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stung
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Topic: Defeating the Mongols Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 13:41 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by xi_tujue
are you refering to the Mamelukes in India?
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no, in Temrs last campaign he made a strategical circle movement like Caesar in Gallia or the Germans later in the invasion of France in ww2. he invaded Ottoman territory, ravaged through Syria and the Levante coast up to the borders of egypt, turned east against Iraq, then headed north and back into the ottoman empire to defeat Bayezit at Angora.
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Did he ever beat the Mmaelukes in pitched battles as he beat the ottomans?
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Temujin
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Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 13:47 |
no, Angora was the only pitched battle. to my knowledge as of now, Temr had no designs to invade Egypt proper, only to raid the Syrian and Palestine cities (like the siege of Damascus), and Mameluks didn't found it worthwile to field their army in a probably futile battle againt Temr.
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 14:08 |
We had won a battle against the nogaj tartars (Golden Horda) in 1285 under the hill of Regc, and some battles in the 14. cent. in Moldavia. (my sources are sadly not at home , but I try to get them back.
TSZ
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Penelope
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Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 21:52 |
Originally posted by stung
Actually he wasn't related but just claimed to be,he married to relitives of Genghis to try to legitimiz his claim. |
Stung, thanks for that info.
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Erdene
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 15:19 |
Burning your crop fields and the plains around will not starve the Mongol army, very difficult to starve nomads, they will have to burn a very very large amount to land to force the Mongols away, plus it means that the plains will be even more lush next season. It just means that the army will come back next season or just go somewhere else.
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Timotheus
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Posted: 30-Mar-2007 at 22:26 |
Best to fight them in a forest or marsh rather than open plain, to neutralize cavalry benefit.
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Opium is the religion of the masses.
From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.
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Penelope
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Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 00:53 |
The Mongols were also masters of "living off of the land", so i agree when people say that "burning crops would do nothing" but halt the inevitable for only a short period.
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Athanasios
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Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 15:04 |
I think that only Russians found the way to face the Mongols and to avoid the "burning land" stuff . Only Timur-i-lenk pushed them in the corner(the Golden Hord) and defeated them because of his strategy, his highly advanced army and the battlefield tactics( far the most powerful army of this ages) . His army was based mainly in heavy cavalry so the light mongol cavalry wasn't that effective without the tranditional "hit and run to the steppes" tactic against a less agile opponent
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Timotheus
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Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 23:24 |
Originally posted by Athanasios
I think that only Russians found the way to face the Mongols and to avoid the "burning land" stuff . Only Timur-i-lenk pushed them in the corner(the Golden Hord) and defeated them because of his strategy, his highly advanced army and the battlefield tactics( far the most powerful army of this ages) . His army was based mainly in heavy cavalry so the light mongol cavalry wasn't that effective without the tranditional "hit and run to the steppes" tactic against a less agile opponent
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In 1235-1240 Mongol armies under Subotai and Batu Khan decimated most Russian cities. The only major one that did not come under their control was Novgorod, partly because of weather and partly because Subotai ran out of time. They were later able to throw off the "Tartar Yoke" partially due to the Russians becoming more like the Mongols and partially due to the Mongols becoming more like the Russians. Tamerlane was not exactly Golden Horde, he is usually considered a separate empire from that.
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Opium is the religion of the masses.
From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.
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Penelope
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Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 00:34 |
Originally posted by Timotheus
Originally posted by Athanasios
I think that only Russians found the way to face the Mongols and to avoid the "burning land" stuff . Only Timur-i-lenk pushed them in the corner(the Golden Hord) and defeated them because of his strategy, his highly advanced army and the battlefield tactics( far the most powerful army of this ages) . His army was based mainly in heavy cavalry so the light mongol cavalry wasn't that effective without the tranditional "hit and run to the steppes" tactic against a less agile opponent
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In 1235-1240 Mongol armies under Subotai and Batu Khan decimated most Russian cities. The only major one that did not come under their control was Novgorod, partly because of weather and partly because Subotai ran out of time. They were later able to throw off the "Tartar Yoke" partially due to the Russians becoming more like the Mongols and partially due to the Mongols becoming more like the Russians. Tamerlane was not exactly Golden Horde, he is usually considered a separate empire from that.
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Genghis Khan gave Subutai and Jebe an army of 20,000 warriors, and 2 years to hunt down the Shah of the Khwarezmid Empire. After the death of the Shah, that same army pushed deep into Armenia and Azerbaijan. The army destroyed Georgia, sacked the Genoese trade-fortress of Caffa, in Crimea, and stayed over winter near the Black Sea. Heading home, the army assaulted the Kipchaks and were intercepted by the allied troops of Mstislav the Bold of Halych and Mstislav III of Kiev, along with about 80,000 Kievan Rus'. Subutai sent emissaries to the Slavic princes calling for separate peace, but the emissaries were executed. At the Battle of Kalka River in 1223, the army defeated the larger Kievan force. The army's first and last defeat, came at the hands of the Volga Bulgars, in the first attempt in 1223, though they returned to avenge their defeat by subjugating all Volga Bulgaria under the Khanate Golden Horde.
ALL of THIS, was done with an Army of only 20,000 warriors, the army ofcourse suffered casualties, but NEVER recieved Any reinforcements throughout its campaigns.
After all of this, Genghis Khan FINALLY, recalled this force back to Mongolia.
This famous cavalry expedition of Subutai and Jebe, in which they encircled the entire Caspian Sea defeating every single army in their path, remains unparalleled to this day.
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Athanasios
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 15:57 |
Originally posted by Timotheus
In 1235-1240 Mongol armies under Subotai and Batu Khan decimated most Russian cities. The only major one that did not come under their control was Novgorod, partly because of weather and partly because Subotai ran out of time. They were later able to throw off the "Tartar Yoke" partially due to the Russians becoming more like the Mongols and partially due to the Mongols becoming more like the Russians. Tamerlane was not exactly Golden Horde, he is usually considered a separate empire from that.
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No , of course he was not considered as "Golden Horde" empire... That i was trying to say was that he defeated the Golden Horde because he pushed them in the "corner". Actually it was the Novgorod kingdom which create some tactics to avoid the useless and devastating chase of the Mongols into the steppe. I suppose that when you say partially due to the Russians becoming more like the Mongols and partially due to the Mongols becoming more like the Russians, you mean that the Mongols became "sloth" warriors and the Russians adopted Mongolian tactics to repulse them? Well, i'm not pretty sure about this but in Vactrian region(in Timur-i-Lenks era) that didn't happen... To be more specific, the Mongol warriors who lived outside the cities, insisted in the old traditional way of warfare and usually pillaged the lands around the cities to have enough supplies to pass the winter. The inhabitants of the cities , considered them (the mongols) as common thiefs. A kind of town guard was organised in those cities , which was quite skillful to face the danger, reliable enough so Timur-i-lenk took them in his campaigns as a part of his army. So, if i understand correct that what you said about the Mongol-Russian subject, something similar haven't had happened in other regions were Mongols lived, so incidents like this ,i think is not a rule.
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sd305
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Posted: 12-Apr-2007 at 18:39 |
i'd defeat the mongols with these two words:
carpet bombing
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Hulegu Han
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 05:43 |
Originally posted by pekau
No worries. That's why huge Mongolian Empire was broken down to several smaller empires... and each of them declining until the only Mongolian power that manage to survive is in where Mongol is now. |
actually it's wrong to say only survived mongol power was in what is now Mongolia. there are many khanates which once occured from great mongol conquests and consisted of mongolians, such as Kazakh, Uzbek, Hiva, Tatar khanates.
Also I want to mention that Mongolian army was not horde, in contrary there were the most powerful and well-trained army in their times. they used to manage to defeat enemies vast power with few warriors. Want a example? Just 300 mongol warriors swept into all over Korea 1250s and succeeded in obliging Korean kingdom which had ability to build army of at least 50,000...
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