Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

European and Persian Castles

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: European and Persian Castles
    Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 06:14

I think it is a sample of an European style castle:

But there also many castles especially old ones in Europe that I think have Persian style of architecture, like this one thousand years old Norman castle in Wales:


Chepstow Castle in Wales


Rudkhan Castle in Iran (Seljuk Period)

Back to Top
Kuu-ukko View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Dec-2004
Location: Finland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 06:17
But European castle towers were originally square-shaped, weren't they? The Europeans changed them to round towers when they realised that square towers were less protective against battering rams. I think it goes like this.........

Thank you and goodbye.


Edited by Kuu-ukko
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 06:38

The first picture is a later palace-castle, probably 19th century, or a greatly reconstructed older one. The second one is an older castle, meant for defence. We're talking two buildings with 800 years between them with different purposes. Both are European, and had no Persian influence. If you're interested, take a look at old Roman fortifications - they had also the typical round towers.

For example, the Roman walls in Lugo:



Edited by Styrbiorn
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 09:57

Ok it is an old castle in England:


Colchester Castle

It is a reconstructed Roman castle:


Falakol Aflak Castle in Iran (Sassanid Period)

Back to Top
Frederick Roger View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Jan-2005
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 658
  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 11:20

First of all, I wouldn't call Neuschwanstein "an European style castle". It is a romantic fantasy of the XIXth century, as you probably know, built as a scenario for Wagner's operas by his greatest fan, King Ludwig II of Bavaria.

As for Europe's pre-renaissance castles, given its role as a fortification or line of defense instead of residence, they were mostly of arab architecture. Some Roman fortifications in Northern Europe were in fact mosly square shaped, both walls and towers. In the south, it was arabic influence that imposed round towers, although most castles kept a main tower inside the castle that was square shapped. That fashion eventually caught on after the first crusades, with several military architects (mostly from Knightly Orders such as Templar and Hospitallary) returning to Europe with new conceptions of castle building. This mixture of new arab influence with roman tradition lasted till the modern ages, when castle building split into two genres: border fortifications, with star shaped walls and multiface towers (pentagonal, hexagonal, etc..); and palace strongholds, built more as temporary residences on bordery regions than defensive structures. So it's quite normal that some European castles have similarities with north african and middle eastern fortresses.  

Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 12:22
medieval stone-castles did not appear before the Crusades...
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 12:46

But Arabs castles were certainly square shaped too.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&q=arab+cas tle


Arab Castle near Palmyra, Syria


Marib Castle in Yemen

Back to Top
Cornellia View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 14:20

Originally posted by Temujin

medieval stone-castles did not appear before the Crusades...

Wasn't the Tower of London built shortly after 1066? If so, I wonder if it was the first medieval stone castle in Europe. Or was it originally not the stone structure it is now? I ask because the first crusade didn't take place until 1095, after construction had started or was completed on the Tower..............or did I just miss the joke? LOL

Its possible that the similarities between the Persian and European stone castles stems from the fact they were both built with the same purpose - defense - shared purpose, shared solutions sorta thingie.

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 14:31

City Walls of Rome.

 

The technique to build round towers is not something inheritly Persian, and since the greatest engineers of the ancient time themselves left remains, I think the Europeans didn't have to go all the way to Persia to find inspiration if they needed that.

Its possible that the similarities between] the Persian and European stone castles stems from the fact they were both built with the same purpose - defense - shared purpose, shared solutions sorta thingie.

That's what I think. I'm no expert or even amateur on the subject though, that's why I've just been giving suggestions.



Edited by Styrbiorn
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 12:00
but before the Crusades all the Europeans had were mots (don't know if it also goes by that name in the English world) that were just wooden castles on hilltops, descendants of the Celtic hill forts. Roman technology was discontinued after its fall. medieval siege weapons and fortifications were inspired by eastern models.
Back to Top
Degredado View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 366
  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 13:26

Does anyone know the influences of the Norman wooden castles? That might explain alot.

Anyhoo, I read this book once in which the author stated that modern castles were first developed by Belisarius after his campaign against the Vandals. I wonder if it's true...

Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
Back to Top
Sikander View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 12-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 13:46

   Well, that discontinuity between roman and european architecture is not entirely true. That stuff about "European castles being nothing more than just moats and timber" may be correct if you just consider England or the northern Europe, but in the South, people kept building in stone. If you go so Spain and Portugal you'll find a lot on stone castles that are older than the Crusades, and I don't think they are all moorish...

  Anyway, and as far as I know, round shaped towers became more predominant in Europe after the first Crusade. That had logical reasons: round towers don't have "dead angles" from which they can be attacked.

   But keep in mind that Moors too used square towers. Just look at some pictures from Lisbon and you'll see there a magnificent arab castle with many, many square towers!

Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:11
Well, the first european castles and fortification were rather boxy. A legacy from the romans (very innovative though 2000 years' ago).

The white tower of London is representative of those times.



After this, we built them round, not because of rams but of catapults. The surface of contact was smaller and therefore the building was more resistants. Example in Angers.



On very insteresting place about this is Carcassonne, because we can see the two trends in one


Vae victis!
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 16:31

Malbork castle



Edited by TJK
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 13:57
is this the marienburg? I know it is famous for being build of red brick stones...
Back to Top
Exarchus View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 14:35
Malbork is the castle of the order of the teutonic knights.
Vae victis!
Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 15:31

Bourgi Castle

Another view

Venetian creation, blazon of Nafplio. The Venetians firm its fortification in 1473. Greeks regain it from the Turks in 18th June 1822, from where they wil assist the siege of Nafplio. Bourtzi serves as a fortress until 1865. It then transformed into residence of the hangmen who executed the convicts in Palamidi. From 1930 to 1970 served as a hotel.

Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 15:45

Iraklio

Castle of Irakleion - Crete

Chania

Castle in Chania - Crete better known as fragokastello. Venetian Castle built to defend Chania from pirates.

Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 15:50
Originally posted by Temujin

is this the marienburg? I know it is famous for being build of red brick stones...


Yes it is Marienburg.

Quite a few castles in the old Teutonic areas are made with red brick though, and also someone in old Sweden, which was built with the help of German brickmakers. edit yes, here, Tavastehus in Hme/Tavastehus, Finland:



Edited by Styrbiorn
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.096 seconds.