Turks in Armenia?

There have been Turkic people in Gumru ( today yerevan ) before 1915s .

I have watched a documentary about Turks escaping from east of river Aras to Turkey border.Unfortunately the ones who couldnt escape have been killed.And i also heard that %45 of the Erivan population was Turkish before the war.


Edited by the_oz - 21-Mar-2007 at 16:50

I didnt understand you mean Armenians in Turkey?in my post i wrote about the Turks escaped from Armenia.

Couple of years ago, i saw a Turkish guy in TV who opened a doner restaurant in Yeravan.

Originally posted by Kerimoglu I really find it hard to believe

     Why? Armenians in Armenia don't have a grudge against Turks. Turkey just listens to the Armenian diaspora too much, and then assumes that Armenia holds the same position (they choose to have no relations whatsoever with Armenia, but they allow the diaspora to change their foreign policy...) The people in Armenia just want regular relations with Turkey.

     In Yerevan's central square I saw a Muslim woman covered from head to toe, no one looked at her twice. There is also a working mosque in Yerevan.

Originally posted by Kerimoglu But there are Armenians here in Azerbaijan

     Where?

Originally posted by Batu There were Turks in Armenia before the armenian state

     Hmmm, so there WAS an Armenia before the Armenian state was established

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 22-Mar-2007 at 21:37

Armenian Survival, U hit the target from an eye!!!

if there was no place called Armenia ; then modern Armenian state shouldnt have founded as its absent.

Originally posted by Batu if there was no place called Armenia ; then modern Armenian state shouldnt have founded as its absent

     But there WAS a place called Armenia before the modern Armenian state was established. Since the first independent Armenian state in 585 B.C., there has been a continual and significant Armenian presence in the region. In fact, in most countries (not including Turkey), "Armenia" is a term used to describe east Anatolia (check a few world atlases, and you'll see what I mean).

Originally posted by Kapikulu So the choice you are mentioning out there is the recognization...Of course, you don't expect Ankara to do such a thing

     I'm not just talking about the genocide thing. Even if they recognize it or not, they wouldn't allow Armenians to move back to their homeland in east Anatolia. You can't do much in Turkey if you have -ian at the end of your name (Armenian mountain climbers from any country are not allowed to climb Ararat, for instance). I know people who have visited east Anatolia, and when they told people they were Armenian, they were surprised to see that many people also claimed to be Armenian, but they told them not to tell anyone else. Basically they are a different person in front of a Turk, while their real side comes out in front of others. The hostile atmosphere for minorities is the reason for this.

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, instead of seeking a peaceful approach, the diaspora opted to spread money and use influence among different parliamentarians, academicians, people etc. in influential ranks, according to some theories. Turning it into a political warfare. And many European states using that as a tool against Turkey

     What do you mean "instead of a seeking a peaceful approach".... politics is  the only peaceful approach. Over 60% of our nation doesn't live in Armenia, so the diaspora is technically more representative of the Armenian people worldwide (again, one of the reasons why most of the nation lives in foreign countries is the fault of Ankara for not returning them their stolen property... many people actually have deeds to their property and when they visit Turkey they find either Turks or Kurds living in their homes). In fact it was Ankara that started taking political cheap-shots like this, denying property rights, erasing Armenian presence from the region's history, and all while there wasn't even an independent Armenia. Now that Armenians gained a voice in the past 10-15 years, and gained support from many foreign countries, Ankara accuses us of playing political games

     So the same thing you are accusing the diaspora of (spreading money, furthering their agenda) was being practiced by Ankara for decades, trying to cover up these issues and making them taboo. The diaspora simply figured that Turkey was more successful because they played politics rather than taking up arms, so they adopted the same strategy.

Originally posted by Kapikulu I don't say Ankara is not mistaken, though. Ankara's mistake was to always stay silent against the propaganda made all around the world...Ankara's mistake was to stay so silent while tens of its diplomatic representatives were murdered, Ankara's mistake, while not recognizing , not to explain its position and discuss things in a solid way while the Diasporic Propaganda was spread among everywhere.

     Staying silent wasn't a mistake by Ankara.... it was their strategy. They never imagined in the early days of the Turkish republic  that the Armenians would one day have a political voice of this calibur (it was unimaginable even 20 years ago). When Armenians, while not having an independent country, were fighting to raise awareness for the genocide from 1923-1991, Ankara never said a word, precisely for the reason that they didn't want anyone to know about these events. Now that we gained a political voice, they start making claims that Armenians actually murdered Turks by the millions.... but why weren't they making those claims for 70 years? Why were they silent about the deaths of *supposedly* millions of their countrymen at the hands of Armenians? It doesn't take a political scientist to figure that out. They only started talking when the issue was brought straight to their doorstep, from the mouths of all the nations they had relations with. Silence was their strategy, and now that there is no more silence, they make excuses, and they fund revisionist historians to come up with alternate theories of what really happened, and they put political and economic pressure on any nation that wants to recognize the events of WWI. You live in Turkey, you know better than me that these topics are taboo, and that the state wants everyone to be hush-hush about them. If their claims are true, then why have they been trying to hide the issue for 90 years?

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, if Armenian state has any concerns, they shall go to International Court of Justice(by offering it to Turkey as well), where local legislative actions are not taken into consideration.

     So what would that solve? The events of WWI culminated because of domestic/internal policies.

Originally posted by the oz And i also heard that %45 of the Erivan population was Turkish before the war

     Its possible. At the dawn of WWI Yerevan was the backwater of Armenia, a town of no more than 30,000 people. I know the Armenians were a majority in Yerevan before the war, so if 45% of the population was non-Armenian, it still makes sense. If you count Azeris and Tatars (which probably comprised most of the non-Armenian population) as Turks, then 45% is definitely possible. Also as mamikon said in the early 90's the Azeri population in Armenia mostly lived east of Lake Sevan, close to the Azeri border, and they fled when the fighting broke out.

Originally posted by Kapikulu First of all, there is not a "hostile" atmosphere within Turkey...There are many Armenians in Turkey, who are actually one of us..I had four Armenian friends at the high school...Were they treated differently? No...Would they be treated differently in any place of Turkey? No...Because of the very fact that they are human, like us, living in the same atmosphere with us, very similar to us.

     I know many of people who were born and raised in Turkey. They had to change their family names just to have an easier life (why do you think so many Armenians in Turkey have -oglu at the end of their names?). When they write in history books that the Armenians are traitors to Turkey, that they were all conspiring to destroy the nation, and that they deserved to be cast into the desert, what kind of mindset do you think that creates inside people?(do you think the fact most people think like this is just merely coincidence?) Do you know how many people believe that Armenian identity was created by the Russians? Maybe you and your friends had a lot of Armenian buddies, I'm not surprised, you seem like a normal guy. But its a big country, its not the same everywhere, and we are talking about a 90-year timespan. Remember how the police treated the guy who shot Dink? They treated a murderer as a hero, treated his victim as an enemy of the state, the whole world saw it, and you're telling me that there is no hostile atmosphere in Turkey. We are talking about today, present day, in front of everyone, not even 10 years ago, or 20, let alone 90+ years when there was no widespread international media.

Originally posted by Kapikulu It is true that there is not high thoughts regarding the Armenian state or diaspora activism, though...Think why...Shall not be so hard to find.

     As far as I'm concerned, the Turkish government is what made the diaspora into such a huge and motivated group. Don't forget, all the Armenians from France, America, Lebanon, Argentina, etc, all the diaspora "activists" are only living in those countries because of the Turkish government.

Originally posted by Kapikulu Politics can be peaceful or very hostile and bloody...Depends

     Yes but to say that what the diaspora does is hostile or bloody is far-fetched. Convincing a government through legislature to pass a bill sounds pretty civilized, wouldn't you say? I'm not talking about the terror groups, they operated when there was no independent Armenia, when we didn't have a voice. Plus, they were hardly representative of the diaspora.

Originally posted by Kapikulu If you think the houses from the beginning of 20th century is still existent except a few of them, you still live in some kind of a dreamworld.   So, is this property thing brand new? I couldn't have heard a more weird claim...So, Turkish parliament, go for the Turks' houses in Balkans, Arabia, Middle East, North Africa and request compensation from those 40 states...Owww.    Is there such a logic? One won't be the citizen of a state, however will have direct property rights...

     Maybe I wasn't clear. The claims were made within a few years of WWI. After WWI, there were thousands upon thousands of Armenians who were refugees in foreign countries, who still had the deed to their property that they owned in Turkey. They appealed to the Turkish government but to no avail. The houses are still standing, but they are occupied by Turks and Kurds. They were basically taken by the government and given to non-Armenians, and all the Armenians who appealed were denied the rights to their own property (its funny, because the official line in Turkey is that the deported Armenians were supposed to one day return to their homes in east Anatolia... this is proof that their claim was complete BS).

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, how can the Armenian presence be erased from region's history? Another part I didn't understand is that

     Read any history book or information which is provided by the state, and tell me how many times Armenia or Armenians are mentioned. Now, filter out all the innaccurate or disingeniune information, and tell me what you are left with. Note that I'm not even talking about physical destruction.

     I don't know how many times I've heard people from Turkey say "there was never a nation called Armenia". They do this with the Kurds too. Either there is a mass dropout rate in Turkey, or the government is making them learn bullsh*t.

Originally posted by Kapikulu So, in one point, you state that Turkey's strategy had been to remain silent and then say Ankara is for decades spreading money to counter diaspora thesis...

     I didn't say they were countering diaspora theses... I said they used resources to hush up the whole issue and make it into a taboo. At that time, the diaspora didn't even have a voice, and Turkey was trying to keep it that way (I'm talking about the Soviet era).

Originally posted by Kapikulu Normally, you(or states) don't feel the need to defend yourself against a claim which is a slander, or untrue claim in your book..Unless this slander or claim gets too common, coming to a point which would damage your reputation unrightfully.   It was not the strategy of Ankara...Ankara just didn't care about anything, that's why. Ankara was busy with some other stuff and with a huge mistake didn't feel the need to show his position in the manner

     You say they didn't care, I say they knew one day this issue can potentially bite them in the ass, so they tried to hush it up and make it taboo by punishing anyone who so much as spoke up about the plight of the Armenians. When that didn't work, thats when we start hearing this BS about Armenians slaughtering millions of Turks, and "civil wars" in which women and children were "relocated to prevent them from helping the enemy"

Originally posted by Kapikulu By the way, it is ironically quite interesting that, whenever a credible historian comes up and contradicts the Armenian theses, it becomes suddenly claimed that the historian is "bought" by Turkish government...

     Thats because those "credible" historians are on payrolls from the Turkish government. The most widely known historian who holds the Turkish argument, Justin McCarthy, gets paychecks from the Turkish government. The fact that he is outspoken hardly makes him credible.

Originally posted by Kapikulu I urge you to read underlined part again. Local legislative action: Law passed in a country...Like the Diaspora-motivated laws legislated in some countries.

     The reason those "diaspora-motivated laws" are passed is because Turkey doesn't want to have dialogue with Armenia, or with anyone that has anything to say about the Armenian question. They can't even talk about the issue in their own country without bringing people to trial, how do you expect them to talk about it with other nations?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 25-Mar-2007 at 00:30

Well my high school was in İstanbul. And i had Armenian, Azerbaijanian, Greek, Jewish, Arabic, Kurd, Ukrainian, Georgian classmates. They were all good to each other. (Only the Armenians and Azaeris were not talking but that was all nothing more) [And by the way i cant remember but yea i think thier name was finnished with -oglu]

Edited by erkut - 27-Mar-2007 at 06:58