Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Polish Field Commanders - 17th century

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Poll Question: Which of these is the best commander?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
0 [0.00%]
17 [62.96%]
2 [7.41%]
2 [7.41%]
3 [11.11%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [11.11%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish Field Commanders - 17th century
    Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 01:08
Originally posted by rider

But if you are on defensive and you order your infantry's first lines to lie down (50 men in a line perhaps). The enemy comes to get you, marches straight on, some men are performing flanking. You concentrate fire on the forwardmost and position your men with one infantryman besides a cavalryman so the line goes:
 
I - Infantryman
C - Cavalryman
 
              I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C
              C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I
              IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
CCCCC  IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               IIIIIII
CCCCC                                                                   IIIIIII
                                                                              IIIIIII
                 CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 
Then you can instantly mow down four times more enemies then you could with anything else. I have not noted the first two lines, but eve nif the enemy fires at you with his still superior force, his center should be well devastated, the C in the Reserve are for helping others out when the time is right and the other battalion is defending the flank. The I battalion is aswell defending a flank.
 
Raider, AFAIK nobody mixed infantry and cavalry in this way above. I think that it was good to mix only units of infantry with units of cavalry, but it could be unfortunately to mix single soldiers of infantry with single soldiers of cavalry.
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 05:36
Ok, but mixed formation was (probably Smile) created to help cavalry. I see no reason why infantry armed of flintlocks couldn't help cavalry also in 18th c. (in fact, you have already pointed out the battle where infantry armed of flintlocks was mixed with cavalry - Kliszow 1702). If sombody in 18-19th c. had worse cavalry than his enemy, it was good to mix his cavalry with infantry - exactly like in 17th c. 
 
There is also other possibility - we have made mistake. I mean, our previous specultion was wrong. Mixed formation had other task than protect worse cavalry.
 
Yeah, I think this assumption should be changed - to protect formation (no matter infantry or  cavalry) against charge of enemy cavalry. In XVIII century  it was in most cases infantry fights which decide about fate of battle, so maybe it was no reason to "waste" some infantry units to proctect the cavalry.
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 16:02
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by rider

But if you are on defensive and you order your infantry's first lines to lie down (50 men in a line perhaps). The enemy comes to get you, marches straight on, some men are performing flanking. You concentrate fire on the forwardmost and position your men with one infantryman besides a cavalryman so the line goes:
 
I - Infantryman
C - Cavalryman
 
              I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C
              C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I C I
              IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
CCCCC  IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII               IIIIIII
CCCCC                                                                   IIIIIII
                                                                              IIIIIII
                 CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 
Then you can instantly mow down four times more enemies then you could with anything else. I have not noted the first two lines, but eve nif the enemy fires at you with his still superior force, his center should be well devastated, the C in the Reserve are for helping others out when the time is right and the other battalion is defending the flank. The I battalion is aswell defending a flank.
 
Raider, AFAIK nobody mixed infantry and cavalry in this way above. I think that it was good to mix only units of infantry with units of cavalry, but it could be unfortunately to mix single soldiers of infantry with single soldiers of cavalry.
 
Be correct with names!!! Second time in one minute i notice my name misspelled!!!
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 01:02
Originally posted by rider

Be correct with names!!! Second time in one minute i notice my name misspelled!!!
 
I'm so sorry Embarrassed


Edited by ataman - 19-Jul-2006 at 01:02
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 03:16
Hey, Ataman, have you seen that Osprey on Polish Winged Hussars? It came out this month.
 
 
Read the extract. Quite interesting (=must get that one).
 
Originally posted by Osprey

Contents
  • Introduction: History and Origins
  • Chronology
  • Recruitment & Organisation
  • Equipment
  • Wings
  • Horses & Saddlery
  • Campaign & Camp Life
  • Experience of Battle
  • Conclusion
  • Glossary
  • Museums
  • Collecting
  • Re-enactment
  • Colour plate commentary
  • Index
  • It seems normal, but I started to wonder, that what does Recruitment do in there? Weren't they professional soldiers and anyone who wanted became one, but they had to buy/manufacture their own weapons and armour and horses?

    Back to Top
    ataman View Drop Down
    Chieftain
    Chieftain
    Avatar

    Joined: 27-Feb-2006
    Location: Poland
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 1108
      Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 06:19
    Originally posted by rider

    Hey, Ataman, have you seen that Osprey on Polish Winged Hussars? It came out this month.
     
    I hope to have this Osprey soon.
     
    Originally posted by rider

    I started to wonder, that what does Recruitment do in there? Weren't they professional soldiers and anyone who wanted became one, but they had to buy/manufacture their own weapons and armour and horses?
     
    Well, a recruitment to a unit of Polish hussars had its specificity. It is described very well by Urszula Augustyniak in her book 'W służbie hetmana i Rzeczypospolitej' (it is a book about Krzysztof Radziwiłł's soldiers; Krzysztof Radziwiłł was a Lithuanian hetman). Part of his hussars were mercenaries. The other part were 'friends of Radziwiłł's family'. The other part was composed of Radziwiłł's 'klients' (meaning nobles who were depended on Radziwiłł; for example they were tenants of Radziwiłł's estates).
    As far as weapon and horses are concerned, it is true that hussars had to buy/provide weapon and horses for themselves (except lances).


    Edited by ataman - 30-Jul-2006 at 06:20
    Back to Top
    rider View Drop Down
    Tsar
    Tsar

    Suspended

    Joined: 09-Aug-2004
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 4664
      Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 08:59

    They had many lances, am I correct? And two pistols, a sword and a carabine. I have read this from somewhere. Also, three horses for one rider or was it one horse and one to carry packages?

    Back to Top
    Majkes View Drop Down
    Chieftain
    Chieftain
    Avatar
    Imperial Ambassador

    Joined: 06-May-2006
    Location: Poland
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 1144
      Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:08
    They had also a long sword called Koncerz and a hammer called Nadziak. Some had a bow. Hussar's sabre was probably the best in Europe. I don't know about horses.Ermm
    Back to Top
    rider View Drop Down
    Tsar
    Tsar

    Suspended

    Joined: 09-Aug-2004
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 4664
      Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:11

    Why was the Polish saber best in Europe? In the 16th century and 17th century, the best (or one of the best) swords were made in Sweden and I do not think they had sold many of their swords to Poland.

    Back to Top
    Mosquito View Drop Down
    Caliph
    Caliph
    Avatar
    Suspended

    Joined: 05-Aug-2004
    Location: Sarmatia
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 2537
      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:38
    Originally posted by rider

    Why was the Polish saber best in Europe? In the 16th century and 17th century, the best (or one of the best) swords were made in Sweden and I do not think they had sold many of their swords to Poland.

     
    It was a very special design and shape which allowed to make really strong cuts - if im correct affcourse. Im not a great specialist but iv heard  the comments of specialists who were saying that polish hussar saber was a masterpiece.
    By many it was considered as the best cavalry saber ever made. Ill look for more info about it


    Edited by Mosquito - 30-Jul-2006 at 09:41
    "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Back to Top
    Mosquito View Drop Down
    Caliph
    Caliph
    Avatar
    Suspended

    Joined: 05-Aug-2004
    Location: Sarmatia
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 2537
      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:45
    From wikipedia article:
     

    Hussar szabla

    The hussar sabre was perhaps the best-known type of szabla of its times and became a precursor to many other such European weapons. Introduced around 1630, it served as a cavalry mle weapon, mostly used by heavy cavalry, or Hussars. Much less curved than its Armenian predecessors, it was ideal for horseback fighting and allowed for much faster and stronger pushes. The heavier, almost fully closed hilt offered both good protection of the hand and much better control over the sabre during a skirmish. Two feather-shaped pieces of metal on both sides of the blade called moustache (wąsy) offered greater durability of the weapon by strengthening its weakest point: the joint between the blade and the hilt. The soldier fighting with such sabre could use it with his thumb extended for even greater control. The finger was shielded by a small ring of steel, protecting it from enemy weapon going along the sabre's blade. A typical hussar szabla was relatively long, with the average blade of 85 centimetres in total. The tip of the blade, usually some 15 to 18 centimetres long, was in most cases double-edged. Such sabres were extremely durable yet stable, and were used in combat well into 19th century. Its design influenced a number of other designs in other parts of Europe and led to the introduction of sabre in Western Europe.

    "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Back to Top
    ataman View Drop Down
    Chieftain
    Chieftain
    Avatar

    Joined: 27-Feb-2006
    Location: Poland
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 1108
      Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:50
    Originally posted by rider

    They had many lances, am I correct? And two pistols, a sword and a carabine. I have read this from somewhere. Also, three horses for one rider or was it one horse and one to carry packages?

     
    Rider, maybe we should continue this discussion in the thread destined to Polish winged hussars? There is already one in this forum.
     
    Anyway, hussars had lances from their commanders. Lances were very expensive weapons (the cost of a hussar lance was similar to the cost of a musket).
    The ammount of horses was between 3-6 per 1 hussar (there were war horses, but also horses for wagons etc.).
    This information is from a new book about Polish hussars ('Fenomen husarii' by Ryszard Sikora).


    Edited by ataman - 30-Jul-2006 at 09:51
    Back to Top
    ataman View Drop Down
    Chieftain
    Chieftain
    Avatar

    Joined: 27-Feb-2006
    Location: Poland
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 1108
      Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 09:58
    Originally posted by Majkes

    I don't know about horses.Ermm
     
    Polish war horses were also the best in Europe.
    There is for example Ottoman description of the battle of Vienna 1683, where the author praised Polish horses very much.
    Back to Top
    Mosquito View Drop Down
    Caliph
    Caliph
    Avatar
    Suspended

    Joined: 05-Aug-2004
    Location: Sarmatia
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 2537
      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 10:00

    And i found also this:

    "Można nią rwnież wykonać wszystkie najważniejsze cięcia zarwno te, do ktrych nadają się najlepsze zachodnioeuropejskie szable, jak i te, ktre można wykonać tylko szablą wschodnią lub mieczem japońskim, słusznie więc uznawana jest za najlepszą kawaleryjską szablę świata."

     
    What in english moreless means that with this saber it is possible to make all the cuts which can be made with the best western european sabers but also those which can be made only with eastern sabers and japanese swords so it is right to consider polish hussar saber as the best cavarly saber in the world.
     
     
    By the way, the hussar saber was in Poland usually called "Black Saber".
    "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Back to Top
    Mosquito View Drop Down
    Caliph
    Caliph
    Avatar
    Suspended

    Joined: 05-Aug-2004
    Location: Sarmatia
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 2537
      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 10:05
    Originally posted by ataman

     
     
    Rider, maybe we should continue this discussion in the thread destined to Polish winged hussars? There is already one in this forum.
     
     
     
    Well, first must be said that it is thread started by Rider so if he want he may discuss here whatever he wants.
     
    Second: Rider is a moderator of this forum so Im not sure if it is right to moderate our newest moderator LOL
    "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Back to Top
    rider View Drop Down
    Tsar
    Tsar

    Suspended

    Joined: 09-Aug-2004
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 4664
      Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 10:07
    Originally posted by ataman

     
    Rider, maybe we should continue this discussion in the thread destined to Polish winged hussars? There is already one in this forum.
     
     
    Hmm. Intersting thought. We should do that indeed.
     
    Please continue from the Renewal message, thanks.  
     
    @ Mosquito: Thanks, but I guess he is right. Should have noticed that myself, and I am the creator of the other topic too.


    Edited by rider - 30-Jul-2006 at 10:15
    Back to Top
    Mosquito View Drop Down
    Caliph
    Caliph
    Avatar
    Suspended

    Joined: 05-Aug-2004
    Location: Sarmatia
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 2537
      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 10:56
    Originally posted by rider

     
    @ Mosquito: Thanks, but I guess he is right. Should have noticed that myself, and I am the creator of the other topic too.
     
     
    I know, i was just joking. But dont think guys that i make laugh of you.. well, maybe a little bitLOL


    Edited by Mosquito - 30-Jul-2006 at 10:57
    "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
    Back to Top
    Majkes View Drop Down
    Chieftain
    Chieftain
    Avatar
    Imperial Ambassador

    Joined: 06-May-2006
    Location: Poland
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 1144
      Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 11:16
    Originally posted by rider

    Why was the Polish saber best in Europe? In the 16th century and 17th century, the best (or one of the best) swords were made in Sweden and I do not think they had sold many of their swords to Poland.

     
    Swedish sabre was maybe good because of good stel but You wouldn't do with it such cuts like with Polish sabre. I would have difficulties to explain it but polish saber was what is the best in western and eastern sabre.
    Back to Top
    rider View Drop Down
    Tsar
    Tsar

    Suspended

    Joined: 09-Aug-2004
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 4664
      Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 11:18

    Please, Majkes, into the other topic.



    Edited by rider - 30-Jul-2006 at 11:20
    Back to Top
    Timotheus View Drop Down
    Baron
    Baron
    Avatar

    Joined: 15-Aug-2006
    Online Status: Offline
    Posts: 478
      Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 01:03
    Sobieski beyond a doubt. Nobody else has a constellation named after him :D

    I'm not totally familiar with all of these, but I do know nobody had as great of an impact on world history. Sobieski was in many ways the second Charles Martel, if you follow my meaning.
    Back to Top
     Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

    Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

    Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
    Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

    This page was generated in 0.105 seconds.