history either. In the early centuries after Rome, the 5th and 6th century, we have evindence Roman and Greek knowledge was destroyed by the church on purpose.

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 13:13
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Brian J Checco

Yeah, Popes were fairly corrupt them, but that doesn't damn the entire medieval institution of the Church. Hell, the Church was the only place in Europe where literacy, scholarship, and learning flourished.
 
This is a common misconception. Yes, for a long period the church did protect learning to some extent. But the Church was in many ways also responsible for the loss of a lot of knowledge. And from c. 1250 onwards, lay learning was becoming increasingly common. (By c. 1400, literacy in Florence and the Low Countries was about 80%.)
 
I'm not trying to diminish the Church and it achievements or anything, but everything must be put into pespective. The Church destroyed a lot too, and it has not encouraged learning at all points in its history either. In the early centuries after Rome, the 5th and 6th century, we have evindence Roman and Greek knowledge was destroyed by the church on purpose.
 
That's true. Only reason why we say that Catholic institutions were the centre of the learning (Which is true, by the way) is because Catholics destoryed almost all education institutions all over the Europe...
     
   
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 06:59
   I reckon the Templer's most guarded treasures would have been more in line with religious artifacts that would have come into their possession. Possibly something akin to the 'The Ark of the Covenant' or related items of great religious value. 
         
        (The town I stay had itself a Knights Templar Lodge/Temple. The main 'Hall' still stands and is now used as a large house. Back then Scotland was one of a few relative safe havens for Templars) 
   
           Anyways wouldn't that be a great tourist attractionThumbs%20Up
    Lost Templar Treasure 'Arc of the Covenant' last seen in Scotland.
                                  X marks the spot.
   
    Or come to Scotland; find the lost Legio VIIII hispania and recover the eagle standard .LOL
    
  Seems a lot of these lost thingy's end up being located somewhere in Scotland so why not take advantage and promote tourist interest.Wink
       
      Yep!Ermm we can laugh but just maybe the 'Arc of the Covenant' amongst other religious artifacts hidden someplace in Scotland is a reality given the Stewart/Bruce connection with Templars and all three with France.Confused 
 
 
 
         
      


Edited by Scorpian - 19-Mar-2007 at 03:20
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