Turks in Armenia?

Originally posted by xi tujue @ Armeniansurvival all true but why should teh Modern Turkish goverlent feel respnsible for the events that went on in a monarchy of the past....(I just don't get it)

     They more or less continued the Ottoman's work. Ataturk went to war with Armenia right after he took power and annexed a large portion of the first republic which still belongs to Turkey (even though Armenia was dirt poor and suffering famine, just survived a "mass deportation", and was at war with the advancing Soviet Red army, one of the few countries to actually resist the Soviet invasion). Also, I already said they denied a load of deported Armenians their own property right after WW1 (until this day), they don't allow Armenians to freely talk about their history, they put economic and political pressure on other countries that help Armenians, etc etc. Plus, if Turks view Ottomans as their own, why should Armenians think differently? They're all Turkish states in the same exact region, direct inheritors, with more or less the same policy towards our nation.

     You should ask, if modern Turks and Ottoman Turks are so different, why the modern Turkish state politically/economically intimidates foreign countries who pass bills saying that Ottoman Turks committed genocide

Originally posted by Kerimoglu Like u should look world with open eyes and accept that the Genocide, whether it was true or false - will never be accepted by strong and worldpower countries

     This is not a winner's mentality. 20 years ago, no one was talking about this issue. Look at all the countries that recognized it just in the last 10 years (look at mamikon's map).

Yes i agree they did, about Germany i am 100% sure they did.

Haha, u know that it is not true though - Russian government, Congress, Germany, Audtralia - have never recognized the genocide officially

Originally posted by Kerimoglu Anyways, I just simply cannot understand what does Armenia want. Like u should look world with open eyes and accept that the Genocide, whether it was true or false - will never be accepted by strong and worldpower countries, becouse none of them wants to lose an ally like Turkey. Remember Guls last visit to Washington that cancelled all desires of your diaspora.

erm...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ArmenianGenocideRecognition.png

there are rumors that soon China will also recognize

So, Armenian Survival, what u say is, Armenia may have a bad future but closed borders with Azerbaijan and Turkey. In fact we do have a political power on Georgia - we support their 100 % energy needs, as well as food. We can make them to close borders with Armenia as well, and the only side would left would be Iran, which i do not think would take another negative step against us - since we are much more powerful than we were in 1994. Anyways, I just simply cannot understand what does Armenia want. Like u should look world with open eyes and accept that the Genocide, whether it was true or false - will never be accepted by strong and worldpower countries, becouse none of them wants to lose an ally like Turkey. Remember Guls last visit to Washington that cancelled all desires of your diaspora.

@ Armeniansurvival all true but why should teh Modern Turkish goverlent feel respnsible for the events that went on in a monarchy of the past....(I just don't get it)


Yeah russia & Iran support armenia. Iran I understand they have borders but Russia doesn't so trade and support are limited and not enough.

And I think Turkey armenia georgia & azerbaycan should open up borders with eachother because well if you liek it or not. Good relation with your neigbour is better than a bad one.

     It will have a future, just not a very good one. But this doesn't mean we should stop advocating what we know to be true. Turkey only gained from WW1's atrocities, so of course they want the issue shut up and put away to history. Its not our fault---maybe if they stopped bringing people to trial for expressing their opinions, and got rid of laws that limit any opinion other than the nationalist view, then we could have civilized discourse. As long as Turkey cannot talk openly about the issue in their own country as if it were any other topic, then they are not ready to do it on an international level.

     Armenia will still have Russia, Iran, America, France and the diaspora, among others. If Turkey shuts its ears, and keeps cutting ties with nations that support Armenians' rights, what kind of future are they going to have?

If Turkey, azerbaycan, georgias ties with Armenia doesn't improve in teh next 10-20 years does it have a futur?

Well my high school was in İstanbul. And i had Armenian, Azerbaijanian, Greek, Jewish, Arabic, Kurd, Ukrainian, Georgian classmates. They were all good to each other. (Only the Armenians and Azaeris were not talking but that was all nothing more) [And by the way i cant remember but yea i think thier name was finnished with -oglu]

Edited by erkut - 27-Mar-2007 at 06:58

Originally posted by Kapikulu First of all, there is not a "hostile" atmosphere within Turkey...There are many Armenians in Turkey, who are actually one of us..I had four Armenian friends at the high school...Were they treated differently? No...Would they be treated differently in any place of Turkey? No...Because of the very fact that they are human, like us, living in the same atmosphere with us, very similar to us.

     I know many of people who were born and raised in Turkey. They had to change their family names just to have an easier life (why do you think so many Armenians in Turkey have -oglu at the end of their names?). When they write in history books that the Armenians are traitors to Turkey, that they were all conspiring to destroy the nation, and that they deserved to be cast into the desert, what kind of mindset do you think that creates inside people?(do you think the fact most people think like this is just merely coincidence?) Do you know how many people believe that Armenian identity was created by the Russians? Maybe you and your friends had a lot of Armenian buddies, I'm not surprised, you seem like a normal guy. But its a big country, its not the same everywhere, and we are talking about a 90-year timespan. Remember how the police treated the guy who shot Dink? They treated a murderer as a hero, treated his victim as an enemy of the state, the whole world saw it, and you're telling me that there is no hostile atmosphere in Turkey. We are talking about today, present day, in front of everyone, not even 10 years ago, or 20, let alone 90+ years when there was no widespread international media.

Originally posted by Kapikulu It is true that there is not high thoughts regarding the Armenian state or diaspora activism, though...Think why...Shall not be so hard to find.

     As far as I'm concerned, the Turkish government is what made the diaspora into such a huge and motivated group. Don't forget, all the Armenians from France, America, Lebanon, Argentina, etc, all the diaspora "activists" are only living in those countries because of the Turkish government.

Originally posted by Kapikulu Politics can be peaceful or very hostile and bloody...Depends

     Yes but to say that what the diaspora does is hostile or bloody is far-fetched. Convincing a government through legislature to pass a bill sounds pretty civilized, wouldn't you say? I'm not talking about the terror groups, they operated when there was no independent Armenia, when we didn't have a voice. Plus, they were hardly representative of the diaspora.

Originally posted by Kapikulu If you think the houses from the beginning of 20th century is still existent except a few of them, you still live in some kind of a dreamworld.   So, is this property thing brand new? I couldn't have heard a more weird claim...So, Turkish parliament, go for the Turks' houses in Balkans, Arabia, Middle East, North Africa and request compensation from those 40 states...Owww.    Is there such a logic? One won't be the citizen of a state, however will have direct property rights...

     Maybe I wasn't clear. The claims were made within a few years of WWI. After WWI, there were thousands upon thousands of Armenians who were refugees in foreign countries, who still had the deed to their property that they owned in Turkey. They appealed to the Turkish government but to no avail. The houses are still standing, but they are occupied by Turks and Kurds. They were basically taken by the government and given to non-Armenians, and all the Armenians who appealed were denied the rights to their own property (its funny, because the official line in Turkey is that the deported Armenians were supposed to one day return to their homes in east Anatolia... this is proof that their claim was complete BS).

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, how can the Armenian presence be erased from region's history? Another part I didn't understand is that

     Read any history book or information which is provided by the state, and tell me how many times Armenia or Armenians are mentioned. Now, filter out all the innaccurate or disingeniune information, and tell me what you are left with. Note that I'm not even talking about physical destruction.

     I don't know how many times I've heard people from Turkey say "there was never a nation called Armenia". They do this with the Kurds too. Either there is a mass dropout rate in Turkey, or the government is making them learn bullsh*t.

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, in one point, you state that Turkey's strategy had been to remain silent and then say Ankara is for decades spreading money to counter diaspora thesis...

     I didn't say they were countering diaspora theses... I said they used resources to hush up the whole issue and make it into a taboo. At that time, the diaspora didn't even have a voice, and Turkey was trying to keep it that way (I'm talking about the Soviet era).

Originally posted by Kapikulu Normally, you(or states) don't feel the need to defend yourself against a claim which is a slander, or untrue claim in your book..Unless this slander or claim gets too common, coming to a point which would damage your reputation unrightfully.   It was not the strategy of Ankara...Ankara just didn't care about anything, that's why. Ankara was busy with some other stuff and with a huge mistake didn't feel the need to show his position in the manner

     You say they didn't care, I say they knew one day this issue can potentially bite them in the ass, so they tried to hush it up and make it taboo by punishing anyone who so much as spoke up about the plight of the Armenians. When that didn't work, thats when we start hearing this BS about Armenians slaughtering millions of Turks, and "civil wars" in which women and children were "relocated to prevent them from helping the enemy"

Originally posted by Kapikulu By the way, it is ironically quite interesting that, whenever a credible historian comes up and contradicts the Armenian theses, it becomes suddenly claimed that the historian is "bought" by Turkish government...

     Thats because those "credible" historians are on payrolls from the Turkish government. The most widely known historian who holds the Turkish argument, Justin McCarthy, gets paychecks from the Turkish government. The fact that he is outspoken hardly makes him credible.

Originally posted by Kapikulu I urge you to read underlined part again. Local legislative action: Law passed in a country...Like the Diaspora-motivated laws legislated in some countries.

     The reason those "diaspora-motivated laws" are passed is because Turkey doesn't want to have dialogue with Armenia, or with anyone that has anything to say about the Armenian question. They can't even talk about the issue in their own country without bringing people to trial, how do you expect them to talk about it with other nations?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 25-Mar-2007 at 00:30