Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Killabee
Earl
Joined: 01-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Topic: How did Sudan become an Arab nation? Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 02:44 |
I was told by one guy who claimed to be an expert in Middle East.
He said that the ancient Arab, especially the Quraish Tribe, were described in Sahih Al Bukhary as white-men looking with light skin complexion and sharp nose bridge.
I have attempted to find the source in Sahih Al Bukhary but failed. Can someone verify it?
Edited by Killabee - 16-Mar-2007 at 17:13
|
|
Kapikulu
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 09:29 |
Originally posted by Ibn Munqidh
Hello All,
I have studied the topic of arabs, their ethnicity, and their dispersion into the lands surrounding the near east for the past 14 centuries for a very long time. All I could say, that ethnically, the only arabs of today are those of the arabian peninsular, the levant, and Mesopotamia, these people are ethnically arab and have originated in the Yemen. Others, like egyptians, moroccans, and sudanese, are no more arab than a japanese man is, except that they speak the language. |
I particularly suspect about Mesopotamia because there had been huge amount of Turkic, and even more than that especially Persian influence on the area.
Edited by Kapikulu - 16-Mar-2007 at 09:29
|
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
|
|
Super Goat (^_^)
Pretorian
Joined: 22-Oct-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 180
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 20:56 |
I would have absolutely no idea what a moroccan or algerian
would be speaking, even though they allegedly claim it is
arabic. |
I thought this is so due to european colonization, especially algeria.
But I find this kinda funny though, since (to me at least) I don't
really find Khaliji or iraqi accents any better than the ones you
mentioned. Levant accents are the easiest to understand. Egyptian ones
are easy also, but only because of their widespread entertainment
industry. Basically, mix an uneducated population, with a little bit of forced western cultural assimilatory practices, and you'll have a distorted dialect.
Edited by Super Goat (^_^) - 16-Mar-2007 at 20:59
|
|
Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended
Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 04:53 |
I don't think the west has anything to do with different accents. Distance is enough to produce that.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 07:50 |
As Omar said, it is hard to believe that the colonization periods caused the dialects. However, you can say that the Classical Arabic use has been undermined by the colonization era to some extend.
Regarding the Arabic accents (or dialects), it is mainly a product of two factors:
1- Arabs of the Peninsula themselves spoke in various dialects and the immigration out of the Peninsula to the newly conquested regions dispersed those dialects around.
2- The Arabitized population of any region retained to some degree an influence of their original mother tongues. Many studies have pointed out that Northern African Arabic dialect are influenced by Berber languages. Also, recently I was astonished to read more about the influence of Aramic on the development of the Levantine accents. To give you some examples:
- "bah" "بح" which is said to the kid to mean that something has been totally consumed is actually an Aramic word directly loaned.
- Verbs such as "Jarjar"جرجر "Shamat" شمط and many more.
- Grammar of the accent follows a lot of the Aramic grammar structure. An example is that in classical proper Arabic "fusha", the structure of sentence follows: Subject - Verb- Object. Once you move the Verb to the front, it should be a singular conjugation and should not follow the Subject regardless if it is singular or plural. However, in Aramic, you match the Subject with the Verb regardless where is the Verb placed. Thus:
Arabic: Verb (singular form) - Subject (plural) - Object
Syrian Dialect: Verb (plural) - Subject (plural) - Object. <---- resembles the Aramic.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 20:48 |
Have you ever seen Algerian TV? The simple-minded side-kick only speaks arabic, the good guy half arabic half French, and the bad elite-looking fellow only French
|
I am a free donkey!
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 12:08 |
That is funny, because those elite-looking fellows are those who demand instituting Arabic as the only national language.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 13:12 |
Yes but by opposition to Kabyl not to French. These still send their kids to French schools.
|
I am a free donkey!
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 02:19 |
True. Though this trend is enforced lately by Boutaflika's policies. Algeria did not encounter that issue primarly before Boutaflika's time. In fact, the president before him, Liamine Zroual, was in fact a berber from Kabyla region.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 10:57 |
Hmmmm, to continue this completely off topic discussion (it's a shame what are the mod doing?) I'm afraid the FLN governments have a bit of a history when it comes to anti-kabyl policies. See, the "Berber spring" of 1983 When it comes to Bouteflika better or not I wouldn't know; it's a tiny bit difficult to compare him with Zroual as under Zroual there was a civil war claiming the lives of thousands
|
I am a free donkey!
|
|
Decebal
Arch Duke
Digital Prometheus
Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 11:26 |
Hey Hey! Do I have to drag you both by the ears? Open up a separate topic about Algeria... Isn't this about Sudan?
|
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 07:05 |
I'm a pan-Arabist, so it is one country from Algeria to Sudan ....
Just a joke.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
violentjack
Earl
Joined: 10-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 03:55 |
Islam spread to Indoesia, that is today, by trade.First part,
where Islam spread was peninsula called Aceh in 13 th century.By 16 th
century, all of Aceh region was true and true Muslim in term.This is
still considered a hot zone for Islamic as they say ''extremism'' by
some other Muslims
Muslims came to Java around 15 century.They werent as succesful as in
Aceh there, but in time and after king of Java accepted Islam all
became Muslim.And it is true, that Islam is universal faith.For
example, island of Maldives, was never conquered by Muslims.In 1138
Muslim traders of spices came to that Islam, persuaded Budhist king to
accept Islam, and today there is some 10 000 mosques in this island
nation of 350 000.So, imagine all the rush.Budhism was replaces by
Islam, in one single year.Muslims also came to Ceylon, traded, but they
werent as succesfull in converting Budhist king.Though they did have
some success on eastern part of Island, which is today majority Muslim,
but only in this part.Same goes with Mellaca and many other towns
Sudan became Muslim firmly by 14 century.Nubia kingdom was a Christian
ones, and Nubians became Muslims around that time.Nubia was bit bigger
in area, then present day Nubia.I believe it stretched to Khartoum of
today.Sudan borders were created in 1955.Places, where Muslims never
entered like Dinka area in the south, became part of Sudan.As for
Arabization,i really dont know.Somalis are Muslim proud people, but
still Somali, and Somalia is closer to Arab world.I dont know, maybe
they chose to be Arabized, or something
|
Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 09:10 |
Somal is an interesting case. Definitely some areas have an Arab traders heritage (along with many towns on the east coast of Africa). However, the majority do not speak Arabic as the mother tongue. Sawahili for instance is heavily rich with Arabic vocabularies, yet it is an indigienous language. This proves that ancient trade can be sufficient to significantly alter a language.
I was told that Gamal Abdul Naser (president of Egypt during 1960's) invited the Somal on the premises that they hold a substantional number of Arabic speakers.
Sudan is little differen where Arabs were the majority in urban centers and formed the elite of the government after independence. Arabitization of Sudan is definitely a result of historical deposits of Arab immigrants and also trade, which I mentioned earlier that it has the capability of significantly altering a language. This is the reason why Arabic was still a lingua franca of Sudan after independance before any so-called "Arabitization" process took over.
Edited by ok ge - 26-Apr-2007 at 09:15
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
Killabee
Earl
Joined: 01-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 01:19 |
Here is what I found on an article from sudanseseonline.com:
If we gave glance
to the Arabian tribes in Darfour region as a race , we notice that they
are not pure Arab , they are mixed with local African races , the Arab
in Darfour region only inherited the language and some traditions from
the Arabian folk , they are a mixture we should not call them Arab the
suitable terminology for them is an Afro-Arab tribes , they are black
skinned you cant even differentiate between them and the original
African people in Darfour , so what is always mentioned in the western
T.V channels and newspapers is a big lie , because the Arabs who are
accused by Darfour rebels of ethnic cleansing , they also suffer the same unstable circumstances and war disadvantages , they are war victims and lack many urgent needs , they are victims of the conspiracy that is planned by the rebels . http://www.sudaneseonline.com/en2/publish/Articles_and_Analysies_12/Is_the_janjaweed_an_Arab_by_Mr_Ismail_A_Mohamed-U__68.shtml
|
|
Killabee
Earl
Joined: 01-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 269
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 01:39 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDNn1Q5i3Vw&mode=related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_WuPyXxyGw&mode=related&search=
Look at the Sudanese Arab. They look no difference than the Nubian, Eritrean, Ethiopian.
|
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 14:10 |
Interesting article Killabee, especially this paragraph:
"Sudanese army in the war against the rebels except the air forces , they found the readymade army of janjaweed gang , they gave them the green light to burn , kill and loot all Darfourian people without paying attention to an Arab or an African , they used this gang and strengthened their equipments far from the Arabian tribes in Darfour"
However, we shall agree at least that an Arab today is a cultural and linguistic connection rather than racial one. If you run the genetic test, you will find out that less than 20% of today's Arabs are "pure" genetically Arabs. The Arab racial definition is already dead since the 7th century with the Arabitization of non-Arab Muslims (ex. Salman Al Farsi, Suhaib Al Rumi..etc).
The Janjaweed tribe can be called an Arab. However, I agree that the racial distinction has been overemphasized for political agendas.
Edited by ok ge - 27-Apr-2007 at 14:11
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|