Turkey,are Turkey can consider a Balkan

Unlike this, Islam spread only in countries that were military conquered by Arabs or Turks

When exactly was Indonesia, Malaysia, Southern Thailand millitarilly conquered by Arabs or Turks? Or how about Volga Bulgaria, Sub-Saharan Africa etc

 

Djoss

It�s a well known fact that Kosovo people have at least 3 children per family, if not 4. (Many Kosovo people live in my country, where they are cause of many problems).

 

Do you know, I hear this same argument all the time, just in different countries by different people. The minority are always somehow following some mass-breeding project, threatening the majority by out-populating them.

 

It's mostly a pack of lies, high birth-rates are generally more to do with poverty, social structure, rural dwelling and religion can be a factor, for example Catholics and Muslims generally have quite large families.

 

Djoss 

This exodus would have been fair (invaders must leave when they are defeated), but it actually didn�t take place.  Unlike Algeria, where French were ALL chased out after the end of colonization, and the �traitors� (some Algerians supported the French) were all murdered by Algerians, the Austrians, when they conquered Bosnia, treated the Bosnians very well, better than the Serbians. The proof is that millions of Muslim Albanians, Bosnians, and Turks in Bulgaria were given the right to remain in Europe (of course this tolerance is not enough for them, now they want more, they want the right to create new islamist States in Europe).

I find this entire paragraph patronising and pretty worrying.

Bosnians, Albanians, Sanjak muslims, Pomaks are as native as anybody else to the Balkans.Also there have been Turkic communities in the Balkans for over a millenia so I think they also have the right to call it home.

 

How about Gagauz Turks? they're Christian, were they "traitors" aswell?

 

If you think there is a large muslim population now its nothing compared to what it was 150 years ago, majority of the muslim population was either killed or exilled.

 

 

Djass

Yes there are similarities but , as you point it out, only between the traitors and the Turks(Sarajavo, Prishtina, Prizen, Mostar are precisely "sold-out towns")

 

So some of the most picturesque, well-known, beautiful areas of the Balkans are not actually "Balkan" but sold out traitors huh

 

 

For example see this: http://www.medresatz.edu.ba/?jezik=BS. Not between the true Balkanic folks and the Turkish. I went to Bulgaria and to Serbia, and I can tell you I don�t see any similarities between Turkish culture and Bulgarian culture, or between Greek culture and Turkish culture. The fact that 2 folks live next to one another doesn�t mean they have similarities.

 

Sorry but if you havn't found any similarities between Bulgarian, Turkish, Greek culture you must not know them very well.

 

I wonder who play's Bouziki, eats Dolma, drinks Ayran, has replica stories of Nasreddin Hodja called Clever Peter, dances the Zeybek.

 

Sure they arn't the same, sure there are differences but claiming there is nothing in common is ridiculous and being totally blind to the obvious.

 

 

Djass

You are right in the sense that Europe has no objective reality. Europe is not a continent in itself, it is actually part of Eurasia. Despite this fact, none can doubt the existence of Europe as a specific part of the world. So in what lies the identity, the particularity of Europe?

 

Simple.

 

An economic and pollitical union of states, co-operating on aspects of foreign policy, agriculture, trade, telecommunications, transport and so on.

 

It has nothing to do with "Culture". Its not a "cultural" union, there is no European mono-culture.

 

 

For me it is simple: Europe is the only place of the Western world that has resisted the islamic conquests.

 

An ironic comment, it was actually Muslim Spain that played a large role in modernized the rest of Europe.

 

 

As such, Europe is the last free haven of the Western world. The concept of Europe has precisely appeared after the numerous attacks of the Muslims against our freedom (Arabs against Spain, South France and Sicily, Turks against Southeastern Europe, Moghol-Turkish against Russia and Ukraina).

 

Oh and what about the Crusades huh or Russian actions in the Caucauses and so on, its hardly one-way traffic.

 

Plus, there were communities in the Balkans and Spain who preferred the Muslims to the Catholics. The Albanians and Bosnians didn't enjoy being exploited by the Church, a famous Greek saying was, "Rather the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope.�

 

 

Those attacks have forged the idea that we belong to the same civilisation. And this civilisation is based on the Christian values that unify us, beyond our national and regional differences.

 

Oh really? so why have Catholics and Protestants shed as much or if not more blood fighting each other than they have done with Muslims. Why don't Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox groups all love each other in this one unified civillisation.

 

 

Unlike what you believe there are great similarities from Spain to Sweden, from Greece to Russia

 

What are these???

 

 

1)      the status of women:

 

Here's some food for thought, Azerbaycan granted Woman's Suffrage in 1918 and Turkey in 1927, France carried this out in 1944, so point one is hardly a viable one.

 

 

Djass

the human rights, accepted in the European countries because they are consistent with the Christian faith

 

I hope you have proof to back this up. 

 

 

Djass

4)      the condemnation of colonialism :Europeans have freed their ancient colonies.

 

Havn't you heard about that law they're trying to pass in France, teaching about the glories of colonialism  wake up.

 

 

Djass

 On the contrary, Turkey refuses to free Kurdistan

 

It never occupied a country or area called Kurdistan to free it.

 

Hey, Serbia refuses to free Kosovo and Sanjak.......

 

 

Djass

the condemnation of mass murder:Turkey doesn�t regret the armenian genocide

 

It's never been proven in an international court, so its not definitive, its open to historians there are various views.

 

There is hardly any countries with a rosy history, nobody has a right to point fingers when everybodies as bad as each other.

 

Djass

the citizenship: in Turkey or Kosovo people still belong to clans (tribes),

 

 Is this guy for real.

 

Djass

the exogamy :in Europe people and races mix each other, but Turks still practice endogamy

 

Another baseless embarrasingly ridiculous comment, you like lumping people into stereotypes don't you.

 

 

Djass

the separation of Church and State: Turkey claims to be a seculiar State, but the hodjas (turkish imams) are employed and paid by the turkish State.

 

Would you rather they were paid by the Saud State, be carefull what you wish for, if Wahabbi Imam's took over Europe would be in trouble.

 

 

Djass

can be found in any European country, from Portugal tu Russia

 

Russia isn't a part of the EU.

 

 

Djass

These values make up a certain European spirit

 

What exactly is this European spirit? or are you just making it all up again.

 

Djass

And the spread of these values throughout Europe is closely related to our common Christian faith.

 

Hey, the Church's are mostly empty in Western Europe, most people arn't particularly religous, plus Catholics, Protestants, Prospeterians, Orthodox are hardly the "best of friends".

 

 

Djass

Bosnians and Muslim Albanians are traitors because they collaborated with the invaders. They helped them kill the freedom fighters and oppressed the poor Christian farmers (Bosnians were the landlords). They helped them kidnap and enslave the young Serbians, and fought the liberation of the Balkans.

 

Hah. It was more the other way round, Bosnians and Albanians were tired of tyranical rulers exploiting them, they found more security with muslims.

 

And traitors to who? to you, to Serbs? they arn't Serbs, they don't owe anything to you, they can act in their own interests, a traitor is somebody from within, seen as though they arn't Serbs how on Earth can you accuse them of being traitors.

 

 

Djass

You are right when you say that the Christian faith was once (a long time ago) unknown in Europe. But at that ancient time Europe didn�t exist as a civilisation (Northern and Southern Europe were totally separated).

 

Northern and Southern Europe still is culturally seperate.

 

 It is the Christian faith that forged Europe as a civilization.

And it is the Christian faith that brought Europe to its current level of developpment: before Christianism, the greatest part of Europe was underdevelopped and very poor compared to the Near Eastern.

 

Absolute historical mumbo-jumbo.

 

Europe did not advance and develop due to Christianity, after Christianity was adtoped, the Romans weakened to the point they collapsed, Europe sank into a dark-age and became increasingly backwards.

 

Roman Europe was hardly "backwards|" compared to the Near-East after Christianity.

 

It was backwards after the acceptance of the faith and rise of Islam and infact it was muslim thinkers, science and technology, in addition to the weakening of the Church and move towards secularism that caused Europe to advance.

 

This is a "history" forum, not religous romantiscm.

 

It's clear you are ignorant about Turks and Kosovans, have a pathological hatred fuelling in regards to them and cannot stand them.

You do realize that it took over a century and a half for Bosnia to be even half Muslim. Same for many other countries. Egypt, Iran, etc for instance, they all took close to two centuries to have an Islamic majority living in them. Conversions were not forced. If they were then these numbers would have occured within half a generation, not within up to 10 generations.

We must remember one thing, that many people seem to have forgotten:  Turkey has illegitimately attacked, conquered, invaded and colonized South-Eastern Europe.

As a consequence, the Turks have pressed many Balkan people to convert to Islam. Most of them have proudly refused, but a minority of them (the traitors) have betrayed their own folk and dealt with the invaders to become richer and benefit many advantages. Those traitors (Bosnians, Muslim Albanians -among them Kosovo people-, Pomaks�) have become quite numerous for the last decades since they have a faster demography than others European folks.

But the presence in the Balkans of these �sold out folks� doesn�t make Turkish culture neither a European culture, nor a Balkanic culture. Turks were invaders (terrorists) and so their presence was illegitimate. So their culture is alien to Europe and to the Balkan culture. For example, the fact that England colonized Afghanistan in the 19^th century doesn�t make british culture a part of the Afghanistan identity. So, it is the same in the Balkans. The only true balkanic cultures are the Christian Balkanic cultures.

Even though many Turks claim to be European, this folk has no common points with Europe. As a European, I feel much more close to any Southamerican country than to Turkey.  Turkey is a dangerous nationalist country, full of hatred toward Christians. They still kill the Armenian people (Hrant Dink) and other Christians (italian priest murdered) (Assyrian Christians attacked�) and threaten them every day, even though there are only 0,001% of Christians (the others have been killed or expelled). They forbid the building of churches, and still don�t recognise the armenian genocide (indeed, they are proud to have slaughtered them). They fight the Kurds and don�t recognise their language and identity.