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It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a T
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a T
    Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:37
Originally posted by AyKurt

 
Shinai, in my opinion you have a sickness.  However, please can you tell me what kind of blood that makes someone a Turk is.  Sakha?  Khakas?  Altay?  Uyghur?  Khazak?  They are all Turk(ic) yet have considerable differences in genetic make up.  So what is this blood that makes someone a Turk.
 
In my opinion you are only a rum pozintisi,  A turk at leasts needs to have a central asian markers, I do have it, do not be disappointed,  by a chance 5% you may have it tooWink.
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:41
Originally posted by shinai

Originally posted by AyKurt

 
Shinai, in my opinion you have a sickness.  However, please can you tell me what kind of blood that makes someone a Turk is.  Sakha?  Khakas?  Altay?  Uyghur?  Khazak?  They are all Turk(ic) yet have considerable differences in genetic make up.  So what is this blood that makes someone a Turk.
 
In my opinion you are only a rum pozintisi,  A turk at leasts needs to have a central asian markers, I do have it, do not be disappointed,  by a chance 5% you may have it tooWink.
 
Brilliant come back lol.  Think what you like you do not know me Wink.
 
You still havent asnwered my question though.  What is this Turkish blood that one has to have to be a Turk.  If you were less ignorant you would understand that genetic variation among Turkic peoples is very diverse.  Even among Turkic peoples around the Altay Sayan and Siberia regions.  Please be more specific than just central asian markers. 
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:42

I understand why the Turks of Turkey only consider the self identity to define a Turk, this identity is injected in their brain at school. In english it means that there many people in turkey from Greek, Arab, Kurdish and Persian origin but we teach them to call themselves Turk.
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:51
Originally posted by shinai

I understand why the Turks of Turkey only consider the self identity to define a Turk, this identity is injected in their brain at school. In english it means that there many people in turkey from Greek, Arab, Kurdish and Persian origin but we teach them to call themselves Turk.

 
mate your starting to sound more and more fanatical.  You seriously do not understand ethnogenesis nor can you differentiate between genes and ethnicity. 
Those ancestors of greek arab kurdish and persian origin would have had ancestors of non greek arab kurdish and persian origin.  The cultural changes in Anatolia do not always match any genetic changes.  So the "Turkish speaking Greek" is no more Greek than the "Greek speaking Hittite" is Hittite.
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 20:55
Bud the central asian genetic pool is mainly R(r1a+R1b+r2), N, and C.
R1a1 is almost 60% between the people of Altai, N represents the Finno Ogrians and C the mongolians.
R1a1 has been extracted from smoe of the bones, found  in Kurgans.
 
central asians are moslty brachiocephal or round head but meditranian are long headed. 
so a turk at least should have a central asian root, you are right a turk could be a turkified scythian or sarmatian, or a mongol but he needs to have a root in central asia and this process should have been done there. Meditranian farming culture is too far from nomadic central asian one. Their religion need to reflect the praying form ancestral souls, in sunni Islam there is no sighn of shamanis, but you know the other side of islam (shie) is different.
 A light bone Turkic speaking greek form Izmir   is not a greek anymore but please be rational, how could he be the decendent of brutal central asian warriors, which his short and strong body is designed for the cold asian lands.
 
 
 
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 22:15
Friends, experiences proves that when forumers statrt to call each other "mate", "bud" and so on, it means they are about to get violent and call each other names... So please keep cool. Besides, we are soo far from the original topic (Turkic Empires) that this very interesting discussion ought to be move to another thread. If you want I can open one for you.

Edited by Maharbbal - 02-Mar-2007 at 11:48
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 08:02
Shinai
religion need to reflect the praying form ancestral souls
 
Why do you think they have so many Kumbet/Turbe's and local people's think they have some powers.
 
 
Shinai
I understand why the Turks of Turkey only consider the self identity to define a Turk, this identity is injected in their brain at school. In english it means that there many people in turkey from Greek, Arab, Kurdish and Persian origin but we teach them to call themselves Turk.
 
LOL
WoW you really dropped your mask didn't you.
 
Yeah, they go into school a Greek or Arab and come out a Turk, these schools are like mass-production factories they take a raw element and change it into a product LOL
 
Were all robots guys, genetic equations, if we don't have the right "blood" Dead we put in different classifications.
 
 What is Turk blood? could you please tell me, you really portray yourself as a total and utter racist...your views just remind me of that ousted Shah who couldn't accept there were Turks in Iran and just called them embarrased Persian wannabe Turks...very pathetic.
 
The only blood that exists in human's is "human blood".
 
The only race that exists is the "human race".
 
Nations are just linguistic-ethnic groups which formed in disparsed geographical regions they are NOT seperate species, they do not have pink, yellow and purple blood, they are all human.
 
These linguistic-ethnic groups over time rose, fell, spread, created cultures, civillisations. Generally what nations have in common is language, identity, historical and social bonds, cultural similarities etc what they do NOT necessarilly have in common is "genetics".
 
Seen as though the oldest nations today even counting their proto-nations are no more than 5000 year's old that's if we count Egyptions some way a continuation of the Ancient Egyptions, then genetics really means very little. Genetic variations take place over thousands of years so its clear we were all highly mixed and not "pure" when todays nations were being formed.
 
For example, what is English blood? there were natives, Celts, Vikings, Saxons, Angels, Normans, Romans who all came to these shores. So what makes an English man English? is it merely genetics, no ofcourse not, language, culture, traditions, identity, history etc all are far more important.
 
What is French blood?
What is Arab blood?
What is Turk blood?
What is Persian blood?
 
If somebody who claims to be French, Arab, Turk, Persian doesn't fit the "CRITERIA" are they then deamed non-French/Arab/Turk/Persian. You see the argument your using can be used against any other nation. You can go and start a Spanish Inquisition against all the above but it's equally as ridiculous as what your doing now. We could all go and start writting, hey your not an Arab your genetics don't match, you've got blonde hair and blue eyes, your too dark, your too white bla bla bla
 
Is this really how you think? are you this ignorant? if you lived 60 years ago I'm sure you would have had a great time having these conversations with Nazi type's but today such ARCHAIC ways of looking into human society is discredited.
 
This racism is not wanted on the forum
 
 
People like you have "polluted" the Steppe forum with this nonsense for far too long, the Admin have requested it be stopped.
 
You are OBSESSED with genetics/racial purity/blood bla bla bla, life's too short you are what you are you are, no need for inferiority or superiority complexes, if you comfortable with your identity you don't need to worry about such racist issues and can live happily. 


Edited by Bulldog - 02-Mar-2007 at 08:05
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 11:51
Here continue the conversation started in the '16 empires thread'
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 11:54
Haha, I love that title, Thumbs%20Up.
 
 
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 11:57
Originally posted by shinai

Bud the central asian genetic pool is mainly R(r1a+R1b+r2), N, and C.
R1a1 is almost 60% between the people of Altai, N represents the Finno Ogrians and C the mongolians.
R1a1 has been extracted from smoe of the bones, found  in Kurgans.
 
*frustratingly shakes head*
 Come on.  Did you miss any other Y chromosome haplogroups?  I dont know why im even bothering but just so you dont mislead others who may not know about haplogroup distribution i will.
 
Look at this map of the distribution of R1a and R1b
 
 
haplogroup R1a  and R1b is common throughout ALL Western Eurasia.  As you can see, according to your definition of who are and who are not Turks, Norwegians are more Turkish than Turks, Uighurs Kazakhs.  In fact if you take into account Rla and R1b then Europeans are more Turkic than Turkic peoples themselves.  Including Altay.  As for R2, this is getting funnier, its distributed throughout South Asia, Caucasus and Central Asia.  Its highest frequency is found in South Asia (i.e from Baluchistan to Bengal and from Hunza to Sri Lanka), forming around 10 - 15%  in India.  Its found at its highest frequency in the Sinti Roma, where its around 53%.
Haplogroup N is the ancestral group for N1, N2, and N3.  N1 is found among Northern Chinese, Korean and some Turkic peoples and even then at low frequencies.  N2 is common among Northern Samoyedic peoples.  N3 is distributed moderately throughout Northern Eurasia.  Haplogroup C is found at its highest frequencies in Mongolia, The Russian Far East, Polynesia and Australia and its most diverse in India thus its assumed C evolved originally in South Asia.
 
So you have failed to show any evidence of this mysterious Turkish blood (hardly suprising LOL), back to the drawing boards for you i think.  Instead of pursuing this f*cked up theory of yours why not just bloody educate yourself?
 
central asians are moslty brachiocephal or round head but meditranian are long headed. 
  Sorry but i have absolutely no idea what you mean.  If you mean brachycephaly then  im not aware that this condition is common among Turkic populations.
 
so a turk at least should have a central asian root, you are right a turk could be a turkified scythian or sarmatian, or a mongol
never said that
 
 
but he needs to have a root in central asia and this process should have been done there.
Yes now your starting to understand.  CULTURE NOT GENES
 
Meditranian farming culture is too far from nomadic central asian one. Their religion need to reflect the praying form ancestral souls, in sunni Islam there is no sighn of shamanis, but you know the other side of islam (shie) is different.
  So only shia can be turk now? Confused  Folk traditions are quite strong in Turkey, and also Kazakhs and other Central Asian Turks are Sunni yet still retain alot of Folk traditions including shamanic customs.
 
A light bone Turkic speaking greek form Izmir   is not a greek anymore but please be rational, how could he be the decendent of brutal central asian warriors, which his short and strong body is designed for the cold asian lands.
Ehmm, maybe because such a thing as a light boned Turkic speaking Greek does not exist.
Your sickness is an evil that has worked its way into your soul.  Fight it and be proud.
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 11:59
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
Shinai
I understand why the Turks of Turkey only consider the self identity to define a Turk, this identity is injected in their brain at school. In english it means that there many people in turkey from Greek, Arab, Kurdish and Persian origin but we teach them to call themselves Turk.
 
LOL
WoW you really dropped your mask didn't you.
 
Yeah, they go into school a Greek or Arab and come out a Turk, these schools are like mass-production factories they take a raw element and change it into a product LOL
 
Were all robots guys, genetic equations, if we don't have the right "blood" Dead we put in different classifications.
 
 What is Turk blood? could you please tell me, you really portray yourself as a total and utter racist...your views just remind me of that ousted Shah who couldn't accept there were Turks in Iran and just called them embarrased Persian wannabe Turks...very pathetic.
 
The only blood that exists in human's is "human blood".
 
The only race that exists is the "human race".
 
Nations are just linguistic-ethnic groups which formed in disparsed geographical regions they are NOT seperate species, they do not have pink, yellow and purple blood, they are all human.
 
These linguistic-ethnic groups over time rose, fell, spread, created cultures, civillisations. Generally what nations have in common is language, identity, historical and social bonds, cultural similarities etc what they do NOT necessarilly have in common is "genetics".
 
Seen as though the oldest nations today even counting their proto-nations are no more than 5000 year's old that's if we count Egyptions some way a continuation of the Ancient Egyptions, then genetics really means very little. Genetic variations take place over thousands of years so its clear we were all highly mixed and not "pure" when todays nations were being formed.
 
For example, what is English blood? there were natives, Celts, Vikings, Saxons, Angels, Normans, Romans who all came to these shores. So what makes an English man English? is it merely genetics, no ofcourse not, language, culture, traditions, identity, history etc all are far more important.
 
What is French blood?
What is Arab blood?
What is Turk blood?
What is Persian blood?
 
If somebody who claims to be French, Arab, Turk, Persian doesn't fit the "CRITERIA" are they then deamed non-French/Arab/Turk/Persian. You see the argument your using can be used against any other nation. You can go and start a Spanish Inquisition against all the above but it's equally as ridiculous as what your doing now. We could all go and start writting, hey your not an Arab your genetics don't match, you've got blonde hair and blue eyes, your too dark, your too white bla bla bla
 
Is this really how you think? are you this ignorant? if you lived 60 years ago I'm sure you would have had a great time having these conversations with Nazi type's but today such ARCHAIC ways of looking into human society is discredited.
 
This racism is not wanted on the forum
 
 
People like you have "polluted" the Steppe forum with this nonsense for far too long, the Admin have requested it be stopped.
 
You are OBSESSED with genetics/racial purity/blood bla bla bla, life's too short you are what you are you are, no need for inferiority or superiority complexes, if you comfortable with your identity you don't need to worry about such racist issues and can live happily. 
 
Well said Clap
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a Turk
 
UBERTURK or SUPERTURK(sonds like Cuneyt Arkin to meBig%20smile)
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 12:48
Eyewitness reports state that the sighting of the Turk was in Scotland.  This, according to geneticists, would not be unusual.
Professor Shinai, an eminent genetologist, confirmed that the Turkic Haplogroup R is found in about 80% of the Scottish population.
 
The Professor said earlier yesterday "Blood is the most important thing makes somebody a Turk...A turk at leasts needs to have a central asian markers...the central asian genetic pool is mainly R(r1a+R1b+r2), N, and C...so a turk at least should have a central asian root, you are right a turk needs to have a root in central asia."
 
Confirming that the Scots are not only Turks but are also rooted in Central Asia.
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Ooo Celtic Turks Wacko
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Dr. Aykurt could youjust look at the altai region and kirkiz people, what do you see R1a1 the marker of the brutal nomds od the steppes.Slavs and indians are mixed with steppe riders. Also you did not get the point a man with R , N, or c is originated in steppes, it is a bigger collection, Turks are a subgroup of this one, but how could be some body with middle eastern j marker or balkan I marker could be decendent of central asians?
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Shinai
of the brutal nomds od the steppes.
 
Brutal? Confused
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:01

Well the Abbasid's bought huge numbes of Turks in to protect the Caliph, they were based in Samarra Iraq, later they formed the TullunOglu dynasty in Egypt.

Later Oghuz Turk migrations.

Further Turkic migrations fleeing the Mongols.

Further Turkic migrations during the Ilkhanids

More mass migrations during the Timurid era

and so on...
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Shouldn't this immigrant leave a genetic sign?
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 08:01
Originally posted by shinai

Dr. Aykurt could youjust look at the altai region and kirkiz people, what do you see R1a1 the marker of the brutal nomds od the steppes.Slavs and indians are mixed with steppe riders. Also you did not get the point a man with R , N, or c is originated in steppes, it is a bigger collection, Turks are a subgroup of this one, but how could be some body with middle eastern j marker or balkan I marker could be decendent of central asians?
 
No you cant just look at one specific region since the Y chromosome haplogroup R and its subclades R1a and R1b are spread much further so its not exclusive to that region nor the descendants of ancestors who lived in that region.  If you want to argue that its a Turkic haplogroup or that you can only be a Turk if you carry R1a then YOU have to show its exclusively Turkic.  Its not.
R1a1 is spread throughout Central and Western Asia and in Northern and Eastern Europe particularly among Slavic peoples.
Also neither R1a1 nor R1b originated in Central Asia.
The carriers of R1a1 are believed to originally have been people living north of the Black Sea in the Ukraine about 10,000 years ago.  Most likely descendants of R1a who where pushed down there where it was a refuge area from the ice glaciers.
Its in this area where it originated, and since the Indo Iranians passed through this area when they migrated east and south to Iran and India then it is for this reason that they carried the R1a1 marker to those regions, not because they mixed with central asian nomads. 
It isnt only associated with CA Steppe nomads but also with Brahmins in India, Slavs in Eastern Europe and also Germanic populations and Icelanders.  Yes Icelanders.  Around 23% of Icelanders have the marker for R1a1.
 
Look all this goes to show is Haplogroup spread has little to do with ethnic and cultural affiliations. 
 
As for J, it has the subclades J1 and J2.  J1 is rare in Turkey, its found in its highest frequencies in the Middle East, Ethiopia and North Africa.  Bedouin Arabs have the highest frequencies of this marker in the Negev it accounts for 82%.
 
J2 is found in 27% of Turks.  Its also a similar number for Georgians, 26.7%.   Its also at around 20-30% among Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Albanians and Italians.  Among Indian Upper castes its found at around 14% and 18% in Dravidian upper castes. 
So the Haplogroup J is found in a defined region from North Africa to South Asia and from the Caucasus and Southern Europe to the Horn of Africa. 
The presence of this marker among Turks is not higher than in other non-Semitic speaking peoples so to claim Anatolian Turks are not Turks is like saying Italians are not indoeuropean, or that Armenians are not and so on.  Again its counters your notion that ethnicity is defined by blood.
 
I said earlier in the Gagauz thread that cultural spread isnt always consistent with genetic flow, and its a similar picture practically in every ethnically diverse region in the world.  This is further proof of that.


Edited by AyKurt - 03-Mar-2007 at 08:03
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 09:42

The balck see theory for the origin of the R1a1 is under the quetion.

the diversity of R1a1 in eastern europe shows an age of 1500 years between slavs, the diversity of R1a1 in esat of Iran(horasan) and central asia show the oldest. the people in Altai have a large number of R1a1, Almost all central asians have it, I donot  point it to only Turkic people but I point it to all central asia.
germanic Tribe also had absorbed the nomadic  blood when they were moving west. r1a1+horse means the could spread in a very fast way.
R1a1+ Indian woman=indian upper class, r1a1+middle eastern= east iranians, R1a1+european woman=slavs and nordics, and in my point R1A1+ central asian women= Turkmen, kirkiz, uzbek,kazak, and altai.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by shinai - 03-Mar-2007 at 09:43
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