I have watched a documentary about Turks escaping from east of river Aras to Turkey border.Unfortunately the ones who couldnt escape have been killed.And i also heard that %45 of the Erivan population was Turkish before the war.
Nop i dont believe so. We have Armenians here, in neighbourhood there is an Armenian woman, also there are 15 thousand offical numbers of Armenians in Azerbaijan, but I am not sure if it is right or wrong.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 21:34
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
I really find it hard to believe
Why? Armenians in Armenia don't have a grudge against Turks.
Turkey just listens to the Armenian diaspora too much, and then assumes
that Armenia holds the same position (they choose to have no relations whatsoever
with Armenia, but they allow the diaspora to change their foreign policy...) The people in Armenia just want regular relations with Turkey.
In Yerevan's central square I saw a Muslim woman covered from head
to toe, no one looked at her twice. There is also a working mosque in
Yerevan.
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
But there are Armenians here in Azerbaijan
Where?
Originally posted by Batu
There were Turks in Armenia before the armenian state
Hmmm, so there WAS an Armenia before the Armenian state was established
Why? Armenians in Armenia don't have a grudge against Turks.
Turkey just listens to the Armenian diaspora too much, and then assumes
that Armenia holds the same position (they choose to have no relations whatsoever
with Armenia, but they allow the diaspora to change their foreign policy...) The people in Armenia just want regular relations with Turkey.
In Yerevan's central square I saw a Muslim woman covered from head
to toe, no one looked at her twice. There is also a working mosque in
Yerevan.
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
But there are Armenians here in Azerbaijan
Where?
Originally posted by Batu
There were Turks in Armenia before the armenian state
Hmmm, so there WAS an Armenia before the Armenian state was established
Hmm I think it's verry sad that teh common people should suffer under Political BS. Normal people don't have problems with othe people untill the state tells them 2. This has allways been like that. And it's sad.
I think Batu means that Turks mostly left after the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
Why shouldn't there be mosks in Armenia there are Armenian Churches in Turkey 2.
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Armenian Survival, U hit the target from an eye!!!
There are actually over 15 000 armenians living in Azerbaijan. Most of them are Baku Armenians. There are two living in our building. One is old women and another is young 30 year old guy. Womans name is Ira - that is how we call her. She just did not live Azerbaijan during the war. Remember, Our people do not have hatred towards Armenia, and there are Azeri Turks having very close economic and family relations with Armenians outside of the country, like in Russia. I am really glad that there are some muslims and turks in Armenia as well and I am really glad that u tell me that Armenian people wants peace, not war - And u should realize that it is only governments that hold the problem from solving!
I am looking foreward to the solvation of the problem in the future - we're neighbours and will not move from here in the future: We have to find ways to negotiate with each other!
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 06:19
Note that I don't disagree with what the diaspora does today.
Ankara left us with no choice except to try and effect its politics
through foreign governments. Over 60% of our nation has been living as
foreigners for 3 generations (most of which is their fault), and
considering Armenia's minimal importance in world politics, it is the
only option. Afterall, the reason the terror groups ceased to exist is
because Armenians slowly gained a political voice (the only reason they
existed is because there was no independent Armenia, and the Armenian
SSR was heavily censored by the Soviets).
Plus if Turkey opens its borders we won't be so dependent on the
school bully (Russia). As long as there is tension and fear of invasion
from Azerbaijan and potentially Turkey, Russia will have a strong
influence over Armenia. Its physical survival in the post-Soviet era
depends on Moscow.
Originally posted by xi tujue
I think Batu means that Turks mostly left after the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
I was just surprised he actually referred to the pre-independence
era while calling the region by its real name--Armenia... because
Ankara has been trying to erase that fact by conveniently overlooking
Armenians' integral presence in the region's history (I'm talking about
the lands east of the Euphrates and south of Lazestan including present-day Armenia).
Originally posted by Kerimoglu
I am looking foreward to the solvation of the problem in the future -
we're neighbours and will not move from here in the future: We have to
find ways to negotiate with each other!
Yes I agree. But its going to be hard to
resolve two sensitive issues: the events of WWI and the Karabakh
conflict.
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Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:23
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Note that I don't disagree with what the diaspora does today. Ankara left us with no choice except to try and effect its politics through foreign governments.
Let's not drag this into the clich discussion once more..Furthermore, the topic has nothing to do with what diaspora does or doesn't, but anyway, since this is a questions&answers forum, I am pleased to reply on behalf of myself :
So the choice you are mentioning out there is the recognization...Of course, you don't expect Ankara to do such a thing.
So, instead of seeking a peaceful approach, the diaspora opted to spread money and use influence among different parliamentarians, academicians, people etc. in influential ranks, according to some theories. Turning it into a political warfare. And many European states using that as a tool against Turkey.
I don't say Ankara is not mistaken, though. Ankara's mistake was to always stay silent against the propaganda made all around the world...Ankara's mistake was to stay so silent while tens of its diplomatic representatives were murdered, Ankara's mistake, while not recognizing , not to explain its position and discuss things in a solid way while the Diasporic Propaganda was spread among everywhere.
So, if Armenian state has any concerns, they shall go to International Court of Justice(by offering it to Turkey as well), where local legislative actions are not taken into consideration.
Edited by Kapikulu - 24-Mar-2007 at 14:33
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we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
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Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:51
Originally posted by Batu
if there was no place called Armenia ; then modern Armenian state shouldnt have founded as its absent
But there WAS a place called Armenia before the modern Armenian
state was established. Since the first independent Armenian state in
585 B.C., there has been a continual and significant Armenian presence
in the region. In fact, in most countries (not including Turkey),
"Armenia" is a term used to describe east Anatolia (check a few world
atlases, and you'll see what I mean).
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So the choice you are mentioning out there is the
recognization...Of course, you don't expect Ankara to do such a
thing
I'm not just talking about the genocide thing. Even if they
recognize it or not, they wouldn't allow Armenians to move back to their homeland in east
Anatolia. You can't do much in Turkey if you have -ian at the end of
your name (Armenian mountain climbers from any country are not allowed
to climb Ararat, for instance). I know people who have visited east
Anatolia, and when they told people they were Armenian, they were
surprised to see that many people also claimed to be Armenian, but they
told them not to tell anyone else. Basically they are a different
person in front of a Turk, while their real side comes out in front of
others. The hostile atmosphere for minorities is the reason for this.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, instead of seeking a peaceful approach, the diaspora opted to
spread money and use influence among different parliamentarians,
academicians, people etc. in influential ranks, according to some
theories. Turning it into a political warfare. And many European states
using that as a tool against Turkey
What do you mean "instead of a seeking a peaceful approach".... politics is
the only peaceful approach. Over 60% of our nation doesn't live in
Armenia, so the diaspora is technically more representative of the
Armenian people worldwide (again, one of the reasons why most of the
nation lives in foreign countries is the fault of Ankara for not
returning them their stolen property... many people actually have deeds
to their property and when they visit Turkey they find either Turks or
Kurds living in their homes). In fact it was Ankara that started taking
political cheap-shots like this, denying property rights, erasing
Armenian presence from the region's history, and all while there wasn't
even an independent Armenia.
Now that Armenians gained a voice in the past 10-15 years, and gained
support from many foreign countries, Ankara accuses us of playing
political games
So the same thing you are accusing the diaspora of (spreading
money, furthering their agenda) was being practiced by Ankara for decades,
trying to cover up these issues and making them taboo. The diaspora simply figured that
Turkey was more successful because they played politics rather than taking up arms, so they
adopted the same strategy.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
I don't say Ankara is not mistaken, though. Ankara's mistake was to
always stay silent against the propaganda made all around the
world...Ankara's mistake was to stay so silent while tens of its
diplomatic representatives were murdered, Ankara's mistake, while not
recognizing , not to explain its position and discuss things in a solid
way while the Diasporic Propaganda was spread among everywhere.
Staying silent wasn't a mistake by Ankara.... it was their
strategy. They never imagined
in the early days of the Turkish republic that the Armenians would one
day have a political voice of this calibur (it was unimaginable even 20
years ago). When Armenians, while not
having an independent country, were fighting to raise awareness for the
genocide from 1923-1991, Ankara never said a word, precisely for the
reason that they didn't want anyone to know about these events. Now
that we gained a political voice, they start making claims that
Armenians actually murdered Turks by the millions.... but why weren't
they making those claims for 70 years? Why were they silent about the
deaths of *supposedly* millions of their countrymen at the hands of Armenians? It doesn't take a
political scientist to figure that out. They only started talking when
the issue was brought straight
to their doorstep, from the mouths of all the nations they had
relations with. Silence was their strategy, and now that there is no
more silence, they make excuses, and they fund revisionist historians
to come up with alternate theories of what really happened, and they
put political and economic pressure on any nation that wants to
recognize the events of WWI. You live in Turkey, you know better than
me that these topics are taboo, and that the state wants everyone to be
hush-hush about them. If their claims are true, then why have they been trying to hide the issue for 90 years?
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, if Armenian state has any concerns, they shall go to International
Court of Justice(by offering it to Turkey as well), where local
legislative actions are not taken into consideration.
So what would that solve? The events of WWI culminated because of domestic/internal policies.
Originally posted by the oz
And i also heard that %45 of the Erivan population was Turkish before the war
Its possible. At the dawn of WWI Yerevan was the backwater of
Armenia, a town of no more than 30,000 people. I know the Armenians
were a majority in Yerevan before the war, so if 45% of the population
was non-Armenian, it still makes sense. If you count Azeris and Tatars
(which probably comprised most of the non-Armenian population) as
Turks, then 45% is definitely possible. Also as mamikon said in the
early 90's the Azeri population in Armenia mostly lived east of Lake
Sevan, close to the Azeri border, and they fled when the fighting broke
out.
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Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 21:09
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
The hostile atmosphere for minorities is the reason for this.
First of all, there is not a "hostile" atmosphere within Turkey...There are many Armenians in Turkey, who are actually one of us..I had four Armenian friends at the high school...Were they treated differently? No...Would they be treated differently in any place of Turkey? No...Because of the very fact that they are human, like us, living in the same atmosphere with us, very similar to us.
People don't have any kind of severe hatred towards Armenians...That is not the case in Armenia as far as I have heard from people who travelled there.
It is true that there is not high thoughts regarding the Armenian state or diaspora activism, though...Think why...Shall not be so hard to find.
So, only result of all this activity is scratching things to make more ache...Nothing else
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
What do you mean "instead of a seeking a peaceful approach".... politics is the only peaceful approach.
Politics can be peaceful or very hostile and bloody...Depends.
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
(again, one of the reasons why most of the nation lives in foreign countries is the fault of Ankara for not returning them their stolen property... many people actually have deeds to their property and when they visit Turkey they find either Turks or Kurds living in their homes). In fact it was Ankara that started taking political cheap-shots like this, denying property rights, erasing Armenian presence from the region's history, and all while there wasn't even an independent Armenia. Now that Armenians gained a voice in the past 10-15 years, and gained support from many foreign countries, Ankara accuses us of playing political games
If you think the houses from the beginning of 20th century is still existent except a few of them, you still live in some kind of a dreamworld.
So, is this property thing brand new? I couldn't have heard a more weird claim...So, Turkish parliament, go for the Turks' houses in Balkans, Arabia, Middle East, North Africa and request compensation from those 40 states...Owww.
Is there such a logic? One won't be the citizen of a state, however will have direct property rights...
So, how can the Armenian presence be erased from region's history? Another part I didn't understand is that.
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
So the same thing you are accusing the diaspora of (spreading money, furthering their agenda) was being practiced by Ankara for decades, trying to cover up these issues and making them taboo. The diaspora simply figured that Turkey was more successful because they played politics rather than taking up arms, so they adopted the same strategy.
So, in one point, you state that Turkey's strategy had been to remain silent and then say Ankara is for decades spreading money to counter diaspora thesis...
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Staying silent wasn't a mistake by Ankara.... it was their strategy. They never imagined in the early days of the Turkish republic that the Armenians would one day have a political voice of this calibur (it was unimaginable even 20 years ago). When Armenians, while not having an independent country, were fighting to raise awareness for the genocide from 1923-1991, Ankara never said a word, precisely for the reason that they didn't want anyone to know about these events. Now that we gained a political voice, they start making claims that Armenians actually murdered Turks by the millions.... but why weren't they making those claims for 70 years? Why were they silent about the deaths of *supposedly* millions of their countrymen at the hands of Armenians? It doesn't take a political scientist to figure that out. They only started talking when the issue was brought straight to their doorstep, from the mouths of all the nations they had relations with. Silence was their strategy, and now that there is no more silence, they make excuses, and they fund revisionist historians to come up with alternate theories of what really happened, and they put political and economic pressure on any nation that wants to recognize the events of WWI. You live in Turkey, you know better than me that these topics are taboo, and that the state wants everyone to be hush-hush about them. If their claims are true, then why have they been trying to hide the issue for 90 years?
Normally, you(or states) don't feel the need to defend yourself against a claim which is a slander, or untrue claim in your book..Unless this slander or claim gets too common, coming to a point which would damage your reputation unrightfully.
It was not the strategy of Ankara...Ankara just didn't care about anything, that's why. Ankara was busy with some other stuff and with a huge mistake didn't feel the need to show his position in the manner.
By the way, it is ironically quite interesting that, whenever a credible historian comes up and contradicts the Armenian theses, it becomes suddenly claimed that the historian is "bought" by Turkish government...
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, if Armenian state has any concerns, they shall go to International Court of Justice(by offering it to Turkey as well), where local legislative actions are not taken into consideration.
I urge you to read underlined part again. Local legislative action: Law passed in a country...Like the Diaspora-motivated laws legislated in some countries.
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we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
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Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 00:30
Originally posted by Kapikulu
First of all, there is not a "hostile" atmosphere within Turkey...There
are many Armenians in Turkey, who are actually one of us..I had four
Armenian friends at the high school...Were they treated differently?
No...Would they be treated differently in any place of Turkey?
No...Because of the very fact that they are human, like us, living in
the same atmosphere with us, very similar to us.
I know many of people who were born and raised in Turkey. They
had to change their family names just to have an easier life (why do
you think so many Armenians in Turkey have -oglu at the end of their
names?). When they write in history books that the Armenians are
traitors to Turkey, that they were all conspiring to destroy the
nation, and that they deserved to be cast into the desert, what kind of
mindset do you think that creates inside people?(do you think the fact
most people think like this is just merely coincidence?) Do you know
how many people believe that Armenian identity was created by the
Russians? Maybe you and your friends had a lot of Armenian buddies, I'm
not surprised, you seem like a normal guy. But its a big country, its
not the same everywhere, and we are talking about a 90-year timespan.
Remember how the police treated the guy who shot Dink? They treated a
murderer as a hero, treated his victim as an enemy of the state, the
whole world saw it, and you're telling me that there is no hostile
atmosphere in Turkey. We are talking about today, present day, in front
of everyone, not even 10 years ago, or 20, let alone 90+ years when
there was no widespread international media.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
It is true that there is not high thoughts regarding the Armenian state
or diaspora activism, though...Think why...Shall not be so hard to find.
As far as I'm concerned, the Turkish government is what made the
diaspora into such a huge and motivated group. Don't forget, all the
Armenians from France, America, Lebanon, Argentina, etc, all the
diaspora "activists" are only living in those countries because of the
Turkish government.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
Politics can be peaceful or very hostile and bloody...Depends
Yes but to say that what the diaspora does is hostile or bloody is
far-fetched. Convincing a government through legislature to pass a bill
sounds pretty civilized, wouldn't you say? I'm not talking about the
terror groups, they operated when there was no independent Armenia,
when we didn't have a voice. Plus, they were hardly representative of
the diaspora.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
If you think the houses from the beginning of 20th century is
still existent except a few of them, you still live in some kind of a
dreamworld.
So, is this property thing brand new? I couldn't have heard a more
weird claim...So, Turkish parliament, go for the Turks' houses
in Balkans, Arabia, Middle East, North Africa and request compensation
from those 40 states...Owww.
Is there such a logic? One won't be the citizen of a state, however will have direct property rights...
Maybe I wasn't clear. The claims were made within a few years of
WWI. After WWI, there were thousands upon thousands of Armenians who
were refugees in foreign countries, who still had the deed to their
property that they owned in Turkey. They appealed to the Turkish
government but to no avail. The houses are still standing, but they are
occupied by Turks and Kurds. They were basically taken by the
government and given to non-Armenians, and all the Armenians who
appealed were denied the rights to their own property (its funny,
because the official line in Turkey is that the deported Armenians were
supposed to one day return to their homes in east Anatolia... this is
proof that their claim was complete BS).
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, how can the Armenian presence be erased
from region's history? Another part I didn't understand is that
Read any history book or information which is provided by the
state, and tell me how many times Armenia or Armenians are mentioned.
Now, filter out all the innaccurate or disingeniune information, and
tell me what you are left with. Note that I'm not even talking about
physical destruction.
I don't know how many times I've heard people from Turkey say
"there was never a nation called Armenia". They do this with the Kurds
too. Either there is a mass dropout rate in Turkey, or the government
is making them learn bullsh*t.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, in one point, you state that Turkey's strategy had been to remain
silent and then say Ankara is for decades spreading money to counter
diaspora thesis...
I didn't say they were countering diaspora theses... I said they
used resources to hush up the whole issue and make it into a taboo. At
that time, the diaspora didn't even have a voice, and Turkey was trying
to keep it that way (I'm talking about the Soviet era).
Originally posted by Kapikulu
Normally, you(or states) don't feel the need to defend yourself
against a claim which is a slander, or untrue claim in your
book..Unless this slander or claim gets too common, coming to a point
which would damage your reputation unrightfully.
It was not the strategy of Ankara...Ankara just didn't care about
anything, that's why. Ankara was busy with some other stuff and with a
huge mistake didn't feel the need to show his position in the manner
You say they didn't care, I say they knew one day this issue can
potentially bite them in the ass, so they tried to hush it up and make
it taboo by punishing anyone who so much as spoke up about the plight
of the Armenians. When that didn't work, thats when we start hearing
this BS about Armenians slaughtering millions of Turks, and "civil
wars" in which women and children were "relocated to prevent them from
helping the enemy"
Originally posted by Kapikulu
By the way, it is ironically quite interesting that, whenever a
credible historian comes up and contradicts the Armenian theses, it
becomes suddenly claimed that the historian is "bought" by Turkish
government...
Thats because those "credible" historians are on payrolls from the
Turkish government. The most widely known historian who holds the
Turkish argument, Justin McCarthy, gets paychecks from the Turkish
government. The fact that he is outspoken hardly makes him credible.
Originally posted by Kapikulu
I urge you to read underlined part again. Local legislative action: Law
passed in a country...Like the Diaspora-motivated laws legislated in
some countries.
The reason those "diaspora-motivated laws" are passed is because
Turkey doesn't want to have dialogue with Armenia, or with anyone that
has anything to say about the Armenian question. They can't even talk
about the issue in their own country without bringing people to trial,
how do you expect them to talk about it with other nations?
I know many of people who were born and raised in Turkey. They had to change their family names just to have an easier life (why do you think so many Armenians in Turkey have -oglu at the end of their names?). When they write in history books that the Armenians are traitors to Turkey, that they were all conspiring to destroy the nation, and that they deserved to be cast into the desert, what kind of mindset do you think that creates inside people?(do you think the fact most people think like this is just merely coincidence?) Do you know how many people believe that Armenian identity was created by the Russians? Maybe you and your friends had a lot of Armenian buddies, I'm not surprised, you seem like a normal guy. But its a big country, its not the same everywhere, and we are talking about a 90-year timespan. Remember how the police treated the guy who shot Dink? They treated a murderer as a hero, treated his victim as an enemy of the state, the whole world saw it, and you're telling me that there is no hostile atmosphere in Turkey. We are talking about today, present day, in front of everyone, not even 10 years ago, or 20, let alone 90+ years when there was no widespread international media.
Name me more than 10 names of Turkish people living in Armenia and being treated as normal equal people - U cant! It is the same everywhere - Name a Mexican in US that is totally socially equal to US citezens????
Changing names is not becouse they were affraid. My surname is Garayev - so I am afraid of Russians??? Or were my Granpas???? It is becouse they all were part of that union with crappy ideologies of creating 1 nation.
Coming to Dink - I bet u remember how did them mourn and bury him, dont u???
Diaspora does only worthen the condition of Armenian people - so does the government! I do not think Turkish peole are living bad and have a need of opening borders with Armenia. And I do not believe that Turkey may attack u guys in future - We live in 21st century, not the mediaval ages. We may, if we are fool - to attack u, hope not! Hope we come to conclusion that no sides would lose sons!!!
Genocide issue is the issue of History, and I believe that as long as u continue using it against Turkey, borders won't open to u by Turkey which will make the living of ordinary peoiple very bad.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
Well my high school was in İstanbul. And i had Armenian, Azerbaijanian, Greek, Jewish, Arabic, Kurd, Ukrainian, Georgian classmates. They were all good to each other. (Only the Armenians and Azaeris were not talking but that was all nothing more) [And by the way i cant remember but yea i think thier name was finnished with -oglu]
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