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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a T
    Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 10:03
Originally posted by shinai

The balck see theory for the origin of the R1a1 is under the quetion.

the diversity of R1a1 in eastern europe shows an age of 1500 years between slavs, the diversity of R1a1 in esat of Iran(horasan) and central asia show the oldest. the people in Altai have a large number of R1a1, Almost all central asians have it, I donot  point it to only Turkic people but I point it to all central asia.
germanic Tribe also had absorbed the nomadic  blood when they were moving west. r1a1+horse means the could spread in a very fast way.
R1a1+ Indian woman=indian upper class, r1a1+middle eastern= east iranians, R1a1+european woman=slavs and nordics, and in my point R1A1+ central asian women= Turkmen, kirkiz, uzbek,kazak, and altai.
 
Your seriously in denial.
Please show the sources where it shows the origin of R1a1 is disputed.
given that its a subclade of R1a which itself is a subclade of R1.  Also like i said R1a1 is 10,000 years old in Europe not 1500 years old.
 
That mathematical equation is the most oxymoronic statement ive yet to read in relation to genetics.
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 10:14
So what you mean? do you want to say that the people of Altai and kirkizestan are immigrants from europe?
The diversity of a genetic marker helps to calculate the age of theat marker in one area, because that maker mutate in an avarage period.
So more diversity shows the longivity of that marker in an area.
 
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  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 10:21

The only reason that the natioanal geography has concluded that it is originated in europe was that they did not want to accept that a large group of europeans could have an asian origin. The reaserched to show that R1A1 has a Turkic origin needs money I can say that the reachest turkic country, is not intresed to provid money for that, the other smaller countries also are not reach enough.

So India and europe  ecah tries to suport its own theory, Indians tries to show that India was the origin, the question is that so why we donot have r1b in India? and Europeans like to show that europe was the motherland for I.E, people. All reaserch are biased by proving or denyimg the I.E, immigration, so how about Altai?
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 10:43
Your looking at it in too simple a way.  Its not the case that Altay and Kirgiz are from European men.  Its more a complicate thing. 
Humans migrate, and over time genes mutate. 
In the past around 20,000 years ago people living in Northern Eurasia were pushed down south as a result if the glaciers.  The time of the maximum extent is known as the LGM or last glacial maximum.  A area around the Steppe were not covered by ice and it is here, 10,000 years ago, north of the Black Sea that R1a1 originated.  This is all before Turkic and IE languages arised.  Now this does not mean that Turkic people or Central Asians are descendants of Europeans, since there was no concept of Europe at that time.  All it means is that the Y Chromosome Haplogroup R1a1 originated there.  Thats it.  Nothing to do with mongoloid caucasoid, nothing to do with Indo European or Turkic, nothing to do with blonde hair or dark hair, or blue eyes or brown eyes.  They are just genetic markers that are passed down from male genes.
Both R1a and R1b are most subclades of R1 which itself is derived from haplogoup R.
 
If you want to go further then haplogroup R.  It will probably make you happy to know that Haplogroup R appeared first in Northernwest Asia around 35,000 years ago.
Why stop there i think to myself.
Haplogroup R chromosomes are most closely related to haplogoup Q chromosomes.  Haplogroup Q is thought to have originated in Siberia 20,000 years ago.  Most Native Americans belong to Haplogroup Q3.  This mutation would have occured after carriers of Q went over to the Americas.
 
Now lets go further back in time.  The chromosomes R and Q are descended from Y chromosome haplogroup K.  now this is were it gets really interesting.  haplogroup K is thought to originate around 40,000 years ago.  In southern Central Asia.  Not only that, it includes the descendants of nearly everyone in Eurasia and the Americas.  If you take into account that R and Q are mutations of K. 
 
So you see Y chromosomes do not affect your ethnic identity nor your appearance or mental behaviour.  Which is why such an idea as Turkic blood or European blood is luducrious.
Im sure your not intentionally racist.  Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.  However i believe its your lack of knowledge that misleads your opinions about the notion of Turkic blood, as i know it certainly does for many others.
I hope that with more knowledge we can both agree that blood has nothing to do with ethnic affiliation.


Edited by AyKurt - 03-Mar-2007 at 10:47
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 10:53

Great post AyKurt!

Shinai now maybe you'll understand why "genetics" has little importance when it comes to nationhood/identity/ethnicity.
 
Seen as though these genetic variations occured 10-20,000 years ago and the oldest nations in existance today are no more than 5,000 years, we already had a highly mixed genetic pool, were migrating, inter-marrying and before todays nations were formed, during, after some fell and we still are.
 
Therefore we cannot look into the matter in a simplistic static manner.
 
A few thousand years ago, a family from Central Africa or South Eastern Asia may have migrated to Central Asia, if you were descended from this family your genetics could have some variations to others in the area but it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to your identity today.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 12:07
Well guys there is no such pure nation in the world. Untill today all nations had mixed. So whats big deal? Blood is not important in my opinion. The important thing is language, culture and feeling.
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 04:34
Originally posted by Spartakus

 I do not believe that all Turkic populations call themselves Turks.Neither all the natives of the areas from which they passed ,Central Asia,actually call them Turks.Afgans or Chinese never called Kushans Turks,and i doubt if Kushans did call themselves so.

Forgive me for being off-topic but according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushans,
Kushans (or at least their core people) were Indo-European and closely related to Tocharians.


The Kushan Empire (c. 1st3rd centuries) was a state that at its height, about 105250, stretched from what is now Tajikistan to Afghanistan, Pakistan and down into the Ganges river valley in northern India. The empire was created by the Kushan tribe of the Yuezhi confederation, an Indo-European people from the eastern Tarim Basin and Gansu, China, possibly related to the Tocharians. They had diplomatic contacts with Rome, Persia and China, and for several centuries were at the center of exchange between the East and the West.


Edited by omshanti - 05-Mar-2007 at 04:35
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 20:21
It is very likely that I just didn't understand the discussion, but what I do not understand is how can you consider as the same ethnicity Yakuts and Turkish people for example?
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by Anton

It is very likely that I just didn't understand the discussion, but what I do not understand is how can you consider as the same ethnicity Yakuts and Turkish people for example?
 
 
 
Indeed, they are quite different genetically from other Turkic groups, however, ethnicity isn't based on the genetics.
 
Culture also changes due to the religion, influence from neighbouring groups etc. However, you can always trace deep cultural root which is quite unique among a group of people with common ethnicity.
 
Language is another factor for defining a group of people's ethnicity. However, language dominance due to ruling from different groups might result in adoption of a new language, although this process is very long and there should be large number of mixing between the two groups.  Anway, now language is the main factor for self indentity of a group.  
 
History is the most important factor for a group of people's ethnicity IMO.  People can trace their historical roots through legends. You might find two groups who speak two different languages, quite different culture, but quite shared early history.
 
Yaquts call themselves Saqa. According to Oghuzkhan legend, Saqlap is one of the earliest Turkic tribes.
 
Yaquts have similar rituals as those of the Turkic Shamanists.
 
Yaquts speak a Turkic language, and identify themselves as Turkic.
 
Most importantly, Yaquts have legend to say their ancestors came from Altai region, and mixed with the indiginous local people.
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 08:14
Hm, Barbar. Ethnicity is determined by the nations choice mostly. The fact that Yakuts are Turkic in language does not make them belonging to a single nation or ethnicity with Turkic language. They didn't hear much about Turkish people for example why should they want to form with them a single nation? If you apply your logic to Slavonic nations then Bulgarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats and others are the same nation. Recent events in Yugoslavia had proven how wrong is that sort of conclusions.
 Believe me Yakuts are much more different in culture with Turks then Bulgarians for example.


Edited by Anton - 11-Mar-2007 at 08:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2007 at 07:04
Hello !
This is my first post, so first of all, thank you all for existing ! I need this kind of sharing thoughts and all.
I found this place while digging for some information about haplogroups.
I read all of you and there is only one thing I would like to say about this "DNA" point of view of the world : before this kind of approach, History books were all refering to the Turkic world like a destabilising strange "thing" in the order of things. I know the word is not very right as this "turkic world" had so many names... even Turks don't know all the names they were living with or "disapeared", like "isolate"phenomens in the history of mankind. A mankind only seen and analysed though indo-european, a bit of Egyptician point of view.
So, to make a long story short, lets say that this approach, at least... has a real importance in showing that "Turks"(language and people) story began as every people's story: in the beginning of mankind. If some people took boats to go to America, long long before, when the world was like an Ice cube, some people ... walked to America. This is a story of brotherhood. A story of people mixing long before people politized History, long before they even found a way to express their existence, or mark their place, like "Empires" loved to do. No man in this world is coming "out of the blue", like an immaculate conception. Behind every man, every language, there is a long, very long history. Science and Facts are above every bigotry. If the world today is a shame, what I love in history is that the existence of a common tree is for me a beautiful and peaceful concept... if History is not seen as a bone to hold on, like an official point of view some don't want to see reversed. (sorry, my english is a bit poor) 


Edited by barisaa - 18-May-2007 at 07:05
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  Quote BAWIR$AQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2007 at 21:51
Karakalpaks, Kazaks, Kyrgyzes, Turkmens, Uyghurs, and Ozbeks are all Turks because their lands are collectively known as TURKISTAN (literallu, the "Land of Turks", "Turks' Land").

TURKIYE is just a European-style equivalent for TURKISTAN.

"Malım janımnı sadağası, Janım arımnı sadağası"

"Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor"
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2007 at 06:42
Originally posted by BAWIR$AQ

Karakalpaks, Kazaks, Kyrgyzes, Turkmens, Uyghurs, and Ozbeks are all Turks because their lands are collectively known as TURKISTAN (literallu, the "Land of Turks", "Turks' Land").

TURKIYE is just a European-style equivalent for TURKISTAN.
 
No, geographical region is not the only criterium for ethnic affiliation. What about Tatars? Aren't they Turks? What about Altai, Tuwa etc Sebirian Turks? Their land isn't called Turkistan.  
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote BAWIR$AQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2007 at 15:39
I didn't say anything about the criterium of Turkicness.

I just showed that Turkistan and Turkiye are essentially synonyms.

"Malım janımnı sadağası, Janım arımnı sadağası"

"Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor"
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 06:59
The R1a1 is the Markers of the Scythians( Goths). In ancient times only the ghoths (scythians ) were called turks.
Later they were joined in central Asia by Turkoman (meaning Master of the Turk) who were mongoloid the Chinese are Han (O haplogroup) they displaced the ancient Chinese from china ( the Hmong) who were C haplogroup.
Some of the Hmong ran away north into Mongolia ( as Mongols= compare Hmong to Mongols and see they are both C!)
 
The Current Europeans where actually the Ancient Turks (Tukarian language and culture The Kurgan culture) they are the people known in the Bible as Gog and Magog ( Gog means blue because they had blue eyes!)
 
They used to eat their dead and the dead of their enemies to survive, and that is why they developed the blue eyes. They did not have agriculture because Central Asia and Ukraune were swamps, so they only hunted but they had to face famine every year because they did not have Agriculture (to preserve Wheat and other plants for the famine), so they had to eat their dead and some times drink the blood of their victims instead of eating them ( like milking the cow).
That is why the Current Europeans where the Vampires!
 
R1a1 and R1b are sister clads that branched out from R1 so they had to come from one origin (Central Asia), However the Goths (R1b) moved to west Europe while R1a1 moved to East Euripe (Slavs and current Russians and Ukranians). You can hardly differentiate between a little girl from Ukraine for example and a litte girl from England because they are both Gog and Magog (blue eyes and Blond hair and same Face Caucasian features and elongated STALE face).
The Seljuks fathers of Turkey and Ottoman Empire were a branch from the Khazars (The Huns cousins of Goths) and the Seljuk had green eyes and blond hair ( these are the real turks who established the Ottoman Empire).
Turkey contains the Majority of Greek blood because all Greek left Greece in Ancient times ( Alexander) and settled in the Helenic areas (but mainly turkey). The Trojans (fathers of the Romans of Rome ) also in Turkey near Stanpool (Constantinople) Troy near there and near Mount of Olympus where the Uttoman Empire started (Uthman son Of Urtagl) who married the daughter of Markus Ogli and his brother ( two Greek knights working for the Byzantians) who converted to Islam and married the sisters of Uthan and from this the family Otomanli was established (80% greek blood and 20% turkic Blood), When Muhammad The Conquerer took Constantipole he declared him self Caeasar simply because he was a descendent of the greek lineage of the Caeasars of the Byzantians.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 07:21
Originally posted by adnanmuf

The R1a1 is the Markers of the Scythians( Goths). In ancient times only the ghoths (scythians ) were called turks.
Later they were joined in central Asia by Turkoman (meaning Master of the Turk) who were mongoloid the Chinese are Han (O haplogroup) they displaced the ancient Chinese from china ( the Hmong) who were C haplogroup.
Some of the Hmong ran away north into Mongolia ( as Mongols= compare Hmong to Mongols and see they are both C!)
 
The Current Europeans where actually the Ancient Turks (Tukarian language and culture The Kurgan culture) they are the people known in the Bible as Gog and Magog ( Gog means blue because they had blue eyes!)
 
They used to eat their dead and the dead of their enemies to survive, and that is why they developed the blue eyes. They did not have agriculture because Central Asia and Ukraune were swamps, so they only hunted but they had to face famine every year because they did not have Agriculture (to preserve Wheat and other plants for the famine), so they had to eat their dead and some times drink the blood of their victims instead of eating them ( like milking the cow).
That is why the Current Europeans where the Vampires!
 
R1a1 and R1b are sister clads that branched out from R1 so they had to come from one origin (Central Asia), However the Goths (R1b) moved to west Europe while R1a1 moved to East Euripe (Slavs and current Russians and Ukranians). You can hardly differentiate between a little girl from Ukraine for example and a litte girl from England because they are both Gog and Magog (blue eyes and Blond hair and same Face Caucasian features and elongated STALE face).
The Seljuks fathers of Turkey and Ottoman Empire were a branch from the Khazars (The Huns cousins of Goths) and the Seljuk had green eyes and blond hair ( these are the real turks who established the Ottoman Empire).
Turkey contains the Majority of Greek blood because all Greek left Greece in Ancient times ( Alexander) and settled in the Helenic areas (but mainly turkey). The Trojans (fathers of the Romans of Rome ) also in Turkey near Stanpool (Constantinople) Troy near there and near Mount of Olympus where the Uttoman Empire started (Uthman son Of Urtagl) who married the daughter of Markus Ogli and his brother ( two Greek knights working for the Byzantians) who converted to Islam and married the sisters of Uthan and from this the family Otomanli was established (80% greek blood and 20% turkic Blood), When Muhammad The Conquerer took Constantipole he declared him self Caeasar simply because he was a descendent of the greek lineage of the Caeasars of the Byzantians.
 
I'm afraid this post has to do some things with the history as we know it but unfortunately very few. Please note that this section is called "Ethnic History of Central Asia" not "Historical Amusement."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 07:40
I am talking about the sunject of central Asia (that the turks descended from Central asia or not), and who was who in central asia 3000 years ago.
The existance of R1b in 40% of Ugurs and in selkups 50% and also R1a1 in northern central siberia among ancient non slavic nations (altai) also proof that both R1a1 and r1b (current Europeans Eastern and Western) came from Central Asia (Scythia land of the blue eyed Goths (R1a1 and R1b)
 
Also the revealing of mummies of the Tarim basin in China of people of European features and dress and inside the Kurgan tombs with Ra1a DNA is also more proof of that!!!
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