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    Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 08:51
In the Old Testament of the Bible Samson was forbidden to drink wine or else his strength would be taken away by God
 
and alchohol is forbidden in the Islamic religion because there are many parts of Islam that are similar to Judaism and to Christianity (Drunkenness is clearly a sin (I Timothy 3:8).)
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 13:06
Aelfgifu
I am sorry your educational system failed you, but we did get proper education on the subject. Not just two hours, but a whole project over several weeks. Not only focusing on 'technical' bits but also on how to say no, how to respect your own body and the importance of love as opposed to sex.
 
You were educated in Netherlands? I read that they have a very good educational program regarding alcohol, drugs, sex and in the recent rankings of living standards/happiness/social stability etc Netherlands was among the top countries.
 
Unfortunately U.S.A and Britain wern't, we could take some tips from our neighbours across the sea Wink 
 
Aelfgifu
You are right, binge-drinking is awful. But to completely prohibit alcohol (which is what we were talking about), because a few cannot deal with it is weird. To make the car comparison (I know you dont buy it, but I like it Tongue), there are a few people who will never learn to drive safely and resposibly. This does not mean we should prohibit cars for the rest of the population, does it?
 
I know binge-drinking is big in the UK, but that does not mean everybody else does it...
 
 
Firstly we cannot compare driving a car to the issues that can be caused by alcohol.
 
Alcohol abuse is Europes third biggest killer
 
 
Secondly I don't support any ban or prohibition as it doesn't actually solve anything. Cannabis is Illegal here but if you walk down the road people smoke it as common as cigarrete's in some areas. Instead of the government regulating it and making money from it, millions are spent chasing drug-dealers, pushing it underground and fuelling a criminal world.
 
If Alcohol was banned exactly the same would happen, if people want something they'll find a way to get it.
 
You don't have binge drinking in Holland? it's getting pretty common here and I think in the U.S
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 17:19
^
Common is an understatement, it is epidemic. The car analogy is wrong,  the driver acts in full consciousness while the drunkard in an induced state. A perfectly reasonable man with most favorable manners towards his wife may may lash out at her in a state of drunkenness. My friend runs a restaurant and you get zillion of stories of how perfectly good people under the negative influence of drink cause damage, shout vitriol, only to return next morning in the most humbled fashion offering their deepest apologies.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 18:51
Originally posted by malizai_

^
Common is an understatement, it is epidemic. The car analogy is wrong,  the driver acts in full consciousness while the drunkard in an induced state. A perfectly reasonable man with most favorable manners towards his wife may may lash out at her in a state of drunkenness. My friend runs a restaurant and you get zillion of stories of how perfectly good people under the negative influence of drink cause damage, shout vitriol, only to return next morning in the most humbled fashion offering their deepest apologies.


I hear plenty of stories about sober men beating their wives too. Hell, domestic abuse was the platform the Temperance Movement used to get alcohol banned here in the States back in the twenties. They were really disappointed to find out that, contrary to their unfounded beliefs, their husbands did not stop beating them, even though they stopped drinking. Prohibition was repealed 12 years later.

The Samson argument doesn't really hold up in court either. He was a Nazarite. His circumstances were different. He also wasn't allowed to cut his hair. I don't see a correlation between the restrictions placed on Samson and the usual restriction placed on other Israelites.

Paul and Timothy etc. may cite drunkeness as a sin, but last I checked, neither of them was Jesus of Nazareth. Or wrote a Gospel (Paul wrote the Epistles). As has been said before, Paul and other writers may have been against intoxication (not alcohol, per se), but the Big Guy was turning water to wine at local shindigs. From the evidence, He seemed pretty cool with it. Heck, He even spread the good news!

During the Middle Ages, monasteries were the place where the majority of alcohol was produced! Why do you think the Vikings always sacked the Churches first? Sure, there was loot... but there were also entire cellars and silos full of the finest liqueurs, wines, and ales that Western Europe had to offer! The Church has never condoned alcohol (though some Protestant branches have).

Anyways, enough about this. We're not argueing whether or not alcohol is 'good' or 'evil'... I'm wondering about the theological reasons why the Qur'an forbids alcohol. If it's the word of God, it's a safe bet that there is some argument better than "it spawns domestic abuse and drunk drivers (of which I doubt Mohammed saw any, not counting camels)." I mean the real, philosophical, theological arguments against the use of alcohol in direct contradiction to the other Abrahamic faiths. I am under the impression that the Qur'an explicitly states that alcohol is haram?

To be more specific about that last statement: In Matthew 26:27, "The He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of thsi fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

This is a good example of theological evidence for the use of alcohol in Christianity. Not only does Jesus himself drink, but he states that there will be wine-drinking in Heaven, and that he will participate. Anything that the Son of God does, and that will be allowed in Heaven, is surely smiled upon in Christian texts.

That's the kind of evidence I want to see, my friends. Not arguments for or against drunkeness, but theological debates about alcohol, and cultural embrace of, or aversion towards, it.
Cheers.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Bulldog

I don't support any ban or prohibition as it doesn't actually solve anything. Cannabis is Illegal here but if you walk down the road people smoke it as common as cigarrete's in some areas. Instead of the government regulating it and making money from it, millions are spent chasing drug-dealers, pushing it underground and fuelling a criminal world.
 
 
Exactly why a majority of the Dutch population wants the stuff legalised over here as well. Unfortunately, we cannot because the EU is blocking it. Weve got the French to thank for thatConfused. A bit hypocritical, because our borders are swamped with Frenchmen coming here just to buy it...
 
If Alcohol was banned exactly the same would happen, if people want something they'll find a way to get it.
 
 
As has been proven by the Americans in the twenties. Not only did people keep drinking, the prohibition of alcohol also gave the underworld the most perfect opportunity to go professional. Organised crime in the US is at least in part a direct consequence of the alcohol prohibition...
 
You don't have binge drinking in Holland? it's getting pretty common here and I think in the U.S
 
 
Of course we have binge-drinkers. You get them everywhere when alcohol and stupidity comes together. But not as common, I think, it is more concentrated in certain groups. Most people I know here go to a pub to have a good time, have some drinks, have some discussions, have some more drinks etc. and ocassionally find that it is 4 in the morning and they are drunk. In the UK, I very much got the impression people went to the pub to get drunk, and fast too... Different attitude towards drinking I guess...
 
 
Originally posted by Brian

During the Middle Ages, monasteries were the place where the majority of alcohol was produced! Why do you think the Vikings always sacked the Churches first? Sure, there was loot... but there were also entire cellars and silos full of the finest liqueurs, wines, and ales that Western Europe had to offer!
 
Interesting theory... Never heard that one mentioned by an expert though... My guess the isloated locations along the coast, the presence of lots of gold and silver and a large body of men who have sworn not to use violence not even to defend themselves had more to do with it... Monasteries in Northern Europe probably only had weak beer and some cider anyway. No grapes, you see, and no distilling tecniques...
 
Now in the later Middle Ages, monasteries were the hub of brewing and yeasting, but by then the Vikings had lost their wild oats...


Edited by Aelfgifu - 28-Feb-2007 at 08:31

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It's not a professional theory... it's my own! And it makes a hell of a lot of sense, too. I mean, hell, they're Vikings. You really think the word 'Viking' wasn't just Finnish for 'ambitious drunks'? I'm looking into the linguistics of the matter... I'll report back soonWink
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Originally posted by Sparten

Well put Sparten. Is there a traditional pakistani alcholic drink?
Well there is traditional mead that is made in the Punjab farmlands come harvest time. And the Chitralis and other N Area people make themselves alcohol out of fruit.
 
We earn a lot of dough exporting alcohol.
 
Cheers guys and keep it up.
 
 
I mean, something like Mexican Tequila, French Wine, Turkish Raki.
 
Musharraf should make an effort to introduce a national drink of Pakistan to the World.
 
 
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Originally posted by The Hidden Face

Originally posted by Sparten

Well put Sparten. Is there a traditional pakistani alcholic drink?
Well there is traditional mead that is made in the Punjab farmlands come harvest time. And the Chitralis and other N Area people make themselves alcohol out of fruit.
 
We earn a lot of dough exporting alcohol.
 
Cheers guys and keep it up.
 
 
I mean, something like Mexican Tequila, French Wine, Turkish Raki.
 
Musharraf should make an effort to introduce a national drink of Pakistan to the World.
 
 
 
Is racki Turkish? I used to think it is greek, could you please explain
 
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The Greek one is called "Ouzo", which is actually different from Raki. And an important fact is that Greeks don't claim that the Turkish Raki is originally a Greek drink.
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Raki isn't Turkish, its Levantine, Arak, Ouzo, Raki.

A Turkish alcoholic beverage would be "Kimiz".

 

 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 12:47

Bulldog,

%99 of Turkish people don't even know what the f.ck "Kimiz" is. And anise-flavored alcoholic drinks are the traditional drinks of eastern mediterranean countries, including Turkey.
 
Ouzo is the liqueur of Raki, If you want to learn the difference, Bulldog.
 
And if you want to learn more about Turkey and her drinking culture, just ask me, before posting false information. 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 14:48
Kimiz is a drink of the Turks, just because you don't want to accept it doesn't change this reality.
 
Raki isn't a drink invented by Turks, most drink it cos it isn't "wine", I've spoke to people who won't go near wine but think drinking Raki is fine LOL
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@Brian
 
The point was that sober men that wouldn't consider hitting their partners may do exactly that in a state of drunkeness. These days you haven't had a good time till you are out of your mind. The bigger a fool you make of yourself apparently the more fun you are having.
 
I looked up the ruling regarding drinking in Imam Malik's Muwatta and this is what i found:
 

Section: The Hadd for Drinking Wine

Book 42, Number 42.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that as-Sa'ib ibn Yazid informed him that Umar ibn al-Khattab came out to them. He said, "I have found the smell of wine on so-and-so, and he claimed that it was the drink of boiled fruit juice, and I am inquiring about what he has drunk. If it intoxicates, I will flog him." Umar then flogged him with the complete hadd.

Book 42, Number 42.1.2:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Thawr ibn Zayd ad-Dili that Umar ibn al-Khattab asked advice about a man drinking wine. Ali ibn Abi Talib said to him, "We think that you flog him for it with eighty lashes. Because when he drinks, he becomes intoxicated, and when he becomes intoxicated, he talks confusedly, and when he talks confusedly, he lies." (80 lashes is the same amount as for slandering) Umar gave eighty lashes for drinking wine.

Book 42, Number 42.1.3:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that he was asked about the hadd of the slave for wine. He said, "I heard that he has half the hadd of a freeman for drinking wine. Umar ibn al-Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Abdullah ibn Umar flogged their slaves with half of the hadd of a freeman when they drank wine."

Book 42, Number 42.1.4:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that he heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "There is nothing that Allah does not like to be pardoned as long as it is not a hadd."

Yahya said that Malik said, "The sunna with us is that the hadd is obliged against anyone who drinks something intoxicating whether or not he becomes drunk."

Section: Containers Forbidden for Preparation of Nabidh

Book 42, Number 42.2.5:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, addressed the people in one of his raids. Abdullah ibn Umar said, "I went towards him, but he finished before I reached him. I asked about what he had said. Someone said to me, 'He forbade preparing nabidh in a gourd or in a jug smeared with pitch.'"

Book 42, Number 42.2.6:

Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Ala ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Yaqub from his father from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade preparing nabidh in a gourd or in a jug smeared with pitch.

Section: Mixtures of Fruit Disapproved for Making Nabidh

Book 42, Number 42.3.7:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from Ata ibn Yasar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade preparing nabidh from nearly ripe dates and fresh dates together, and from dates and raisins together.

Book 42, Number 42.3.8:

Yahya related to me from Malik from a reliable source from Bukayr ibn Abdullah ibn al-Ashajj from Abd ar-Rahman ibn al-Hubab al-Ansari from Abu Qatada al-Ansari that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade making nabidh from dates and raisins together, and nearly ripe dates and fresh dates together.

Malik said, "That is the way of doing things among us in which the people of knowledge in our city continue. It is disapproved of because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade it."

Section: Wine Made Haram

Book 42, Number 42.4.9:

Yahya related to me from Malik from ibn Shihab from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was asked about mead, and he replied, 'Every drink which intoxicates is haram.' "

Book 42, Number 42.4.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from Ata ibn Yasar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was asked about al-Ghubayra. He said, "There is no good in it," and forbade it. Malik said, "I asked Zayd ibn Aslam, 'What is al-Ghubayra?' He said, 'It is an intoxicant.' "

Book 42, Number 42.4.11:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said "Whoever drinks wine in this world and does not turn from it in tawba, it is haram for him in the Next World."

Section: General Section on Wine being Made Haram

Book 42, Number 42.5.12:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that Ibn Wala al-Misri asked Abdullah ibn Abbas about what is squeezed from the grapes. Ibn Abbas replied, "A man gave the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, a small water-skin of wine. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to him, 'Don't you know that Allah has made it haram?' He said, 'No.' Then a man at his side whispered to him. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked what he had whispered, and the man replied, 'I told him to sell it.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'The One who made drinking it haram has made selling it haram.' The man then opened the water-skins and poured out what was in them ."

Book 42, Number 42.5.13:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ishaq ibn Abdullah ibn Abi Talha that Anas ibn Malik said, "I was serving wine to Abu Ubayda ibn al-Jarrah and Abu Talha al-Ansari and Umayy ibn Kab. The wine had been prepared from crushed ripe dates and dried dates. Someone came to them and said, 'Wine has been made haram.' Abu Talha ordered me to go and take the jugs and break them. I stood up and went to a mortar of ours and I struck them with the bottom of it until they broke."

Book 42, Number 42.5.14:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Da'ud ibn al-Husayn that Waqid ibn Amr ibn Sad ibn Muadh informed him from Mahmud ibn Labid al-Ansari that when Umar ibn al-Khattab went to ash-Sham, the people of ash-Sham complained to him about the bad air of their land and its heaviness. They said, "Only this drink helps." Umar said, "Drink this honey preparation." They said, "Honey does not help us." A man from the people of that land said, "Can we give you something of this drink which does not intoxicate?" He said, "Yes." They cooked it until two-thirds of it evaporated and one-third of it remained. Then they brought it to Umar. Umar put his finger in it and then lifted his head and extended it. He said, "This is fruit juice concentrated by boiling. This is like the distillation with which you smear the camel's scabs." Umar ordered them to drink it. Ubada ibn as-Samit said to him, "You have made it halal, by Allah!" Umar said, "No, by Allah! O Allah! I will not make anything halal for them which You have made haram for them! I will not make anything haram for them which You have made halal for them."

Book 42, Number 42.5.15:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that some men from Iraq said to him, "Abu Abd ar-Rahman, we buy the fruit of the palm and grapes and we squeeze them into wine and we sell it." Abdullah ibn Umar said, "I call on Allah and His angels and whoever hears of jinn and men to testify to you that I order you not to buy it nor sell it nor to press it nor to drink it nor to give it to people to drink. It is something impure from the work of Shaytan."



Edited by malizai_ - 28-Feb-2007 at 17:21
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Great post, Malizai! That's the kind of thing that I was looking for. Very explicit evidence for the case.

I encourage more of the same, and I'd also like to ask any of you who are Muslim (if you care to answer, one way or the other) if you yourselves drink? I wonder what the answers will be.
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Abdullah ibn Umar said, "I went towards him, but he finished before I reached him. I asked about what he had said. Someone said to me

You just gotta love hadith sometimes.
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Adultery with a virgin is a worse crime than murder, and alcohol is shocking. A Malaysian was in shock when I had a wine in the plane-seat next to him, and the hostess apologised to him for me.
In heaven, they are to get a supply of virgins and  full cups of plonk.
Take your pick, its shocking and divine - perhaps forbidden fruit is sweeter.
Imagine the noise of eternal, mass orgasm.
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Originally posted by Bulldog

Kimiz is a drink of the Turks, just because you don't want to accept it doesn't change this reality.
 
Raki isn't a drink invented by Turks, most drink it cos it isn't "wine", I've spoke to people who won't go near wine but think drinking Raki is fine LOL
 
 
 
Bulldog, please, stop this misinformation.
 
99% of Turkish people don't even know what "Kimiz" is. It's a traditional drink of central asian Turkic peoples, who are utterly different from the people of Turkey, especially culturally.
 
And the Khirghiz farmstead in Izmir, which belongs to a Khirghiz family, is the only place to drink "Kimiz" in Turkey. And only psycho Pan-Turkists go there. But even they don't claim such a ridiculous thing.
 
%99 of Turkish people don't know what Kimiz is. Even %99,9. 7000 Pan Turkists. That's all.
 
Roger that?
 
 
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Originally posted by The Hidden Face

Originally posted by Bulldog

Kimiz is a drink of the Turks, just because you don't want to accept it doesn't change this reality.
 
Raki isn't a drink invented by Turks, most drink it cos it isn't "wine", I've spoke to people who won't go near wine but think drinking Raki is fine LOL
 
 
 
Bulldog, please, stop this misinformation.
 
99% of Turkish people don't even know what "Kimiz" is. It's a traditional drink of central asian Turkic peoples, who are utterly different from the people of Turkey, especially culturally.
 
And the Khirghiz farmstead in Izmir, which belongs to a Khirghiz family, is the only place to drink "Kimiz" in Turkey. And only psycho Pan-Turkists go there. But even they don't claim such a ridiculous thing.
 
%99 of Turkish people don't know what Kimiz is. Even %99,9. 7000 Pan Turkists. That's all.
 
Roger that?
 
 
 
I tried both qimiz one , which Itried was made from camel milk and AKKKKK..
Turkish raki is a good drink,I have tried it couple of times, still I prefer the pure russian Vodak the real drink of steppes,SerefeWink 
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Adultery with a virgin is a worse crime than murder, and alcohol is shocking.

Adultery is punishable by lashes. Murder is punishable by death.

That malaysian dude sure overeacted for simply seeing wine.

I find it really ironic that muslims/middleasterners have a stereotype of running liquor stores here in the U.S, considering how much they try to avoid consuming it.
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I once heared from a woman who had lived in Pakistan for a while. She wanted to buy some alcohol from one of these stores for foreign people, but she needed a pass for it first. So she went to the city office for the pass, and the man behind the desk asked her if she was an alcoholic. She rather indignantly replied no, and the guy gave her a pass for 2 litres of alcoholic beverages. She asked if she could get some more, two litres is not a lot for 6 months or something. He told her that as she was not an alcoholic, she did not need more.

Six months later she had to get a new pass. The man once again asked her if she was an alcoholic. This time she replied yes, and voila, a pass for forty litres was given without a flinch. LOL True story, I swear.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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