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Philosophy of the Medieval Knight-Monk Orders

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  Quote Arktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Philosophy of the Medieval Knight-Monk Orders
    Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 11:35

Hello everyone this is my first message in what i hope to be a fruitful experience here. I am a 20 year old college student fascinated by the knight-monk orders of the medieval West. What particularly interests me is the interpreation of Christianity to fit the martial idealism? Well, we know Jesus says Do not resist evil and Turn the other cheek, but Augustine explains these refer to the interior attitude, not to external actions; and the non-pacifistic character of Christianity is seen in the Romans Epistle, wherein Paul presents the ideal prince who bears not the sword in vain, to punish evildoers. So what I am basically interested in is the philosophical and ideological justifications and self-image of the knight-monk crusading orders. I have not been able to find much about this in the literature. There is J. Brundage, Canon Law and the Crusader, but that is rare and I cannot find much else. Would anyone be able to help me in this regard? Thansk in advance.


   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 02:09
Originally posted by Arktos

Hello everyone this is my first message in what i hope to be a fruitful experience here. I am a 20 year old college student fascinated by the knight-monk orders of the medieval West. What particularly interests me is the interpreation of Christianity to fit the martial idealism? Well, we know Jesus says Do not resist evil and Turn the other cheek, but Augustine explains these refer to the interior attitude, not to external actions; and the non-pacifistic character of Christianity is seen in the Romans Epistle, wherein Paul presents the ideal prince who bears not the sword in vain, to punish evildoers. So what I am basically interested in is the philosophical and ideological justifications and self-image of the knight-monk crusading orders. I have not been able to find much about this in the literature. There is J. Brundage, Canon Law and the Crusader, but that is rare and I cannot find much else. Would anyone be able to help me in this regard? Thansk in advance.

 
I believe that European Christians generally did not follow the path to God, but merely used it for their own advantage. Knights were interested in profit and power. Some may have tried to be a hero, but with expensive armors, the food for both rider and horses, and the fact that they get paid from their kings or landlords made them corrupted. Furthermore, they are soldiers. They need to listen to their superiors and follow their orders to get paid, even if the order was Godless.
 
Monks were misguided sheeps.
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 02:09
By the way, welcome to AE.
     
   
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 15:47
I wouldn't say there is any Christian justifications for the use of violence. However, there are certain political agenda's within the bible which advocate the use of violence, in particular that evil man Paul. It is interesting that when a Christian tries to justify the mass murder in iraq, he often brings up references from the Bible which do not come from the mouth of Christ himself.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 18:32

Arktos:

Look for:

Desmond Seward, The Monks of War:  The Military Religious Orders.

Eric christiansen, The Northern Crusades.
 
William Urban, Teutonic Knights: A Military History.
 
Ask your professors also!  Make them earn that salary. 
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 18:36
Originally posted by Denis

I wouldn't say there is any Christian justifications for the use of violence. However, there are certain political agenda's within the bible which advocate the use of violence, in particular that evil man Paul. It is interesting that when a Christian tries to justify the mass murder in iraq, he often brings up references from the Bible which do not come from the mouth of Christ himself.
 
Uh, excuse us all over the place, but I believe the mass murdering in Iraq is being done by Moslems, is it not?
 
The initiator of the thread asked about the medieval crusading military orders, not about Moslems in the 21st century whose heads are in medieval times.  Don't politicize this.
 
 
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 13:42
The orders were originally formed to protect Pilgrims to the Holy Land from Bandits and Muslim fanatics, however protection rackets are easy to extort and exapnd :), The Templars became exceedingly wealthy for example. the leaders could be said to fight for power, but i dare say a few of the warrior monks were very pious and sought to do the right thing.
My peoples tale is written in blood
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 15:27
Pikeshot 1600,

Although I know very little about you other than you like to post lots of links to books every now and then, let it be assured that I think you are:

A) Misinformed
B) Naieve
C) What I feared most, a Republican.

If you want to talk with some common sense about this ridiculous assumption of yours by all means start a thread about it where you vile opinions can be squashed. Your the one politicising this with your Islamophobic nonsense at any rate.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 15:35
Denis:
 
You are right about one thing in that post:  you know very little about me. Smile
 
Obviously you don't like being disagreed with.  Keep your head down.
 
Now, would you like to discuss or just throw darts at me?
 
 
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 16:56
You made a post which has no basis in fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading straight from a neo-con message board.

And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 17:00
I suggest that we go back to the topic at hand which is Philosophy of the Medieval Knight-Monk Orders before this get nasty
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 17:01
Originally posted by Denis

You made a post which has no basis in fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading straight from a neo-con message board.

And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
 
What on Earth are you talking about?  What do the military crusading Orders have to do with 21st century Iraq?
 
What do they have to do with Republican neo-cons?  Are you interested in discussing the thread topic, or is this a soapbox for you?
 
Perhaps others "said nothing" because nothing was called for.
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 17:04
Originally posted by Dawn

I suggest that we go back to the topic at hand which is Philosophy of the Medieval Knight-Monk Orders before this get nasty
 
Dawn: 
 
No problem.  I am more than ready to resume the thread topic.  Surely others are as well.
 
 
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:31
I think the basics of how Medieval Christiniaty defined just wars is to be found in the writings of St Augustine.

The Internet Medieval Sourcebook (online texts) have a section on the Crusades with sources on the Military Orders. Should be useful.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:40
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Denis

You made a post which has no basis in fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading straight from a neo-con message board.

And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
 
What on Earth are you talking about?  What do the military crusading Orders have to do with 21st century Iraq?
 
What do they have to do with Republican neo-cons?  Are you interested in discussing the thread topic, or is this a soapbox for you?
 
Perhaps others "said nothing" because nothing was called for.
 
 


Such a gam. You're special, you deserve a Star

Were you drunk when you made your second post on this thread or something and forgot what you actually wrote? You cannot walk into a building throw a grenade and not expect a repercussion. To use a particularly daft analogy.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:42
Originally posted by Denis

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Denis

You made a post which has no basis in fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading straight from a neo-con message board.

And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
 
What on Earth are you talking about?  What do the military crusading Orders have to do with 21st century Iraq?
 
What do they have to do with Republican neo-cons?  Are you interested in discussing the thread topic, or is this a soapbox for you?
 
Perhaps others "said nothing" because nothing was called for.
 
 


Such a gam. You're special, you deserve a Star

Were you drunk when you made your second post on this thread or something and forgot what you actually wrote? You cannot walk into a building throw a grenade and not expect a repercussion. To use a particularly daft analogy.
 
Confused
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 19:01
[QUOTE=Joinville]I think the basics of how Medieval Christiniaty defined just wars is to be found in the writings of St Augustine.

The Internet Medieval Sourcebook (online texts) have a section on the Crusades with sources on the Military Orders. Should be useful.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html[/QUOTE]
 
It is difficult 800-900 years on to understand the attraction of vows of poverty and chastity, in combination with the privations of a military life far from home.  The only thing I can equate to such things is a sense of threat, outrage and zeal that is mostly absent from modern life - in the West anyway.
 
In the 11th and 12th centuries, there surely were material considerations involved such as the lack of opportunity at home for younger sons of noble birth, and the prospect of lands and wealth in other places, but still the religious aspect cannot be overlooked.  Why else would kings engage in crusading activity?
 
Another aspect of the crusading Orders is that of Iberia.  The Reconquista there was a crusade much more to drive out an invader than it was to be an invader.  Then as they developed, the Spanish and Portuguese military Orders were very important to the rise of exploration and the aggressive expansion of Europeans in the late 15th and the 16th century. 
 
By the mid 16th century, those Orders had become like the GAR or the VFW - the members were shadows of their former selves.  The decline of the Orders mirrors the decline of knights as the basis of military society.  The Reformation and the rise of state entities deprived them of their vitality.  Only the Turkish threat mitigated the decline, but even Christian state entities (France; the Dutch) made alliances with Turks and Moors as it suited their purposes.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 19-Feb-2007 at 19:09
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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 19:52
Denis: I don't take kindly to being ignored. Please stay on topic and cut the insults. What you're on about has nothing to do with the topic and no place here.  Consider yourself warned

Edited by Dawn - 19-Feb-2007 at 22:24
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:34
Dawn, I take it you didn't read his post when he said:
 
"Uh, excuse us all over the place, but I believe the mass murdering in Iraq is being done by Moslems, is it not?
 
The initiator of the thread asked about the medieval crusading military orders, not about Moslems in the 21st century whose heads are in medieval times."
 
That is the ignorance I was tackling. I already asked him to create a thread to defend his mind bogging ignorance.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:39
Denis, take the advice. Don't go on.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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