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Centrix Vigilis
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Topic: Philosophy of the Medieval Knight-Monk Orders Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 11:16 |
Pikeshot has provided you a key to the problem of unlocking the riddle. And he is correct, if you want to know why the Templar demise was promulgated, look at the extremely close relationship between the then King of France, Phillip the Fair and his hand picked Pope and close friend, Pope Clement V.
This coupled with their legendary near autonomy, from secular control, granted by the establishing papal bull, reference their order, (Which provided a basis for the amass of wealth and power.) is the key....
best
CV
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Top Gun
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Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 10:00 |
ok I read it in an magazine where I was thinking what an stupid magazine
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 09:07 |
Originally posted by Top Gun
yes are those insults against the templars justified |
The demise of the Templars reflects in a way the end of the Crusades. With the fall of Acre, 1291, there could be no more pretense of Europeans recovering the Holy Land.
For some of the Orders, that originated because of the crusading efforts in the Levant, there was less reason to exist. For others (St.John, Hospitalers), there was still purpose. And the Orders in Spain and Portugal, and in east Europe were still viable.
The Templars had amassed wealth and become rather exclusive and aloof from other nobility and also somewhat from the Papacy. The need of France's king for money, and the collusion of the puppet Pope (in Avignon) was a confluence of interests that caused the end of Templar influence, 1307.
The charges of heresy and all that were mostly trumped up.
Edited by pikeshot1600 - 23-Feb-2007 at 09:08
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 14:03 |
would all suggest this site for any and all interested specificaly in the Templars. http://www.templarhistory.com/ and http://www.knightstemplar-uk.co.uk/ I neither critique, commend or condone but they are usefull in gaining information.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 22-Feb-2007 at 14:07
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 11:14 |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Top Gun
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 10:50 |
yes are those insults against the templars justified
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 10:20 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Does anyone want to discuss the crusading military Orders?
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Yes.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 08:43 |
Does anyone want to discuss the crusading military Orders?
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 08:42 |
Originally posted by Denis
He is the one who made the post about the 'darned terrorists'. |
Please re-read the post, Denis. Where was anything said about 'darned terrorists?'
If you misquote people and hijack threads on AE you will get into trouble. Just some advice.
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Denis
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Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 05:42 |
He is the one who made the post about the 'darned terrorists'.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 18:56 |
Originally posted by Denis
Dawn, I take it you didn't read his post when he said:
"Uh, excuse us all over the place, but I believe the mass murdering in Iraq is being done by Moslems, is it not?
The initiator of the thread asked about the medieval crusading military orders, not about Moslems in the 21st century whose heads are in medieval times."
That is the ignorance I was tackling. I already asked him to create a thread to defend his mind bogging ignorance. |
Denis, do you have ADD? Did you forget what you wrote? Your the first one who mentioned Iraq.
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
Edward Abbey
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TheOrcRemix
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Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 18:52 |
chill
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True peace is not the absence of tension, but the presence of justice.
Sir Francis Drake is the REAL Pirate of the Caribbean
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Denis
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Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 09:57 |
I give up. Maybe I'm the only person here who dislikes seeing ignorance like that displayed and not challenged.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:39 |
Denis, take the advice. Don't go on.
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Denis
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Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:34 |
Dawn, I take it you didn't read his post when he said:
"Uh, excuse us all over the place, but I believe the mass murdering in Iraq is being done by Moslems, is it not?
The initiator of the thread asked about the medieval crusading military orders, not about Moslems in the 21st century whose heads are in medieval times."
That is the ignorance I was tackling. I already asked him to create a thread to defend his mind bogging ignorance.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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Dawn
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 19:52 |
Denis: I don't take kindly to being ignored. Please stay on topic and cut the insults. What you're on about has nothing to do with the topic and no place here. Consider yourself warned
Edited by Dawn - 19-Feb-2007 at 22:24
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 19:01 |
[QUOTE=Joinville]I think the basics of how Medieval Christiniaty defined just wars is to be found in the writings of St Augustine. The Internet Medieval Sourcebook (online texts) have a section on the Crusades with sources on the Military Orders. Should be useful. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html[/QUOTE]
It is difficult 800-900 years on to understand the attraction of vows of poverty and chastity, in combination with the privations of a military life far from home. The only thing I can equate to such things is a sense of threat, outrage and zeal that is mostly absent from modern life - in the West anyway.
In the 11th and 12th centuries, there surely were material considerations involved such as the lack of opportunity at home for younger sons of noble birth, and the prospect of lands and wealth in other places, but still the religious aspect cannot be overlooked. Why else would kings engage in crusading activity?
Another aspect of the crusading Orders is that of Iberia. The Reconquista there was a crusade much more to drive out an invader than it was to be an invader. Then as they developed, the Spanish and Portuguese military Orders were very important to the rise of exploration and the aggressive expansion of Europeans in the late 15th and the 16th century.
By the mid 16th century, those Orders had become like the GAR or the VFW - the members were shadows of their former selves. The decline of the Orders mirrors the decline of knights as the basis of military society. The Reformation and the rise of state entities deprived them of their vitality. Only the Turkish threat mitigated the decline, but even Christian state entities (France; the Dutch) made alliances with Turks and Moors as it suited their purposes.
Edited by pikeshot1600 - 19-Feb-2007 at 19:09
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:42 |
Originally posted by Denis
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Originally posted by Denis
You made a post which has no basis in fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading straight from a neo-con message board.
And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
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What on Earth are you talking about? What do the military crusading Orders have to do with 21st century Iraq?
What do they have to do with Republican neo-cons? Are you interested in discussing the thread topic, or is this a soapbox for you?
Perhaps others "said nothing" because nothing was called for.
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Such a gam. You're special, you deserve a
Were you drunk when you made your second post on this thread or something and forgot what you actually wrote? You cannot walk into a building throw a grenade and not expect a repercussion. To use a particularly daft analogy.
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Denis
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:40 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Originally posted by Denis
You made a post which has no basis in
fact. Do you want me to counter a ridiculous argument for the sake of
it? If you wish, make a post about 'those darned terrorists' on another
board, and I'll rip you to pieces there. Its pathetic. Like reading
straight from a neo-con message board.
And shame on everyone who read his post, and said nothing.
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What on Earth are you talking about? What do the military crusading Orders have to do with 21st century Iraq?
What do they have to do with Republican neo-cons? Are you
interested in discussing the thread topic, or is this a soapbox for you?
Perhaps others "said nothing" because nothing was called for.
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Such a gam. You're special, you deserve a
Were you drunk when you made your second post on this thread or
something and forgot what you actually wrote? You cannot walk into a
building throw a grenade and not expect a repercussion. To use a
particularly daft analogy.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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Joinville
Consul
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:31 |
I think the basics of how Medieval Christiniaty defined just wars is to be found in the writings of St Augustine.
The Internet Medieval Sourcebook (online texts) have a section on the Crusades with sources on the Military Orders. Should be useful.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html
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One must not insult the future.
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