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The most important battle of WWII
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Crusader3943 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 13:54
Originally posted by aghart

The most imprtant battle of World War II has been missed by each and every one of you! Some may call it a Campaign but it is recorded in history as a battle.

THE BATTLE OF THE ATLANTIC. Lose that and the allies and I mean all the allies lose everything.


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The most imprtant battle of World War II has been missed by each and every one of you! Some may call it a Campaign but it is recorded in history as a battle.
 
THE BATTLE OF THE ATLANTIC.   Lose that and the allies and I mean all the allies lose everything.
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 00:04
Originally posted by pekau

That's the reality if Germans won the war. Period.
 
In "what if" scenarios there's no "reality" - just what your mind wants to picture.
 
Originally posted by pekau

Decebal gave me advice? When? And where?
 
Since you asked, here it is...
 
Originally posted by Decebal

pekau, I would recommend you pay attention to what Maharbbal and Ovidius are saying. It's going to help you a lot in life, not just historical debates, if you'll be more careful with generalizations based on a few chance encounters.
Originally posted by pekau

What? Ah, crap. I am not completely anitsemetic! 
Originally posted by Ovidius

No, just exceptionally Rascist.
Originally posted by pekau

To answer the first post, I have been watching some antisemtic movies... and I was just wondering if calling people Jew was offending any Jewish people...
Originally posted by Ovidius

Why would it be? Unless you are expressing it in an offensive mannor.
Originally posted by pekau

And to counter third post, I was studying the quantum theory at that time, and I just noticed that most of the contributor of the qunatum theory were from Germany. If I hated Jewish race, I wouldn't be praising Einstein, would I?
Originally posted by Ovidius

This is a big excuse for most racists in the world. Either its 'I'm not racist, but....' followed by some exceptionally racist comment. Or its, I'm not racist, look I have Black/Jewish/Muslim/homosexual friends/respect their history/respect individuals within said race. I can praise Ghandi and still be completely biggoted and racist towards India. 
Originally posted by pekau

I must admit that some Jewish people in general are unpleasant.
Originally posted by Ovidius

I must admit that some of every community are in general unpleasant. Any Race, Any Sexuality, Male or Female, even most animals, have some unpleasant members.
Originally posted by pekau

Now, before jumping into conlcusion... hear me out! I am not against Jewish race, just some people. They are the the great survivors. Ever since their nation was sacked by the Roman Empire, they have been wonderers around the world. They spread all over the world, desparate for survivial and to the faith that they would be saved in the future. I respect and admire that will. However, the necessary for survival made them (Not all, I assure you) very... selfish. They generally don't make any donations... unless the donation itself somehow helps the Jewish people. They avoid social life, thinking that they are superior people (Chosen people). They do not show compassion towards others. And that's not just based on others' comment. I have experienced it personally when I was in Europe.
Originally posted by Ovidius

This is where your biggoted side comes out. You believe 'Jews' to be selfish as a race, as if it is a characteristic. I assure you that is seriously not the case. Why do you single out Jews as well? What about all the extremely selfish members of society? Russian Oligarchs for instance, stealing money from the Russian people and then using it to fund football clubs etc? I think that there are Very selfish people within most communities, I actually believe that MOST PEOPLE are rather selfish.
Jews do not express their chosen status at all. I've never met any Jew that has attempted to prove his status as 'chosen'. Certainly not stronger than Jehovas Witnesses or other faiths where being singled out is central to the faith. I think all faiths in one way or another have some sort of belief in the members being superior.
'They do not show compassion towards others'. That is complete crap.
I have experienced it personally when I was in Europe. - Experiences what? A few individual Jews, or you met EVERY Jew at once? Did you not experience the same characteristics within all the people of Europe. Parisians are the most selfish people I've seen, with their blase attitude to life. Yet I would say it was a characteristic of Parisian people or French people. Nor would I single out a 'race'.
Originally posted by pekau

France is another example. Look at the separatists in Quebec. I have seen how some French considering themselves as superior and civilized people.
Originally posted by Ovidius

You misunderstand the whole issue. They do not see themselves as Superior. They are a community that is being swamped by another community, its no suprise that this harbours nationalism and strong self belief as a community. Without that spirit, their culture would totally disapeer in Canada. The Civilisation thing is, I believe, a Misintepretation. They may believe that French Culture is more civilised, but to believe that they as a race are more civilised? Please, I have never heard any Frenchmen express such a thing.
Originally posted by pekau

It disgusts me. Although I have nothing against French race, for I have a couple French friends that I talk to every week... *(MSN is a wonderful technology) but the tendency for certain nation's character is something that I cannot tolerate.
Originally posted by Ovidius

So you are attributing Quebec characteristics upon the French in France? Thats an ignorant way of looking at the French people. Thats like me blaiming you for the North Koreans or somehow hating Koreans because of the Koreans in a certain town in the UK. Please.
Originally posted by pekau

It's important to perserve and maintain a unique culture, but we live in a world where people interact each other more for mankind's survival. (Globalization and internationalism.) We either have to work together or we will all die. I just don't see how arrogant they are, thinking that world cooperation isn't necessary and all...
Originally posted by Ovidius

They are not arrogant. They are just trying to preserve their cultural independence, unlike other nations that are merely submitting to a banal omniculture. So they have a certain amount of nationalism and patriotic pride, so what? You will find the same sort of arrogant spirit within any nation, if you look in the right places.


Edited by Hellios - 18-Mar-2007 at 15:28
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 23:19
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

And that, Hellios, would not be far from the picture... if Germans won the war.
 
Your pro-Nazi picture.  The anti-Nazi picture is Nazis being defeated by combined forces from other continents.
 
Originally posted by pekau

And just because I am pointing out the good side of Nazism DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT NAZISM!
 
You do more than point out "the good side of Nazism".
 
Originally posted by pekau

One must admit the enormous potential that Nazi Germany had...
 
You should follow Decebal's advice & think more about this "enormous potential that Nazi Germany had".
 
 
That's the reality if Germans won the war. Period. How could there be otherwise, unless Hitler finally crack and start to act like normal human being for a change... History confirms that Nazi Germany is taken out of the history by combined Allied forces attacking from East, West and South. (I am not sure about North now...)
 
More? Could you specify?
 
Decebal gave me advice? When? And where? I am afriad I can't tract all the post concerning me...  I will comment once I read his "advice".
     
   
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 23:05
Originally posted by pekau

And that, Hellios, would not be far from the picture... if Germans won the war.
 
Your pro-Nazi picture.  The anti-Nazi picture is Nazis being defeated by combined forces from other continents.
 
Originally posted by pekau

And just because I am pointing out the good side of Nazism DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT NAZISM!
 
You do more than point out "the good side of Nazism".
 
Originally posted by pekau

One must admit the enormous potential that Nazi Germany had...
 
You should follow Decebal's advice & think more about this "enormous potential that Nazi Germany had".
 
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 22:34
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

Hitler always suprise me. He can be so brilliant, but he can be so stupid.
 
And your next statement shows why you think that.
 
Originally posted by pekau

His attitude and personality in the early WWII and near the end of WWII seems as if they are completely different man.
 
He was achieving his ideals "in the early WWII" and started failing near the end.
 
Allow me to quote excerpts from your picture of the world if he continued the success you speak positively about:
 
Originally posted by pekau

Hitler would get the most vote for the greatest hero of the mankind's history in AE website, and all AE moderators would be anti-semetic. All Jewish members would be out, as well as other "subhuman" races. In school, we would learn about Nazism and the ideology of anti-semetism. The finest school in the world would not be Harvard, but Berlin Univeristy or some kind of German University.
 

 

And that, Hellios, would not be far from the picture... if Germans won the war. Thank heavens for his loss. Who knows, I might have been in the gas chamber for all I know...

And just because I am pointing out the good side of Nazism DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT NAZISM! One must admit the enormous potential that Nazi Germany had... but it nevertheless is mankind's nightmare.

It's suprising (Some may argue otherwise) how I am viewed as antisemetic or whatever you are accusing me of. I happen to have several Jewish friends, some I am very close to. I will not make another futile argument, but I assure you (And for others that are viewing me suspeciously) that I am not racist, or antisemeitc or anything like that. I may bring some positive sides of the undescrible evil... but only because we must learn the good things in order to move ahead, even if it means from the enemies. As Tzu said, One must know the enemy to conquer it.
 
Again, please don't see me as some fanatic crazy kid who wants genocide and hatred. Though world domination has been my dream, it's only for amusement... like when we play Rise of Nation or Age of Empires. If you are concerned about my actions... please pm me and I will try to answer as best as I can. (I did not pm this because there would be so many of you...)
 
Sincerely,
pekau
 
     
   
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 19:11
Originally posted by pekau

Hitler always suprise me. He can be so brilliant, but he can be so stupid.
 
And your next statement shows why you think that.
 
Originally posted by pekau

His attitude and personality in the early WWII and near the end of WWII seems as if they are completely different man.
 
He was achieving his ideals "in the early WWII" and started failing near the end.
 
Allow me to quote excerpts from your picture of the world if he continued the success you speak positively about:
 
Originally posted by pekau

Hitler would get the most vote for the greatest hero of the mankind's history in AE website, and all AE moderators would be anti-semetic. All Jewish members would be out, as well as other "subhuman" races. In school, we would learn about Nazism and the ideology of anti-semetism. The finest school in the world would not be Harvard, but Berlin Univeristy or some kind of German University.
 
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 18:29

Hitler always suprise me. He can be so brilliant, but he can be so stupid. It's almost as if there were Hitler twin. His attitude and personality in the early WWII and near the end of WWII seems as if they are completely different man. Who knows, maybe Hitler got this Hyde's potion or something...
     
   
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Posts: 80 		  Quote Crusader3943 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 12:36
I think that the most important battle of WWII was Stalingrad. If the German juggernaut hadn't been stopped, then Russia would have had another German army down to the south to cope with, not to mention that up north, other Germans were preparing to drive on to the capital.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:20

This is one of the light tanks produced by Japanese military during WWII. Over 2000 of them were produced despie its light armor and slow mobility. It proved to be successful in Chinese front, but the quality of the tank was no match for the European tanks.

 
 
 
Type 95 tankImage:Type%2095%20Front%203-4%20view.JPG
     
   
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Kapikulu

I think the Chinese front is largely underestimated as well.
 
Not underestimated, but think about it. The military potential between China and Japan don't have to be exaggerated. Seen the Japanese tanks in WWII? They are considered to be among the worst type of tanks produced, but their kill rate and battle performance in China proved as effective as other European tanks. Why? Because Chinese resistance was very unsuccessful, with some exceptions. Chinese resistances did not join forces together, and all Japan had to do is divide and conquer. It was like Hundred Years War before Joan came in. Furthermore, Japan held sea supremacy in all Chinese water, which was the most efficient method of transportation in China since railways were not available in China, and those that were available were all strongly controlled and defended by Japan.
 
Of course, many other Superpowers sent some elite forces to help out the Chinese resistance, but the number of the assistors were not enough to change the tide of war.
 
Even worse, some Chinese warlords wanted power so much that they allied with Japan against the Chinese resistance.
     
   
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:48
I think the Chinese front is largely underestimated as well.
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For the western front
Battle of France 1940

Eastern front
Battle of Stalingrad 1942 1943

Edited by Tancrde - 06-Mar-2007 at 13:42
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 08:01
Are there some excellent move clips for the Battle of Britain or the Stalingrad Siege? I have seen some short clips, but I was wondering if there's any clips that are well shown with respective amount of duration.
     
   
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Battle of Britain for the western theatre, The Stalingrad Siege for the Eastern theatre of the war as far as WWII in Europe is concerned.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 15:50
I agree that it is indeed Battle of Britain in terms of importance.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 15:15
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Kursk also was the first battle where the allies were able to fight massed, rested and elite  German armoured formations on equal terms and win.  This clearly demonstrated that the Germans no longer had a monopoly on armoured warfare techniques.
 
This win against elite, well supplied and rested German units at Kursk is incontrast to El Alimaine (sp) where  the allies won because of a big supply and numerical advantage against an exhausted foe. 
 
That's exactly why El Alamein is so important. 
 
El Alamein showed once again that the good big'un always beats the good littl'un in the end.
 
It was Nathan Bedford Forrest who said that winning battles was getting there 'fustest with the mostest'. From 1942 on the Germans would never again have the mostest and rarely get there fustest.
 
 
El Alamien is important, but Kursk is far more so. 
 
El Alamein demonstrated that the Germans could be beat, but only if they were out numbered, exhausted and under supplied.  After their defeat here, it was still possible for the Germans to regain the strategic initiative. (they never did, as you pointed out.)  
 
At Kursk, the elite, fresh, well supplied Germans were beaten at their own game (armoured warfare).  After their defeat at Kursk,  it was impossible for the Germans to ever regain the strategic initiative.   
 
Also, at El Alamein, the Germans were outnumbered by 6-1 in tanks. (Maybe 3-1 in infantry).   Most of the Germans still got away.  This furhter illustrates why Kursk is more important (Russians beat rested Germans without a huge numerical advantage) 
I agree with Cryptic.
El Alamein was an important battle but it didn't break the German's back,the Germans were outnumbered as you wrote,no fuel long supply routs as well as their bad stratigic postion.
the Germans had 12 planes only against 1200 to the allied forces 200 panzers against 1000 tanks for the allied.
the fresh forces that came from middle east and india played a major role in the battle and I must mention the poor trained and weak Italian forces which made a disaster to this campaign from it's begining.
all Germans Generals told Hitler that if we want to win in north Africa we must send more troops but Hitler answer was the Italians are there we should send elite troops only.
for him it was only a secondary front with all these things and Rommel managed to destroy 500 tanks and made an impressive retreat(2000KM) even though the American landing in Tunisia he saved the African korps and I consider that a big accomplishment.
 
In terms of tank generals, Rommel was the closest being to God during WWII...LOL
     
   
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 11:57
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Kursk also was the first battle where the allies were able to fight massed, rested and elite  German armoured formations on equal terms and win.  This clearly demonstrated that the Germans no longer had a monopoly on armoured warfare techniques.
 
This win against elite, well supplied and rested German units at Kursk is incontrast to El Alimaine (sp) where  the allies won because of a big supply and numerical advantage against an exhausted foe. 
 
That's exactly why El Alamein is so important. 
 
El Alamein showed once again that the good big'un always beats the good littl'un in the end.
 
It was Nathan Bedford Forrest who said that winning battles was getting there 'fustest with the mostest'. From 1942 on the Germans would never again have the mostest and rarely get there fustest.
 
 
El Alamien is important, but Kursk is far more so. 
 
El Alamein demonstrated that the Germans could be beat, but only if they were out numbered, exhausted and under supplied.  After their defeat here, it was still possible for the Germans to regain the strategic initiative. (they never did, as you pointed out.)  
 
At Kursk, the elite, fresh, well supplied Germans were beaten at their own game (armoured warfare).  After their defeat at Kursk,  it was impossible for the Germans to ever regain the strategic initiative.   
 
Also, at El Alamein, the Germans were outnumbered by 6-1 in tanks. (Maybe 3-1 in infantry).   Most of the Germans still got away.  This furhter illustrates why Kursk is more important (Russians beat rested Germans without a huge numerical advantage) 
I agree with Cryptic.
El Alamein was an important battle but it didn't break the German's back,the Germans were outnumbered as you wrote,no fuel long supply routs as well as their bad stratigic postion.
the Germans had 12 planes only against 1200 to the allied forces 200 panzers against 1000 tanks for the allied.
the fresh forces that came from middle east and india played a major role in the battle and I must mention the poor trained and weak Italian forces which made a disaster to this campaign from it's begining.
all Germans Generals told Hitler that if we want to win in north Africa we must send more troops but Hitler answer was the Italians are there we should send elite troops only.
for him it was only a secondary front with all these things and Rommel managed to destroy 500 tanks and made an impressive retreat(2000KM) even though the American landing in Tunisia he saved the African korps and I consider that a big accomplishment.
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 06:40
I rather wouldnt say that battle for britain was so important.Even they had won the germans will still have invade england and to do so they will have deal with the home fleet aswell.And even if they did that they land somehow on Britain they will have to fight and the whole campain will take time and delay the invasion of the USSR.That time will be enough because for every pasing moment the soviets were getting stronger and eventualy will launch offensive of their own.And ocupation of England wont help much in north africa but even if the axis forces somehow get their asses to iraq their number were not enought to trie to open southen front to the soviets.
And for almost all battles for the periond of 41-42 in USSR are somewhat important but the most one cant say
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 20:05
Battle of Midday was important, but Americans with her allies would have won eventually anyway. Battle of Britain was probably the most important battle. If Britain's taken out, Germans can now fight Russia without interference. Russia would face greater number of German invaders, and the supplies that the Allies sent to support Russians would be significantly less, since Allies no longer dominates the European sea. Without Britain, Germans led by Rommel could push into Nile and to Middle  East and possibily create another Russian front. Take out Caucausian Mountain and Baku... Russia now has no access to Allies other than through Pacific, where Japanese navy could easily check.
     
   
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