Turkey,are Turkey can consider a Balkan

Tsar

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Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 05:56

Turkey is a part of the Balkans, and the Balkans are a part of Turkey, as simple as that.

Our people history and culture are linked (even if partiality) if we like it or not

Gargoyle

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Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 06:02

The following post is found in the "Vent your Frustration" Thread, located in the Tavern... It may explain to some people why Gargoyle disagrees with the whole region of South-East Europe being called the "Balkans"!

_________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 03:49 by Gargoyle

Why is it that the South East Region of Europe is called the Balkans. I really get

when people reffer to the Stupid Wars in the Former Yugoslavia in the early 90's as the Wars in the Balkans. This brings an undeserved Negative light on Bulgaria. The Balkan Mountain Range is located primarily in Bulgaria and it's name should not be used to describe the Region! What the hell does Croatia Bosnia and Serbia have to do with the Balkan Mountain Range. It really

Frustrates me! If you are going to talk about those Wars reffer to them as the Wars in the Former Yugoslavia PLEASE!!!!!

Ahhhhhhhh .... I feel better now.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Then again..... it may explain to some people that Gargoyle needs to get a Life!

es_bih

Caliph

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Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 14:51

Originally posted by Leonidas

Turkey is a part of the Balkans, and the Balkans are a part of Turkey, as simple as that.

Our people history and culture are linked (even if partiality) if we like it or not

definetly

Pacifist

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Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 18:57

Originally posted by the_oz

european countries teaching kids to be anti turk so they dont accept us as balcanian,euro. etc.(i dont care accept me as an asian).

Turkey teaching kids to be anti-European. ;)

Mordoth

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Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 19:01

Pacifist ;

You are wrong .

We are not educated to be a part of hate group .

The statement misleads people about the Turks .

Hospitality , mercifulness and warm blooded nature of us lie under our gloriou history .

If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|

Pacifist

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Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 19:01

Originally posted by the_oz

if you read history books which are shown at primary schools or high schools its written that turks are bloodthirsty and cruel people.also we all know that european kids grown with turcofobia.for exemple a known italian phrase "mama li turchi"explains what im saiyng.

the nationalism in EU not based on french,english,dutch nationalism.its based on superior white aryan nationalism.btw neo nazizm which is increasing day by day is an exemple of it.

I was born in Europe (and have lived there my whole life), but have never seen such textbooks. I don't remember even one negative thing taught to me as a child at school.

Edited by Pacifist - 05-Mar-2007 at 19:12

Pacifist

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Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 19:06

Originally posted by Mordoth

Pacifist ;

You are wrong .

We are not educated to be a part of hate group .

The statement misleads people about the Turks .

Hospitality , mercifulness and warm blooded nature of us lie under our gloriou history .

LOL, that's why we call them "gavur", "Ermeni tohumu", "Rum dolu" "Yahudi" etc etc... :D

You are wrong. Today, there is so much hatred and racism (call it what you want) towards non-Turks and non-Muslims in Turkey. There is also enormous anti-semitism. We hate Jews (not me of course). I'm not ashamed of confessing this. In my view we have to talk about it and expose it, in order to tackle this problem.

Edited by Pacifist - 05-Mar-2007 at 19:13

Mordoth

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Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 19:30

You or some people might call them " Giaour ( Infidel ) " , " Ermeni tohumu " , " Rum deoleu " ...etc

IT is not because of Turkish nationalism / education from infantry to adultary ...etc

IT is your problem if you insult another . ( I personally do not hesitate to cry what my nationality is ; owing to this i condemn anyone swearing others )

If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|

djoss

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 07:39

We must remember one thing, that many people seem to have forgotten: Turkey has illegitimately attacked, conquered, invaded and colonized South-Eastern Europe.

As a consequence, the Turks have pressed many Balkan people to convert to Islam. Most of them have proudly refused, but a minority of them (the traitors) have betrayed their own folk and dealt with the invaders to become richer and benefit many advantages. Those traitors (Bosnians, Muslim Albanians -among them Kosovo people-, Pomaks�) have become quite numerous for the last decades since they have a faster demography than others European folks.

But the presence in the Balkans of these �sold out folks� doesn�t make Turkish culture neither a European culture, nor a Balkanic culture. Turks were invaders (terrorists) and so their presence was illegitimate. So their culture is alien to Europe and to the Balkan culture. For example, the fact that England colonized Afghanistan in the 19^th century doesn�t make british culture a part of the Afghanistan identity. So, it is the same in the Balkans. The only true balkanic cultures are the Christian Balkanic cultures.

Even though many Turks claim to be European, this folk has no common points with Europe. As a European, I feel much more close to any Southamerican country than to Turkey. Turkey is a dangerous nationalist country, full of hatred toward Christians. They still kill the Armenian people (Hrant Dink) and other Christians (italian priest murdered) (Assyrian Christians attacked�) and threaten them every day, even though there are only 0,001% of Christians (the others have been killed or expelled). They forbid the building of churches, and still don�t recognise the armenian genocide (indeed, they are proud to have slaughtered them). They fight the Kurds and don�t recognise their language and identity.

Turkey is also a very poor and underdevelopped country with regard to Europe (most young people are unemployed). Turkey is the second country in the world for the ritual murder of girls (a speciality of the islamic culture): if a non-married girl dares to talk to a guy, her own parents slaughter her. This crime is very common in Turkey.

Moreover, the Turks are very endogamic. In Western Europe, the Turkish immigrants never mix with other population. They marry only among their own community. This shows that they don�t want to integrate themselves in Europe. In Paris, for example, there is now a turkish neighbourhood in the 10^th district.

To sum up, turkish culture is strongly nationalistic, imperialistic, criminal and oppressive toward Christians and underdevelopped. As such, Turkey is a big threat to European identity. If it�s true that their culture had a little influence on the Balkanic region (the main consequence of this bad influence is the fact that the Balkan region is today the poorest region of Europe), we must fight this bad and illegitimate influence and promote the true and genuine balkanic cultures (=the Christian balkanic cultures): Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Christian Albanian, Macedonian, Valak�.

Edited by djoss - 09-Mar-2007 at 07:48

Yiannis

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/401320.asp

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 08:33

djoss, that was a fine example of blind nationalism and religious fanaticism. In All Empires forum we try to keep dialogue as constructing and as far from being inflammatory as possible.

This is your first and final warning, if you insult other nationalities you will be instantly banned.

In the meantime please read and abide by the forum rules: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&FID=45&PR=3

Forum members: Please do not reply in the same manner, you should know better!

Edited by Yiannis - 09-Mar-2007 at 08:35

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Bulldog

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 13:01

Pacifist

I don't remember even one negative thing taught to me as a child at school.

Did you go to school

If you had looked up the definition of Turk in the dictionaries of past it would have wrote, "Uncontrollable, Unrully, Unpredictable person".

Pacifist

There is also enormous anti-semitism. We hate Jews (not me of course).

We? speak for yourself not for others your in no position to.

Djoss

We must remember one thing, that many people seem to have forgotten: Turkey has illegitimately attacked, conquered, invaded and colonized South-Eastern Europe.

Well if that's the case, Greeks, Romans, Slavs and the rest are in the same category.

Djoss

As a consequence the Romans pressed many Balkan people to convert to Christianity.

What's the difference?

If those who converted to Islam are traitors, according to your argument those who converted to Christianity are also traitors as they betrayed their "native Balkan religions" for others.

Oh and your argument that muslims in the Balkans just recently started breeding like rabbits is ridiculous. During the Balkan wars, muslims were targetted, its estimated around 2 million were killed/died and 2-3 million made refugees. This is a reason why nearly 1 out of 3 Bosnians have relatives in todays Turkey, why so many Kosovans and other Albanians, muslim macedonians, Pomaks and so on have relatives in today's Turkey.

They didn't just "appear" in the Balkans.

Djass

The only true balkanic cultures are the Christian Balkanic cultures.

Why? Christianity was foreign to the Balkans how is it different.

Djass

Even though many Turks claim to be European, this folk has no common points with Europe. As a European, I feel much more close to any Southamerican country than to Turkey.

Your correct, Turkish people arn't European but WHAT IS EUROPEAN?

Turkish people may not be European but people of the Balkans have more similarities with Turks, Turkish and Eastern Culture in some areas than they do with Western European customs and culture. Sarajavo, Prishtina, Prizen, Mostar and many towns, villages and cities in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania have more in common with Edirne, Istanbul, Bursa, Konya, Izmir than they do with Paris, London, Berlin, Stockholm.

So what is European?

Do Spain and Sweeden have anything in common?

How about Itally and Norway?

What about Portugal and Poland?

Or England and Estonia?

Now what exactly is this concept called "European", not even religion is always a binding point, Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians have shed as much if not more blood fighting their wars then they have done with Muslims and other non-Christians. For example the Crusaders desecrated the Hagia Sophia, looted it and sat a Prostitute inside it

If your Catholic you may find you have a bond with Latin America, if your Protestant or Orthodox there's not alot of similarity, ofcourse unless your Spanish.

Djass

Turkey is also a very poor and underdevelopped country with regard to Europe (most young people are unemployed).

Really, well Poland has an unemployment rate of 14.9%.

France has an unemployment rate of 9.1% Turkey has one of 10.2%, its hardly a huge difference.

Oh and Turkey has the 16th most powerfull economy of the world which is growing, its not as "underdeveloped" as you make out.

Djass

Never?

You should make up your mind, you accuse them of not mixing, however, when they marry non-Turkish woman then their accused of corrupting Western European woman.

Turkish immigrants have their fair share of problems and issues your correct but its not "all bad".

Turkish-Netherlands ties strengthening: Dutch Queen

There are many Turkish businessmen and entrepeneurs in Germany who have increaded German-Turkish trade.

In Paris, for example, there is now a turkish neighbourhood in the 10^th district.

So?

To sum up, turkish culture is strongly nationalistic, imperialistic, criminal and oppressive

Turkey is a big threat to European identity.

You still havn't explained exactly what this "identity" is.

we must fight this bad and illegitimate influence and promote the true and genuine balkanic cultures (=the Christian balkanic cultures): Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Christian Albanian, Macedonian, Valak�.

Oh yeah, the Greeks, Serbians, Christian Albanians, Macedonians and Serbians are one big happy united community who deerly love each other.

Wake up man, your in a dream world.

�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Antioxos

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 14:32

To criticize Ottomans with today standards is unscientific.Of course Ottomans were conquering areas ,the same did Venetians English Spanish Romans (East or West) and others.Everybody had the same goal ,incomes from the conquering areas.This was the reason that America was discovered ... money.

Theodosius I in 391, he outlawed the pagan temples . The temples that were thus closed could be declared "abandoned", immediately noted in applying for permission to demolish a site and cover it with a Christian church, an act that must have received general sanction.

This is an example that we cannot criticize historical events with today standards.

By antioxos at 2007-08-20

Mordoth

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 21:36

Djass

It is needed to be dealt with another branch of History that is COMPERATIVE history .

Of course the Ottoman invasions and conquests are no valid and acceptable no more .
But Europeans did the same .

So , you 've to evaluate what happened during the MEdieval ages in terms of the declared criterias of the era .

There is no need to be inflammatorily extreme nationalists in a history forum . It was history and so it still is .

If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|

djoss

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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 07:58

To Hiannis,

I'm sorry but I have no hatred toward Turks. I simply think that we should have the courage to put borders around Europe. And that we analyse with the same criterias the history of Europe and the history of Turkey.Why should we praise the Ottoman conquest when we critisize French and English colonialism?

To Bulldog,

�As a consequence the Romans pressed many Balkan people to convert to Christianity.What's the difference?�

Romans have actually pressed the people of the Roman Empire to convert. But then, after the fall of Roman Empire , the so-called �barbarians� who took on the military power over Europe were non-Christians. Despite this fact, they all accepted the Christian faith freely. The same for Slavic people who freely chose Christianism as their religion, despite the fact that they were not conquered neither by Romans, nor by the Greeks.

Unlike this, Islam spread only in countries that were military conquered by Arabs or Turks.

"Oh and your argument that muslims in the Balkans just recently started breeding like rabbits is ridiculous. During the Balkan wars, muslims were targetted, its estimated around 2 million were killed/died and 2-3 million made refugees."

It�s a well known fact that Kosovo people have at least 3 children per family, if not 4. (Many Kosovo people live in my country, where they are cause of many problems).

This exodus would have been fair (invaders must leave when they are defeated), but it actually didn�t take place. Unlike Algeria, where French were ALL chased out after the end of colonization, and the �traitors� (some Algerians supported the French) were all murdered by Algerians, the Austrians, when they conquered Bosnia, treated the Bosnians very well, better than the Serbians. The proof is that millions of Muslim Albanians, Bosnians, and Turks in Bulgaria were given the right to remain in Europe (of course this tolerance is not enough for them, now they want more, they want the right to create new islamist States in Europe).

"Turkish people may not be European but people of the Balkans have more similarities with Turks, Turkish and Eastern Culture in some areas than they do with Western European customs and culture."

Yes there are similarities but , as you point it out, only between the traitors and the Turks(Sarajavo, Prishtina, Prizen, Mostar are precisely "sold-out towns") For example see this: http://www.medresatz.edu.ba/?jezik=BS. Not between the true Balkanic folks and the Turkish. I went to Bulgaria and to Serbia, and I can tell you I don�t see any similarities between Turkish culture and Bulgarian culture, or between Greek culture and Turkish culture. The fact that 2 folks live next to one another doesn�t mean they have similarities.

"Now what exactly is this concept called "European", not even religion is always a binding point,

(...) So what is European?

(...)Do Spain and Sweeden have anything in common?

How about Itally and Norway?

What about Portugal and Poland?

Or England and Estonia?"

You are right in the sense that Europe has no objective reality. Europe is not a continent in itself, it is actually part of Eurasia. Despite this fact, none can doubt the existence of Europe as a specific part of the world. So in what lies the identity, the particularity of Europe? For me it is simple: Europe is the only place of the Western world that has resisted the islamic conquests. As such, Europe is the last free haven of the Western world. The concept of Europe has precisely appeared after the numerous attacks of the Muslims against our freedom (Arabs against Spain, South France and Sicily, Turks against Southeastern Europe, Moghol-Turkish against Russia and Ukraina). Those attacks have forged the idea that we belong to the same civilisation. And this civilisation is based on the Christian values that unify us, beyond our national and regional differences.

Unlike what you believe there are great similarities from Spain to Sweden, from Greece to Russia, that distinguish us from the islamic countries like Turkey:

1) the status of women: as I said Turkey is the world second country for the ritual murder of girls. Some Turks have even practiced it in France or Belgium. In Kosovo, the women have no value in the society until they give life to a boy (not a girl).

2) the freedom of speech and conscience: for example the right to believe in any religion or to criticize any religion. In Turkey this right is not respected: the Christians are still oppressed and see the murder of the italian priest after the caricatures.

3) the human rights, accepted in the European countries because they are consistent with the Christian faith, but not in the islamic countries.

4) the condemnation of colonialism :Europeans have freed their ancient colonies. On the contrary, Turkey refuses to free Kurdistan, and refuses to recognize the right of Armenians for a free Armenia.

5) the condemnation of mass murder:Turkey doesn�t regret the armenian genocide.

6) the citizenship: in Turkey or Kosovo people still belong to clans (tribes), which are more important to them than citizenship.

7) the exogamy :in Europe people and races mix each other, but Turks still practice endogamy).

8) the separation of Church and State: Turkey claims to be a seculiar State, but the hodjas (turkish imams) are employed and paid by the turkish State. And the current First Minister (Tayyip Erdogan elected by the majority) has declared: "The mosques are our barracks, / the domes our helmets, / the minarets our bayonets, / and the faithful our soldiers."

9) the acceptance of the legal State: in Kosovo or Turkey peole still practice the talion law, which contradicts the legal law.

All these particularities and values can be found in any European country, from Portugal tu Russia. These values make up a certain European spirit and point of view that unites us, beyond our regional and cultural differences. And the spread of these values throughout Europe is closely related to our common Christian faith. Because these values are all consistent with the Gospel (Christian Scriptures). And the Gospel (Teaching of Jesus) is the same for catholics, orthodox, armenians, lutherians, baptists... But it is not the same with Islam, since the Quran contradicts many of such values.

"Why? Christianity was foreign to the Balkans how is it different. (...) If those who converted to Islam are traitors, according to your argument those who converted to Christianity are also traitors as they betrayed their "native Balkan religions" for others."

Bosnians and Muslim Albanians are traitors because they collaborated with the invaders. They helped them kill the freedom fighters and oppressed the poor Christian farmers (Bosnians were the landlords). They helped them kidnap and enslave the young Serbians, and fought the liberation of the Balkans.

You are right when you say that the Christian faith was once (a long time ago) unknown in Europe. But at that ancient time Europe didn�t exist as a civilisation (Northern and Southern Europe were totally separated). It is the Christian faith that forged Europe as a civilization. And it is the Christian faith that brought Europe to its current level of developpment: before Christianism, the greatest part of Europe was underdevelopped and very poor compared to the Near Eastern. Then the Christian faith helped Europe develop and become what it is now. On the other side, the Islamization has ruined the Near Eastern. Once brilliant civilizations, Persia, Egypt, Nubia, Numidia, Mesopotamia have declined and regressed under the Islamic law, as well as Turkey that was much richer when christianized than now.

Edited by djoss - 10-Mar-2007 at 08:04

es_bih

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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 10:07

You do realize that it took over a century and a half for Bosnia to be even half Muslim. Same for many other countries. Egypt, Iran, etc for instance, they all took close to two centuries to have an Islamic majority living in them. Conversions were not forced. If they were then these numbers would have occured within half a generation, not within up to 10 generations.

es_bih

Caliph

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Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 10:09

PS. Bosnia had no Serbs, nor even Orthodox people living in it save for Hercegovina until the 1500s when Turks moved Vlachs, and some other Orthodox peoples into Northern Bosnia, as local militia to defend against Austrian incursions.

es_bih