QuoteReplyTopic: Allah, God... and more Christian/Muslim questions Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 15:41
No problem kardes, he actually took a different route and went to finish his Islamic studies here at the Univeristy of Chicago instead of just exclusively at Egypt or SA.
1.
What is Jihad? Under what conditions does Islam sanction the use of
violence? What would you tell suicide bombers who invoke Islam to
justify their actions?
There is a miracle and a puzzle in Muslim history which cannot be
rationally explained. The miracle is the speed and scope of the early
Seventh Century spread of Islam from a poor Arab-Bedouin perspective,
into the two great civilizations of the time – the Persian and the
Byzantine. And the puzzle is the rapid decline of the Islamic
civilization by the eighteenth century, after it had proved its
unprecedented vitality and capability. By that time, the Muslims had
lost the geographical, cultural, economic and political impact on world
affairs to the point of their being put to the margin of the so-called
modern history. This state of affairs made the Muslims for the last two
centuries struggle for their come-back to the main stream of the modern
or global history. Consequently, the Muslims have been busy with two
main movements aimed at regaining their place in history: the movement
of secularization and the movement of re-Islamization.
We are now at the peak of the movement of “re-Islamization” of the
Muslim mind because the “movement” of secularization or modernization
of the Muslim mind has failed to bring to the Muslim societies the
social justice, democracy, the rule of law, political accountability
and economic prosperity. The rate of Muslim illiteracy today is very
high, the GDP in many Muslim societies is very low, 70% percent of the
world refugees are Muslims and today’s wars are conducted in the Muslim
lands.
These
and other accounts which are on the Muslim mind should be taken into a
serious consideration when we speak about any of the Muslim issues
today, including the issue of Jihad. Although the word Crusade is not a
fully adequate comparison with the word Jihad, but these two words may
help us understand not only the religious context of their meaning but
also the sort of cultural misconceptions between the Muslim World and
the West today.
The word Crusade may mean many good things in the West: “Crusade for
education”, for instance, and the word Jihad may indicate to many good
things in the Muslim World as well: “Jihad against one’s immorality”,
for example. However, the Jihad in the West means only one thing:
“Violence against the West” and the Crusade has only one meaning for
the Muslims: “War against Islam”. No “western” explanation, even the
President George Bush’s apology after he used it in the aftermath of
the 11th of September, can persuade the Muslims that the word Crusade
does not mean “the War against Islam”. And so is the case with the word
Jihad: No Muslim explanation can free the Western audience from the
fear of the Jihad violence. Hence, the question here is not about what
is Jihad or what Jihad is not. The question here is about trust or
mistrust between the two. Unfortunately, the trust between the Muslim
World and the West today is at the lowest level in recent history. I
believe that neither the violence of Jihad nor the aggression of the
military force will regain the lost trust between the Muslim world and
the West.
There cannot be any justification for the violence in the name of
Islam and there cannot be rightful explanation of the killing of
innocent people whether in the wartime or the peacetime by the way of
suicide bombings. The violence (‘unf) was not the practice of the
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and suicide was not his way of
life either. His was the strength of faith! His was the power of the
mind! His was the compassion of heart! His was triumph of life!
The way of life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him), was not suicide in any form or content!
Therefore, the way of "re-Islamization" of the Muslim mind should be
directed towards cooperation for the sake of peace in the world. For,
neither the meek nor the aggressive will inherit the world, but the
cooperative in peace and security of the world!
2. How does Islam define apostasy? Is it permissible for a Muslim to
convert to another faith? How can laws against apostasy and blasphemy
be reconciled with Qur’anic injection of “No compulsion in religion”?
The issue of apostasy is one of those issues where the Muslims
should have realized the historic significance of the Qur’anic
announcement of the following fundamental principles of human freedom
and dignity:
1) There shall be no compulsion in religion.
If it were only for this loud and clear statement of the Qur'an, it
would be enough to appreciate the venture of Islam in human history. In
it a reasonable man recognizes the foundation of religious freedom
which is considered today to be one of the most fundamental values of
our common civilization. Should I remind you that as recently as
September 27, 1480, the Spanish sovereigns Ferdinand and Isabella
issued an order to establish in their kingdoms tribunals to judge cases
of “heretical depravity”, to become known as the Spanish Inquisition.
This fact of history Professor Benzion Netanyahu brings to our
attention in this way:
The royal decree explicitly stated that the Inquisition was
instituted to search out and punish converts from Judaism who
transgressed against Christianity by secretly adhering to Jewish
beliefs and performing rites and ceremonies of the Jews.
My intention here is not to embarrass any person or religion, but to
show the significance of the testimony of Stanford Shaw the Jewish
author, who has this to say about a political as well as moral legacy
of Islam:
"Neither the people of the Republic of Turkey nor those of Europe
and America fully realize the extent to which Turkey, and the Ottoman
Empire which preceded it, over the centuries served as major places of
refuge for people suffering from persecution, Muslims and non-Muslims
alike, from the fourteenth century to the present. In many ways the
Turks historically fulfilled the role subsequently taken up by the
United States of America beginning in the late nineteenth century. "
I have quoted this witness not to justify all the actions of the
Ottoman Sultans, but to demonstrate that it was due to the above
mentioned short, but very powerful Qur'anic statement of the seventh
century, that the Muslim scholars developed the concept of the
protection of five fundamental rights of what we call today “human
rights” of each and every person: the right to life (نفس), the right to
religion (دين), the right to freedom (عقل), the right to property (مال)
and the right to dignity (عِرْض).
It is quite regrettable that the modern Muslim intelligentsia has
failed to pick up on this doctrinal and historical foundation of an
Islamic avant-garde for human rights to build up social, political and
moral institutions in the Muslim world that would guarantee the
development of a genuine democratic system.
2) There shall be no priesthood
It was the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who challenged the
monopoly of the clergy on the spiritual truth and eschatological
privilege by declaring that لا رهبانيّة في الإسلام “There shall be no
priesthood in Islam.” This is not to be understood though that there
shall be no scholars or intellectuals to interpret Islam both as the
transcendental meaning of human life and the immanent manifestation of
human history, but rather it should be taken as a protest against the
manipulation with human destiny in the name of religion in the sense of
mediation between God and man. It is in the light of this protest
against the notion of the clerical domination over the human souls that
we have to appreciate the Prophet Muhammad's historic abolishment of
the social and political privileges of the ancient clerics whose raison
d'être had been based on a vague and doubtful mythological foundation.
Bearing this in mind, is it not paradoxical, to say the least, to think
of Islam as a religion of theocracy. Of course, the religion that came
to cancel the institution of old theocracy cannot be accused of
creating a new one.
Unfortunately, some self-proclaimed Muslim scholars and political
leaders are not good witnesses to this obvious claim because of their
clear tendency to subdue Islam to their narrow-minded view of a wide
range of spiritual, moral as well as political possibilities that the
great religion like Islam holds in its bosom. And, in spite of the fact
that we are constantly reminded in the Holy Qur'an that no one, but God
Almighty, is in charge of the final way to Paradise or to Hell, some
irresponsible people like to play the role of God by designating some
people for the Hell and some others for the Paradise. Fortunately, this
kind of bigotry Islam has successfully survived in the past and it
will, I am sure, survive in the future.
3) There shall be no discrimination
Finally, one of the reasons that I am in full capacity as a Muslim
of the European origin is the universal declaration of equal rights
that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had delivered at one of
his Ceremonies on the hill of Arafat when he said:
كلكم من آدم و آدم من تراب, لا فضل لعربي علي أعجمي, و لا لأعجمي علي عربي, ولا لأبيض علي أسود و لا لاسود علي ابيض, إلاّ بالتقوي.
"You are all children of Adam, and Adam is from clay. Let there
shall be no superiority of an Arab over a Non-Arab, nor shall be
superiority of a Non-Arab over an Arab, and there shall be no
superiority of a white over a black or a black over a white man, except
by good character."
I don’t know whether the American Baptist minister and the leader of
the civil rights movement Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. has been aware of
the above mentioned universal declaration of the Prophet Muhammad
(peace be upon him), but I do know that we are all in a desperate need
today to listen to those divinely inspired messages. Of course, I am
aware that my power is too frail to be King's voice, but my heart is
full of hope to have Martin Luther King's dreams today as his were
yesterday that my three children will one day live in a world where
they will not be judged by the faith of their heart but by the content
of their character.
I believe that the faith of Islam is too strong in the hearts of
Muslims to be obsessed and disturbed by those who lose their faith. Of
course, the crime of treason should be dealt with in accordance to the
just laws of the land.
3. What are the rights of women in Islam? How does Islam’s view of male-female equality differ from the Western view?
It would be a grave mistake to perceive the female’s status in the
West through the image of Hollywood star women. And equally so, it
would be a grave prejudice to judge Islam’s view of male-female
equality through the image of an illiterate poor woman of Afghanistan.
Unfortunately, the international media is so powerful nowadays in
creating such images that some people cannot but live with the notion
that Islam is against male-female equality while the West is the
champion of women’s rights to be followed everywhere. It is true that
in some part of the Muslim World women are treated badly. However, this
is not because of Islam’s view on women but because of the low culture
which is against the basic teachings of Islam in the first place. Thus,
the western constant complain about the women’s rights in some Muslim
societies is right as far as an overall social injustice in the Muslim
World is concerned, but it is not justified in regard to the Islam’s
historic contribution to the women’s freedom and emancipation.
Furthermore, I dare to claim that the West has no credibility
whatsoever to advise “Islam” how to treat women because it was Islam
which made Adam and Eve equal in quilt as well as equal in repentance.
Thus, it is Islam which taught Eve how to regain her equality before
God and history after Adam’s attempt to put all the blame on her for
the first sin. In addition, it was Islam which saved the innocent girls
from homicide because they were born female.
With all due respect to the western achievements in last centuries
regarding the women’s social rights, I do not see the current status of
women in the West as an exemplary model for women’s equality and
dignity.
In the same way I do not see that the current defensive approach of
some Muslim groups who oppress women for their “protection” is an
Islamic model to be followed.
I hope though that the women around the world will rise to proclaim
their own peaceful submission to the will of God in which is the moral
law of modesty in the sense that there is no women’s freedom to the
extreme of pornography and that there is no women’s protection to the
extent of slavery.
I was going to ineterject a page ago, but Seko has done an outstanding job in answering to claims and to posts alike. Thus, I was browsing the net and decided to share this interview in Newsweek with Mustafa Ceric, who is the Grand Mufti in Bosnia. It interesting, and on the clerial note he seems more anti-clerical than pro, also touches upon apostasy seperates it from treson. From what read in this interview he points out that apostasy is not a punishable act, and that putting people in hell or heaven is God's job, not a temporal issue, and should never be, but something hijacked by self righteous people who believe falsely in the practice. He does say that treason should be dealt with according to the laws of the land, but I don't see him advocating that treason and apostasy are one and the same or alike, it seems rather diving the act of apostasy from something temporal as treason.
According to the mufti: In some cases, this sin of the individual may also represent a greater
break with the commonly held values of a society in an attempt to
undermine its foundations or even attack its citizenry. Depending on
the circumstances, this may reach the level of a crime of sedition
against one’s society. Penalizing this sedition may be at odds with
some conceptions of freedom that would go so far as to ensure people
the freedom to destroy the society in which they live. This is a
freedom that we do not allow since preservation of the society takes
precedence over personal freedoms. This was the basis of the Islamic
perspective on apostasy when committed at certain times and under
certain circumstances.
I understand your appreciation for a seemingly insightful mufti, yet he judges according to his own rules (perhaps created by the society he lives in) and calls it Islam. That is my main objection though. He wrongfully does that and throughout history, the acts of those type of muslims have created unsanctioned (un-Quranic) restrictions. He is astute enough to realize the hazzards of individualism at odds with the greater good. He is correct in analyzing the injunctions that some past and present Islamic socieities have against apostasy. Yet he is not aware of the dangers that limiting freedoms leads to while harboring such restrictions.
Well, I was citing him as religious leader and scholar both. I don't necessarily view his statement as ignorant -- actually, I thought it was quite insightful, especially since in the same article he gives a rather pointed analysis of gender, as well as a condemnation of terror. I find him a respectable sort. What I think he outlines in his article is a different worldview, as well as the natural ramifications of that in the modern world. Historically, the struggle in Christendom has between the Church and the State; in the Muslim world it has traditionally been between the religious and the secular. This struggle has carried over into the modern world in both faiths. Since the struggle has been historically defined primarily in terms of ideology rather than institution in Islam, we see the Muslim world splitting primarily in terms of geography and culture, while we see the Christian world splitting primarily in terms of ideology and institution. Of course the elephant in the room is the Reformation and its aftermath, which muddles things on the Christian side a bit, and is the reason we see both types of splits present in Christianity. Feel free to poke holes in this; it's actually a bit more of a spontaneous analysis than I am accustomed to giving, and I'd like to get it vetted.
Ako, Egypt historically along with Saudi Arabia, is notorious for ignorant claims by their mufti's. As you can tell I despise such self-proclaimed leaders of religion, especially for Islam. Since there is no specified form of government in Islam, that mufti obviously shapes his (and that of his buddies, village, country or community) rationale to maintain the status quo. To such people religion comes first (their views of what religion should be) and individual rights come second. This belief is unacceotable to modern thought. That is the problem with most of the Islamic countries today. If they are not secular they will infiringe on your rights in the name of religion. Heck they still will try even if they are secular. For me they act in blashemy. They should not blame or use religion for politicial purposes. Sure there exists examples of a healthy functioning society as written in the Quran, but it should not be an example to infringe on the people at the cost of freedom of choice.
Society for those backwoods thinkers is their platform and twisting the Quran is their scapegoat that helps maintain positions of power that opens the doors to practicing historical superstitions. They assume self-administered titles and degrees. However, their form of Islam is a sham and fails to pass the test of a healthy functioning society. Millions may disagree with me, but more importantly to me; I disagree with those millions.
Thanks for your acknowledgement. Now, onto informing the masses...
Yes, many practicing muslims are confused and ignorant of the variety of Islamic principles and regulations themselves. Sacriligiously multitudes of muslims adhere to hadiths and get into all kinds of theological trouble themselves over it. That being said, hadiths do mention death as a source of punishment for apostates. So do some of the Tafsir (commentaries) of the Quran, but not the Quran itself.
Reaching higher knowledge is a journey we all love to take. Many muslims, as well as, non-muslims could always use a refresher course in Islam in order to get things up to par every now and then. Unfortunately, the masses act like sheep most of the time. Rarely do they confront their own masters in order to seek knowledge. Muslims have a problem there. Many are yes men and not enough are pure thinkers. But we shall always hope for enlightened progess.
Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?
I wish people would get their facts straight instead of assuming fanatical positions themselves via bold statements that are inevitably wrong. To repeat, there is no death warrant for apostates in the Quran. It does not say that there is, ever was or will be. The fanatics, on the other hand, create all kinds of laws unto themselves. They always have, they still do and, most likely, will continue to do so.
I think the disconnect, which many non-Muslims view as a problem, is the intricate interconnection between the secular and the religious in the Muslim world. That is to say that Christians have always had a very different -- albeit evolving -- concept of the relations between the Church and the State. A greater degree of separation has generally been present in Christian lands, even during the Constantinian era, than has been the case in the Muslim world. In essence, while Christianity and Islam both view themselves as being in a state of "war" with the world, their views of the world bear significant dissimilarities. This, incidentally, is the reason, as I understand it, for the division of the world into different spheres relative to whether or not these spheres have embraced Islam. Thus, in Islam, the sin of apostasy can easily be viewed as a crime against the social fabric of the state ruling the geographical region in which this sin was committed. We may compare this situation to the exercise of the power of the state against heretics on behalf of the Church that was often practiced in Christian kingdoms until the sixteenth century -- the only real difference being the degree to which the secular and religious concepts are wedded. Here's an excerpt of an article written by the Grand Mufti of Egypt which may help to clarify the issue:
Originally posted by Ali Gomaa
Freedom of Religion in Islam
The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can, because the Quran says, “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion,” [Quran, 109:6], and, “Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,” [Quran, 18:29], and, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,” [Quran, 2:256].
These verses from the Quran discuss a freedom that God affords all people. But from a religious perspective, the act of abandoning one’s religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting faith, then there is no worldly punishment. If, however, the crime of undermining the foundations of the society is added to the sin of apostasy, then the case must be referred to a judicial system whose role is to protect the integrity of the society. Otherwise, the matter is left until the Day of Judgment, and it is not to be dealt with in the life of this world. It is an issue of conscience, and it is between the individual and God. In the life of this world, “There is no compulsion in religion,” in the life of this world, “Unto you your religion and unto me my religion,” and in the life of this world, “He who wills believes and he who wills disbelieves,” while bearing in mind that God will punish this sin on the Day of Judgment, unless it is combined with an attempt to undermine the stability of the society, in which case it is the society that holds them to account, not Islam.
All religions have doctrinal points that define what it is to be an adherent of that religion. These are divine injunctions that form the basis of every religion, but they are not a means for imposing a certain system of belief on others by force. According to Islam, it is not permitted for Muslims to reject their faith, so if a Muslim were to leave Islam and adopt another religion, they would thereby be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. Religious belief and practice is a personal matter, and society only intervenes when that personal matter becomes public and threatens the well-being of its members.
In some cases, this sin of the individual may also represent a greater break with the commonly held values of a society in an attempt to undermine its foundations or even attack its citizenry. Depending on the circumstances, this may reach the level of a crime of sedition against one’s society. Penalizing this sedition may be at odds with some conceptions of freedom that would go so far as to ensure people the freedom to destroy the society in which they live. This is a freedom that we do not allow since preservation of the society takes precedence over personal freedoms. This was the basis of the Islamic perspective on apostasy when committed at certain times and under certain circumstances.
I wish people would get their facts straight instead of assuming
fanatical positions themselves via bold statements that are inevitably
wrong.
I'm sorry I guess I was just repeating a common misconception that I too shared. If not then where is the death warrant found? In one of the Hadiths? In some heretical book? I'm sure there is some legitimacy to the claim since it is a quite common theme in anti-Islamic people against fanatics.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?
I wish people would get their facts straight instead of assuming fanatical positions themselves via bold statements that are inevitably wrong. To repeat, there is no death warrant for apostates in the Quran. It does not say that there is, ever was or will be. The fanatics, on the other hand, create all kinds of laws unto themselves. They always have, they still do and, most likely, will continue to do so.
And the logos isn't basicly Jewish tradition too. It's probably hellenistic. So this could be a result of the hellenistic group among the Jerusalem christians under Jesus brother Jacobus.
Originally posted by Janus Rook
The Logos as the third person of the trinity wasn't defined very well in the embryonic church. It is a hellenistic concept but it wasn't known in the time of Jesus it only came about in it's modern form till about 200 years later.
Well, first it is important to understand that the term logos/Logos is extremely loaded, and can mean a variety of different things. We Christians, as Janus has pointed out, use the term to refer to the Son, who is co-eternal with the Father, and who created the world (among other reason, this is why we use the term to refer to the Son, cf. John 1). Second, the use of the term extends back far beyond the Christian era, which it seems everyone agrees on. Third, precursors to Christian Logos doctrine existed in abundance in the Hellenistic Jewish communities, and was present during the early Christian era, as the Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria demonstrates. The concept was certainly known in the time of Jesus; it was ill-defined in the embryonic Church. Justin Martyr, represented a watershed, Irenaeus another, and Eusebius an incorporation of the term into a broader Christian historiography.
Originally posted by Janus Rook
God probably wasn't in human shape prior to creation....(although does God exist outside of creation or is he coterminous with it?)
Hm. Perhaps this would help. The first term in parentheses, which remains constant, refers to the nature shared by the three persons of the Trinity; the second term, which is variable, refers to the personal aspects by which each person relates to the whole, as well as to the created order:
God the Father exists outside the created order (as uncreated and unbegotten), God the Son exists outside of the created order (as uncreated and eternally begotten), and the Holy Spirit exists outside of the created order (as uncreated and eternally proceeding). Thus, according to orthodox Trinitarian theology, the Trinity cannot be said to be coterminous (sharing points of beginning and end, generation and termination, etc.) with anything, because it does not admit of bounds or points of generation and termination. The nature shared by the three in one is uncreated and eternal. Arius, and later his successors in the fourth century, of course, would have disagreed vehemently.
Allow me to interject myself into this discussion, I so hate coming across things so late as those who know me will verify, but I digress.....
Basically, I think it is complete bull now to say it is the same god.
The god of the Christians wasn't actively seeking a religious state,
recognized the exceeding good in others over members of his own faith,
and could accept a PAGAN overlordship, because the concern of the
faithful wasn't to them, but to their salvation.
Actually the whole conclusion to Christianity is the fact that God is trying to place a religious state on earth. When the end times come we won't have a democracy or a kingdom or a dictatorship, we will have a kind of theocracatic anarchy that has no rulers because there will be no need for them. The difference though is that in Christianity we cannot bring it about by force but we must do so by cooperation and with grace.
And the logos isn't basicly Jewish tradition too. It's
probably hellenistic. So this could be a result of the hellenistic
group among the Jerusalem christians under Jesus brother Jacobus.
The Logos as the third person of the trinity wasn't defined very well in the embryonic church. It is a hellenistic concept but it wasn't known in the time of Jesus it only came about in it's modern form till about 200 years later.
I think it's silly to think of god having a body to begin with,
what's the point of being in human shape prior to creation? Or even
afterwards?
God probably wasn't in human shape prior to creation....(although does God exist outside of creation or is he coterminous with it?) Anyway the reason God is represented artistically as a human is because he chose to become man and for that reason Jesus is the only material form he has. He is represented as being aged to signify that he is the "father" of the trinity as opposed to the son who never achieved that age in his human lifetime.
God in the Qu'ran wants you to choose whatever you want to do or
believe, basically freedom of choice and belief is a concrete belief in
the Qu'ran. There is God, and there is God's word whether you choose to
follow that or learn about it, or whether you want to reject it after
hearing is all up to the individual.
Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
I think it is possible that one of the reasons why we picture that Islam is more ''agressive'' than christianity is because it was not created in the same climate. Christians has inherited a feeling of persecution from its birth, even though it soon became a dominant force, while Islam was born into a position of power (*I am aware of all the conflicts that the Muslims had to fight to reach that point, but the fact remains that the Muslim prophet died as the leader of his people and ruler over vast lands, while Jesus was executed).
I just think that this must have affected the psychology of the members of both religions and many experts, such as the Canadian of Lebanese origin Sami Aoun, have claimed that the fact that the Muslim nations have been into a position of weakness for the past two centuries has been something quite hard to accept for members of a religion with a philosophy based on victory.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack."
God in the Qu'ran wants you to choose whatever you want to do or believe, basically freedom of choice and belief is a concrete belief in the Qu'ran. There is God, and there is God's word whether you choose to follow that or learn about it, or whether you want to reject it after hearing is all up to the individual.
There are some theories that say that Christian and Muslim God are the same, but one side became corrupted and another stayed pure. For Muslims, Bible is the manipulated form of God's word and vice versa, except Bible for Muslims is called Quran. Since I never had a chance to read Quran... I have yet another question for Islamic believers...
1. About the Islamic Churches... they all have this Crested moon shaped symbol, like Christian chruches have symbol of crosses. What does crested moon mean to Muslim?
Nothing. The Turks made this symbol prevalent to Europe and it was used to symbolize Islam. Its actually an ancient Pagan symbol similar to the origins of the cross.
(I noticed that some Muslims add this statement "peace be upon him" everytime when the word Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the text. Is it just for the text, or in verbal statements as well? Is it neccessary to add this statement even for non-believers, or just Muslims?) introduced Islam. I thought Muhammad banned paganism.
It is said in regards to all the Prophets mentioned in the Bible and in the Quran, and in the Old Testament.
According to the Bible, God did not want total obiedence from human beings. Granted, he wanted obiedence, but if that was the case... He would just make puppets. (Just my idea, I have no clue how He thinks.) He said that he wanted to build relationship with human beings. God is love statement is mentioned many times in the Bible.
Now, is that the same thing to Islamic teachings? I heard that total strict obiedence is demanded... so I jumped into the conclusion that Allah wants complete obiedence only. He punishes and awards the souls, but Allah is distant, separated from commoners like human beings because he is too great.
Islam (this is my opinion, others may or may not agree with me) basically means submission which is just like the Natural Laws (we know as Physical sciences) also have their own rules. The Quran has many mentions of nature, of how birds tend their young, of how plants grow, how the sun and moon come up and down, how the rain falls, etc, etc. What this all boils down to basically is that these natural laws that Allah has created for the entire Earth and all its living organisms. Similarly, Human beings must also live by rules, but God gave us a choice to think for ourselves. The Quran is a guideline to keep yourself on the right track and to not stray too far away. Its mentioned that Mohammed (PBUH) said its better to be on the straight path rather than too far to the left or too far to the right and that balance is the ultimate goal.
Islam always tries to maintain a balance. That is why the rich are supposed to help the poor, and its stressed many times by Muhammad (PBUH) and in the Quran that a Muslim who sleeps full while their neighbor is hungry is not a Muslim. That is also why injustice is a big rousing point for Muslims around the world.
Strict obedience is not demanded, because there is no compulsion in Islam. If you believe in Islam, you must believe there is a day of judgement where you will be tried for your sins. Its mentioned in the Quran that men can be led astray and may never ask for forgiveness their entire lives...but it equally mentions the fate of those people in the afterlife.
Just answer the questions please. I know the content may offend some, but my knowledge is still young. Enlighten me.
[/QUOTE]
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Well, some of the most respected christian philosophers and experts were actually big believers of the Trinity. Think of people like Augustine of Hippo. People did think those little theological points were worthy of a lot of trouble considering that the roman and orthodox churchs were capable of arguing over bread...
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack."
I agree that the Trinity was not accepted by all Christians.
It just seems funny that after centuries of existing with Christians that the Muslims still misrepresent our doctrines and attributes teachings we've never taught (since the councils).
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Yeah, I think the trinity issue is just more or less trying to reconcile greek philosophy with Christianity. I have no concern for it. There is a church in Columbus, Ohio, greek Orthodox, that has enlarged, and they build the new church next to and over the old one. The turned the old one into a bookstore, but you can see the guy who painted the picture of god up on the wall put three human figures there, I suppose representing the trinity, and made the middle one have a triangle over his head, representing the trinity..... so you ended up with FIVE people up there. I call the one on the left Bob, and the one on the right Ed. Bob, Ed, and God just sitting up there, chillin, enjoying the air conditioner.
I think it's silly to think of god having a body to begin with, what's the point of being in human shape prior to creation? Or even afterwards? Some stuff wasn't really thought out, and we stumbled in the stupid era of the later empire. But this is the least important part of Christianity, a people who should be looking after their own salvation and living in brotherhood and helping those in need.
I guess it's my fault. well all started with the trinity. My statement was, that trinity isn't a common christian belief, but those of a huge majority. It was Arius, who thought Jesus as subordinated to God. It's the problem of homousie and homoiusie. But also monarchianism, Tritheism and Adoptianism do not go confirm with trinity. In the case of Adoptianism Jesus is not the son of God, but adopted or chosen. We can find these in the bible in e.g. Ps 2,7 and Sam 7,14 where the son of God is a chosen human being. In Hos 11,6 and Gen 6,2 the whole people of Israel is mentioned as sons of God respectivly honorable Jews. Jesus is also mentioned as son of Josef of Nazareth, sometimes firstborn son of Mary. In other scripts, e.g. from Qumran but as well in Mark and Luke he is mentioned as Messiah (maschiach) which is translated in septuaginta as christos. A maschiach is in the Tanach not a son of god but a chosen man. The whole story of Jesus birth is linked with that. His descendance from the house of David (allthough he's from Nazareth), so Mary and Josef had to travel to Bethlehem, his birth at the time of a special constellation of stars(?), Herodes attempt to kill him. It#S interesting, we know so much about his youth, but not the date of his birth or that of his dead. So the most of his youth, e.g. in Thomas, is perhaps fiction. There is no sign that he was seen as the son of god at those early days. Even his disciples called him just Rabbi.
And the logos isn't basicly Jewish tradition too. It's probably hellenistic. So this could be a result of the hellenistic group among the Jerusalem christians under Jesus brother Jacobus.
It is correct that there was a concil in the 40th. But the Jerusalem group was still existing. In 66, four years after the death of Jacobus, they had to go to Pella, as a result of a jewish revolt they did not support. After 135 they were unimportant. But their belief was already haretic even in the beginning of the 2nd century.
So if Muslims don't understand trinity they aren't the first ones. There were christians as well that didn't understand or believed it. We know a lot about the biblical Jesus. The question is, is this biblical Jesus equal with the historical one. I am not sure about it.
Let me explain what I meant with the point "...complete different type... I think it was hard to understand what I meant. Sorry. Of course the Israelites had a religion before the babylonian captivity. The question is, was it like that religion we know from the bible. Are there e.g. two older Gods, called El and JHW or even more? By the way. I think it's interesting that IAH in Egypt is moon. It's also interesting that probably the Jewish god(s) had a wife or wifes. So the question is when did Jewish monotheism start. Greek and Roman gods e.g. had sons. So why not the jewish ones. I don't know where the citation was from, so I asked for the context. So that's why I mentioned the possibility that a son of god could come from a polytheistic era. But I do believe that the citation of a son of god can be seen in the way I told you above, as a chosen man and not a devine person. Perhaps it is now a bit clearer what I meant.
So what we know about the historical Jesus is that he was the son of Mary, that Josef was perhaps his father but at least Mary's husband. He appeared about 28 as religious leader. He saw himself probably as a Messiah and rebelled against the Jewish establishment. His teaching stood on the Thora as base. That establishment was responsible for his ending around the year 30. All the rest is hearsay or belief.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum