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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scythians
    Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 11:20
there is also an another epope about Schtians.Alp Er Tunga,the Schtian Khan
women in military ranks and women leaders were very usual in Turks.Queen Tomryis is a good example.
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by kajdom

@ nick

with respect to pashtuns. your evidence doesn't show that pashtuns are from scythians. scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea. since there is not much known scythian words you can't claim that pashtun language is close or closest one to scythian language. we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that). about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun. I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi and beside I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
Dear Kajdom I have said it before and i well say it  again NOT all Pashtuns are Scythians, Scythains was just a name they were refered to. Scythians are a tribe of Afghans. People think of Pashtuns as an one Ethinic/group/race, its like saying all English speakers are Angels or all the Parsi speakers (Persians) are from one race. No... Pashtu is the language the word Pashtun comes from Pashtuwan with the word "WAN" they mean the language. Pashtuns/Pathan etc etc are just words given to these Afghan people. They have always called themselves "AWghan" and having both the Language, culture, and racial backround of Pashtu you are considered 100% Afghan.
 
But Pashtu over time has been used as National langauge of Many empires like the Zafferides, even today modern Punjabis/Indics of Pakistan (Around 10 million) speak this Pashtu langauge (They are considered Pashtun) since they hav been living in the Afghan region Pashtunistan (Since 1965). If you ever go to Karachi, Pashtu is also spoken there, and what about Pashtu speakers of Iran (Sistan/Khorasan) So Pashtuns are not a single ethinic its just a langauge like Parsi/English/Franch etc etc.
 
DFear Think...Do you Think if i speak Persi, i am going to be a Persian??? NO that's why Persian in not Ethinic and so aren't the Pashtuns.
 
 
scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea
 
There is no prove until this day to support this Idea. Even 200 years ago. European knew that Scythains were not natives of that area, they thought Scythains came from Siberia (North EAst Of China). And over time many other theories were present regarding the origions of Scythain, it wasn't until more discoveries found in Afghanistan which was older then the Achaemenid Empire, Assyrian Empire. And to date they never had any Empire until they faced pressure from north West "Achaemenid" Scythians had developed cities like Zarhaj south western Afghanistan bordered with Iran. And more Evidence from the Burned city founded in 2004 the city was dated 3500 years old, signs of Scythians were seen everywhere.
 
And name me any Euopean/Azerbjiani tribe or people bearing the evidence of Scythains? NON and over time even the Greek source mentions Sakazia.
 
we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that)
 
dear first of all Scythain had no language other then Pakhtrian (Not until they reached Europe 800 BCE second how can Scythain be close to Persian when persian was not even around. Modern Persian is slang mixed Arabic/Samanidi. And the oldest Persian Langauge we have today is from Ferdowsi (Dari)
 
With all all restpact to people who created Parsi/Dari but dear Persian is not that old indeed far older then most of the European Langauges. And having the greatest Poets of all time.
 
about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun.
 
dear you must have been mis-informed, yes i know there is a link between Medes and Avestains but not this far to say that Avesta belongs to Parsi or Palvi. they both are western Iranian languages and Pashto is the closest langauge to Avesta. Dear there are many sources out there which you might want to have a look at.
 
 
I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi 
 
That has to be Kurdish cause there is no other langauge alive closest to Palavi other then Kurdish. BTW Kurdish is the oldest langauge in Iran, althought it has a lot of Islamic, Hebrew, Turkish words duo to different religions and believes of Kurdish people, but still older then Parsi.
 
 
  I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
No hard feeling dear, but you need to prove yourself, cause i know there are many prefessors, ethnologist, lingustists, historians who believe Pashtu to be the closest to Avesta (And you what dear the Pashto langauge prove itself to be avestian either anyone agrees or disagree) yes indeed Parsi,Kurdi/Palavi and other iranian langauges were all influnced by Avestian after all it was the Language of Zoroastria. BTW if you read the book you would know that Zoroastria himself says that he's "Pakhtrian"
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 21:11
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Nick

offcourse thats what everybody have been saying Rid Veda was created in Sariswati river (ie Punjab) but no-one really knew where is Sariswati (Offcourse there are many Indian rivers named sariswati but was identified as old as rig-vada.  
 
The location of the Saraswati River is very well known. It is a dried up river that flowed through much of Sindh, Pakistan and crossed over into Eastern Punjab. Yes, there are people trying to manipulate things and claim the Saraswati was in Afghanistan, but the Rig Veda is very clear on where it is.
 
Favour ye this my laud, O Ganga, Yamuna, O Sutudri, Parusni and Sarasvati:
With Asikni, Vitasta, O Marudvrdha, O Arjikiya with Susoma hear my call.
First with Trstama thou art eager to flow forth, with Rasa, and Susartu, and with Svetya here,
With Kubha; and with these, Sindhu and Mehatnu, thou seekest in thy course Krumu and
Gomati.
(RV, Mandel 10, 75)
 
The rivers go Ganges, Yamuna, Sutudri....Saraswati.........Sindhu.......Krumu and Gomati from East to West. All these rivers excepting the Ganges and Yamuna are found in Pakistan. This is of course assuming you believe the Rig Veda, but the Rig Veda is the Vedic people's own records.
 
The Saraswati River was not the mightiest river according to the Rig Veda either, it was clearly the Indus River and it mentions this over many times.
 
The Rivers have come forward triply, seven and seven. Sindhu in might surpasses all the streams that flow.Varuna cut the channels for thy forward course, O Sindhu, when thou rannest on to win the race.
(RV, mandel 10, 75)
 
There is an weak argument that the Saraswati is in Afghanistan, but it wouldn't make much difference. According to the Rig Veda, the Indus is the main river of the Vedic people.
 
The Vedic People: Their History and Geography (Orient Longman, New Delhi, 1999), where he decides that in the RAmAyaNa (which he examines for the geography of the Rigveda), SarasvatI is identified with Helmand and GaNgA and YamunA as its tributaries in the hilly areas of Afghanistan.
 
Does this honestly make sense to you? The Ganges is a tributary of Helmand? It's one of those pieces of desperate revisionism that doesn't work.
 
Forget about Aryan invasion there isn't enough prove of Aryan invasion and killing of massive local Pakistanis (Indus River) but there are fact thats that Aryan were not natives of hindus River, and that during rig-Vada Aryans (Aogyans in avesta) were already intermixed with local natives of Indus river (Pakistan) to Ganga river.
 
I don't believe in an Aryan invasion the way it's told. Just a migration into the region and perhaps intermixing with the natives in Pakistan to various degrees.
 
As we can see some conflicts between like the Bharata's Invasion which is right from Afghanistan.
 
And there are many hindu-Indians who study not just the region but also the book and from other evidence that Rig-Vada was created in Afghanistan. Its interesting how both languages are close to each other and both were created in Afghanistan. And that same old theory of Avesta being created from Azerbijan and And Rig-vada from Indus river is just off the topic.
 
It's off topic perhaps, but I'm not really interested in the topic, more interesting is your assertion of Helmand being the location of Saraswati and the main river of the Vedic civilization when it clearly isnt and wasnt.
 

Prof. Kochhar's thesis is briefly as follows. During the Harappan age, the Indo-Iranian tribes settled in Afghanistan, and started composing the hymns of the Avesta and Rg-Veda. The main lifeline of their civilization was the Saraswati river of southwestern Afghanistan, known as Harahvaiti in Avestan and Helmand (from Haetumant/Setumant) in modern Afghan. In the declining centuries of Harappa, ca. 1900 BC, some non-Vedic Aryans moved into India, and their imprint is visible in a few Aryan elements in late-Harappan cities, such as fire-altars, which AIT skeptics have prematurely taken as proof of the predominantly Aryan identity of the Harappan civilization ("Features like the fire altars at Kalibangan and Lothal and the horse at Surkotada appear in the late Harappan phase thanks to the arrival of the Indic-speaking elements", p.206). By 1400 BC, a second wave of Aryans, equipped with the first half or so of the hymns which make up the Rg-Veda, entered India.

 
Not interested in "Professor"  Rajesh Kocchar..I could quote you an equally weak version of everything from "India" by Koenraad Estl. What you've quoted contains no fact backed up by evidence. If you want evidence you can find it in the Vedic people's own book. The Indus River was the main river of the Vedic people in Pakistan, the Saraswati was most likely the dried up river that also flowed through Pakistan (and also into the extreme northwest of India also).
 
 
TeldeInduz after all that fact you get little emotional. Body You have the right to reject anything you want especially when it comes to religion. After all you live to believe in that book and i am sorry if i disturbed you. Sanskirt is a very sensitive book many Europeans and historians have pulled their hands off this book (Specially after they found that they (whites) were no-where near being Aryan).
 
It's very hard for Hindus/subcontinent of south Asia to believe that their holy book was created by the same reckless Afghans who over years have been destroying their tambles for years, and forcing Islam. We can feel that hate. And That's why i take back my words, so that other hindu friends don't get disturbed.
 
 
 
 
Nowdays we know more about Reg-vada then we ever did.  Anyhow if you are interested in further studing Reg-vada please keep researching. You will get the answer
 
 
 
 
BTW Important Personal Question.
 
Are you a hindu?


Edited by Nick - 05-Feb-2007 at 21:21
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 21:17
Originally posted by EGETRK

sakas were turkic...
 
Egeturk we still havn't found the root of Turks and you think Scythains were Turks????
 
All we know about Turks is their massive expantion during central Asian Massive waves of movement less then 1700 years, and the second Turkish movement known as Mongols, and then 3rd one into modern Turkey and intermarriages with Europeans (And with Native  Aryanics)
 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 03:44
Originally posted by Nick

TeldeInduz after all that fact you get little emotional.
 
?
 
Body You have the right to reject anything you want especially when it comes to religion. After all you live to believe in that book and i am sorry if i disturbed you. Sanskirt is a very sensitive book many Europeans and historians have pulled their hands off this book (Specially after they found that they (whites) were no-where near being Aryan).
 
I see, so you're saying that the Europeans (whites) got a hold of that there Rig Veda, cast a spell over the subcontinental people who knew the Rig Veda so they forgot what was in it, then manipulated the Rig Veda to prove that the Vedic civilization existed only in Pakistan. A question, why in the world would they want to do this?
 
It's very hard for Hindus/subcontinent of south Asia to believe that their holy book was created by the same reckless Afghans who over years have been destroying their tambles for years, and forcing Islam. We can feel that hate. And That's why i take back my words, so that other hindu friends don't get disturbed.
 
It might well have been created by an Afghan ancestor who lived in the region of modern day Pakistan on the Indus. What's known is that the Vedic civilization existed all over Pakistan and minorly overlapped into Afghanistan and North West India.
 
Nowdays we know more about Reg-vada then we ever did.  Anyhow if you are interested in further studing Reg-vada please keep researching. You will get the answer
 
I've given you the references from the Rig Veda itself, you havent given anything except an unimaginative hypothesis that Europeans fooled everyone by changing a scripture to shift the location of Vedic civilization from Afghanistan to Pakistan for some reason, and that people in the subcontinent paid no attention.
 
BTW Important Personal Question.
 
Are you a hindu?
 
Confused 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 06-Feb-2007 at 03:45
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 03:55
I liked this topic so much.
Then what do you think about my opinions (on Schytians/Askenazi jews and on similarity of DNAs of Askenazi Jews and Kurds) discussed on topic Jewish Nation in Khazar in http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16924&KW=&PID=324919#324919
 
DNA research results make me conclude that Arian/Iranian Meds (who are accepted to be origin of Kurds  in some sources) and and Arian/ıranian Scythians (who are accepted to be synonym of Askenazi) share similar DNAs because of comman ancestors
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  Quote kajdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 05:17
Originally posted by Nick

Originally posted by kajdom

@ nick

with respect to pashtuns. your evidence doesn't show that pashtuns are from scythians. scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea. since there is not much known scythian words you can't claim that pashtun language is close or closest one to scythian language. we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that). about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun. I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi and beside I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
Dear Kajdom I have said it before and i well say it  again NOT all Pashtuns are Scythians, Scythains was just a name they were refered to. Scythians are a tribe of Afghans. People think of Pashtuns as an one Ethinic/group/race, its like saying all English speakers are Angels or all the Parsi speakers (Persians) are from one race. No... Pashtu is the language the word Pashtun comes from Pashtuwan with the word "WAN" they mean the language. Pashtuns/Pathan etc etc are just words given to these Afghan people. They have always called themselves "AWghan" and having both the Language, culture, and racial backround of Pashtu you are considered 100% Afghan.
 
But Pashtu over time has been used as National langauge of Many empires like the Zafferides, even today modern Punjabis/Indics of Pakistan (Around 10 million) speak this Pashtu langauge (They are considered Pashtun) since they hav been living in the Afghan region Pashtunistan (Since 1965). If you ever go to Karachi, Pashtu is also spoken there, and what about Pashtu speakers of Iran (Sistan/Khorasan) So Pashtuns are not a single ethinic its just a langauge like Parsi/English/Franch etc etc.
 
DFear Think...Do you Think if i speak Persi, i am going to be a Persian??? NO that's why Persian in not Ethinic and so aren't the Pashtuns.
 
 
scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea
 
There is no prove until this day to support this Idea. Even 200 years ago. European knew that Scythains were not natives of that area, they thought Scythains came from Siberia (North EAst Of China). And over time many other theories were present regarding the origions of Scythain, it wasn't until more discoveries found in Afghanistan which was older then the Achaemenid Empire, Assyrian Empire. And to date they never had any Empire until they faced pressure from north West "Achaemenid" Scythians had developed cities like Zarhaj south western Afghanistan bordered with Iran. And more Evidence from the Burned city founded in 2004 the city was dated 3500 years old, signs of Scythians were seen everywhere.
 
And name me any Euopean/Azerbjiani tribe or people bearing the evidence of Scythains? NON and over time even the Greek source mentions Sakazia.
 
we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that)
 
dear first of all Scythain had no language other then Pakhtrian (Not until they reached Europe 800 BCE second how can Scythain be close to Persian when persian was not even around. Modern Persian is slang mixed Arabic/Samanidi. And the oldest Persian Langauge we have today is from Ferdowsi (Dari)
 
With all all restpact to people who created Parsi/Dari but dear Persian is not that old indeed far older then most of the European Langauges. And having the greatest Poets of all time.
 
about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun.
 
dear you must have been mis-informed, yes i know there is a link between Medes and Avestains but not this far to say that Avesta belongs to Parsi or Palvi. they both are western Iranian languages and Pashto is the closest langauge to Avesta. Dear there are many sources out there which you might want to have a look at.
 
 
I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi 
 
That has to be Kurdish cause there is no other langauge alive closest to Palavi other then Kurdish. BTW Kurdish is the oldest langauge in Iran, althought it has a lot of Islamic, Hebrew, Turkish words duo to different religions and believes of Kurdish people, but still older then Parsi.
 
 
  I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
No hard feeling dear, but you need to prove yourself, cause i know there are many prefessors, ethnologist, lingustists, historians who believe Pashtu to be the closest to Avesta (And you what dear the Pashto langauge prove itself to be avestian either anyone agrees or disagree) yes indeed Parsi,Kurdi/Palavi and other iranian langauges were all influnced by Avestian after all it was the Language of Zoroastria. BTW if you read the book you would know that Zoroastria himself says that he's "Pakhtrian"
 
 
 
 


Dude I feel really sorry for you and the source you use for your information. who said zoroaster is so called pakhterian. He and his family are from Land of holy fire Azarabadegan ( today azarbaijan ) and his birth place was near Aras river. later he went to bacteria. Parthian and today tajiks are closest people to bacterians. I should to tell you for last time pashtu language maybe is similar to avestan because it is one of the Iranic languages so it is not new, but pahlavai language and  today persian is more similar to avestan.  I can't understand why you are try hard to claim such things. what is your sources for your claims. I can speak and understand avestan because it is the language that we pray every time. so why are you trying to convince me pashtu language is closest language to avesta. Agian you are wrong about  kurdish language is only close language to pahlavi. in diffrent places in iran you can find some local dialect of persian that is similar to pahlavi for example I know  awrami, sangesari and some local dialects around yazd and kerman in iran are very close to pahlavi too. I speak kermani dialect of old Dari (not Afghani Dari).Smile


Edited by kajdom - 06-Feb-2007 at 05:25
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  Quote kajdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 05:27
I don't need to prove anything since I don't claim strange things you do. You need to back up your claims with relaiable sources,
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 14:28
Originally posted by kajdom

Originally posted by Nick

Originally posted by kajdom

@ nick

with respect to pashtuns. your evidence doesn't show that pashtuns are from scythians. scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea. since there is not much known scythian words you can't claim that pashtun language is close or closest one to scythian language. we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that). about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun. I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi and beside I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
Dear Kajdom I have said it before and i well say it  again NOT all Pashtuns are Scythians, Scythains was just a name they were refered to. Scythians are a tribe of Afghans. People think of Pashtuns as an one Ethinic/group/race, its like saying all English speakers are Angels or all the Parsi speakers (Persians) are from one race. No... Pashtu is the language the word Pashtun comes from Pashtuwan with the word "WAN" they mean the language. Pashtuns/Pathan etc etc are just words given to these Afghan people. They have always called themselves "AWghan" and having both the Language, culture, and racial backround of Pashtu you are considered 100% Afghan.
 
But Pashtu over time has been used as National langauge of Many empires like the Zafferides, even today modern Punjabis/Indics of Pakistan (Around 10 million) speak this Pashtu langauge (They are considered Pashtun) since they hav been living in the Afghan region Pashtunistan (Since 1965). If you ever go to Karachi, Pashtu is also spoken there, and what about Pashtu speakers of Iran (Sistan/Khorasan) So Pashtuns are not a single ethinic its just a langauge like Parsi/English/Franch etc etc.
 
DFear Think...Do you Think if i speak Persi, i am going to be a Persian??? NO that's why Persian in not Ethinic and so aren't the Pashtuns.
 
 
scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea
 
There is no prove until this day to support this Idea. Even 200 years ago. European knew that Scythains were not natives of that area, they thought Scythains came from Siberia (North EAst Of China). And over time many other theories were present regarding the origions of Scythain, it wasn't until more discoveries found in Afghanistan which was older then the Achaemenid Empire, Assyrian Empire. And to date they never had any Empire until they faced pressure from north West "Achaemenid" Scythians had developed cities like Zarhaj south western Afghanistan bordered with Iran. And more Evidence from the Burned city founded in 2004 the city was dated 3500 years old, signs of Scythians were seen everywhere.
 
And name me any Euopean/Azerbjiani tribe or people bearing the evidence of Scythains? NON and over time even the Greek source mentions Sakazia.
 
we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that)
 
dear first of all Scythain had no language other then Pakhtrian (Not until they reached Europe 800 BCE second how can Scythain be close to Persian when persian was not even around. Modern Persian is slang mixed Arabic/Samanidi. And the oldest Persian Langauge we have today is from Ferdowsi (Dari)
 
With all all restpact to people who created Parsi/Dari but dear Persian is not that old indeed far older then most of the European Langauges. And having the greatest Poets of all time.
 
about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun.
 
dear you must have been mis-informed, yes i know there is a link between Medes and Avestains but not this far to say that Avesta belongs to Parsi or Palvi. they both are western Iranian languages and Pashto is the closest langauge to Avesta. Dear there are many sources out there which you might want to have a look at.
 
 
I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi 
 
That has to be Kurdish cause there is no other langauge alive closest to Palavi other then Kurdish. BTW Kurdish is the oldest langauge in Iran, althought it has a lot of Islamic, Hebrew, Turkish words duo to different religions and believes of Kurdish people, but still older then Parsi.
 
 
  I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
No hard feeling dear, but you need to prove yourself, cause i know there are many prefessors, ethnologist, lingustists, historians who believe Pashtu to be the closest to Avesta (And you what dear the Pashto langauge prove itself to be avestian either anyone agrees or disagree) yes indeed Parsi,Kurdi/Palavi and other iranian langauges were all influnced by Avestian after all it was the Language of Zoroastria. BTW if you read the book you would know that Zoroastria himself says that he's "Pakhtrian"
 
 
 
 


Dude I feel really sorry for you and the source you use for your information. who said zoroaster is so called pakhterian. He and his family are from Land of holy fire Azarabadegan ( today azarbaijan ) and his birth place was near Aras river. later he went to bacteria. Parthian and today tajiks are closest people to bacterians. I should to tell you for last time pashtu language maybe is similar to avestan because it is one of the Iranic languages so it is not new, but pahlavai language and  today persian is more similar to avestan.  I can't understand why you are try hard to claim such things. what is your sources for your claims. I can speak and understand avestan because it is the language that we pray every time. so why are you trying to convince me pashtu language is closest language to avesta. Agian you are wrong about  kurdish language is only close language to pahlavi. in diffrent places in iran you can find some local dialect of persian that is similar to pahlavi for example I know  awrami, sangesari and some local dialects around yazd and kerman in iran are very close to pahlavi too. I speak kermani dialect of old Dari (not Afghani Dari).Smile
 
There is no prove where he was born however he said he's pakhtrian and he spoke the pakhtrian language. Saying that he's from Azerbijan is off the since many of the safivadi book wrote about without any source. AND just to let you know the modern Avesta is not the same as it was 3000 years ago. If you study history of Avesta you would know what i am talking about. Avesta was distroyed by The Great Alexander. So be aware of that.
 
so why are you trying to convince me pashtu language is closest language to avesta
 
Dear I am not talking about the same Avesta that nowdays you can buy for $50.00 But the Old AVESTIAN, the real language of real Avestain is known as "OLD Pakhtrian"  and believe me there is alot of difference between "OLD" MIDDLE and NEW.
 
If you can't connect Avesta with Pashtu, then that's not AVESTA or Pakhtrian is just a lie and that Pakhtrian never existed. LOL we can't say that can WE????
 
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 14:33
Originally posted by kajdom

I don't need to prove anything since I don't claim strange things you do. You need to back up your claims with relaiable sources,
 
I am not claiming anything??? But must modern Historians call Avestian the OLD Pakhtrian and that Avesta is a Eastern Aryanic langauge, not Western like Medians who had some Aryanic and some mixed with Assyrian, armenic etc etc.
 
 
And if you need some sources just tell me regarding What.
 
What part of this you don't understand???
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 18:59
Originally posted by kajdom

Originally posted by Nick

Originally posted by kajdom

@ nick

with respect to pashtuns. your evidence doesn't show that pashtuns are from scythians. scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea. since there is not much known scythian words you can't claim that pashtun language is close or closest one to scythian language. we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that). about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun. I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi and beside I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
Dear Kajdom I have said it before and i well say it  again NOT all Pashtuns are Scythians, Scythains was just a name they were refered to. Scythians are a tribe of Afghans. People think of Pashtuns as an one Ethinic/group/race, its like saying all English speakers are Angels or all the Parsi speakers (Persians) are from one race. No... Pashtu is the language the word Pashtun comes from Pashtuwan with the word "WAN" they mean the language. Pashtuns/Pathan etc etc are just words given to these Afghan people. They have always called themselves "AWghan" and having both the Language, culture, and racial backround of Pashtu you are considered 100% Afghan.
 
But Pashtu over time has been used as National langauge of Many empires like the Zafferides, even today modern Punjabis/Indics of Pakistan (Around 10 million) speak this Pashtu langauge (They are considered Pashtun) since they hav been living in the Afghan region Pashtunistan (Since 1965). If you ever go to Karachi, Pashtu is also spoken there, and what about Pashtu speakers of Iran (Sistan/Khorasan) So Pashtuns are not a single ethinic its just a langauge like Parsi/English/Franch etc etc.
 
DFear Think...Do you Think if i speak Persi, i am going to be a Persian??? NO that's why Persian in not Ethinic and so aren't the Pashtuns.
 
 
scythians lived in a vast area and most likely around caspian sea and north of black sea
 
There is no prove until this day to support this Idea. Even 200 years ago. European knew that Scythains were not natives of that area, they thought Scythains came from Siberia (North EAst Of China). And over time many other theories were present regarding the origions of Scythain, it wasn't until more discoveries found in Afghanistan which was older then the Achaemenid Empire, Assyrian Empire. And to date they never had any Empire until they faced pressure from north West "Achaemenid" Scythians had developed cities like Zarhaj south western Afghanistan bordered with Iran. And more Evidence from the Burned city founded in 2004 the city was dated 3500 years old, signs of Scythians were seen everywhere.
 
And name me any Euopean/Azerbjiani tribe or people bearing the evidence of Scythains? NON and over time even the Greek source mentions Sakazia.
 
we just know that their language was similar to persian language and nothing else ( Greek historian mention that)
 
dear first of all Scythain had no language other then Pakhtrian (Not until they reached Europe 800 BCE second how can Scythain be close to Persian when persian was not even around. Modern Persian is slang mixed Arabic/Samanidi. And the oldest Persian Langauge we have today is from Ferdowsi (Dari)
 
With all all restpact to people who created Parsi/Dari but dear Persian is not that old indeed far older then most of the European Langauges. And having the greatest Poets of all time.
 
about avestan I should to say old persian and pahlavi is closest language to avestan not pashtun.
 
dear you must have been mis-informed, yes i know there is a link between Medes and Avestains but not this far to say that Avesta belongs to Parsi or Palvi. they both are western Iranian languages and Pashto is the closest langauge to Avesta. Dear there are many sources out there which you might want to have a look at.
 
 
I speak one of the old and good preserved Iranian language very similar to pahlavi 
 
That has to be Kurdish cause there is no other langauge alive closest to Palavi other then Kurdish. BTW Kurdish is the oldest langauge in Iran, althought it has a lot of Islamic, Hebrew, Turkish words duo to different religions and believes of Kurdish people, but still older then Parsi.
 
 
  I am zoroastrian and can understand old persian and avestan enough to judge which language is close to avestan.
 
No hard feeling dear, but you need to prove yourself, cause i know there are many prefessors, ethnologist, lingustists, historians who believe Pashtu to be the closest to Avesta (And you what dear the Pashto langauge prove itself to be avestian either anyone agrees or disagree) yes indeed Parsi,Kurdi/Palavi and other iranian langauges were all influnced by Avestian after all it was the Language of Zoroastria. BTW if you read the book you would know that Zoroastria himself says that he's "Pakhtrian"
 
 
 
 


Dude I feel really sorry for you and the source you use for your information. who said zoroaster is so called pakhterian. He and his family are from Land of holy fire Azarabadegan ( today azarbaijan ) and his birth place was near Aras river. later he went to bacteria. Parthian and today tajiks are closest people to bacterians. I should to tell you for last time pashtu language maybe is similar to avestan because it is one of the Iranic languages so it is not new, but pahlavai language and  today persian is more similar to avestan.  I can't understand why you are try hard to claim such things. what is your sources for your claims. I can speak and understand avestan because it is the language that we pray every time. so why are you trying to convince me pashtu language is closest language to avesta. Agian you are wrong about  kurdish language is only close language to pahlavi. in diffrent places in iran you can find some local dialect of persian that is similar to pahlavi for example I know  awrami, sangesari and some local dialects around yazd and kerman in iran are very close to pahlavi too. I speak kermani dialect of old Dari (not Afghani Dari).Smile
 
 
Dear here is another sources from Iran "CAIS" it has some good facts.
 
In case if you are not aware of about eastern or western Aryanic languages. Dear there is nothing wrong with learning new things, as long as it makes sense.
 
 
Red tends to be older althought in decline. And i don't like the way these Iranians colour the Dari as same as Parsi, two reason.
a) Dari is older,
b) Dari has different accent, and its different from western Iranian "Persian"
c) The other reason Dari is older because its close to Avesta or Pashtu.
 
 
So many lingusitics may disagree with Dari as being the same as Iranian Farsi but over all Educated Iranian and historians think Iranians should speak Dari, and Iranians do write in Dari form. 
 
 
Besides Dari should not be western or Eastern since it was made of Palavi (western iranian), Quranic (Arabic) and Avestian (Pashtu/Pakhtrou). Another words its mixed.
 
As you can see Pashtu is also spoken in Khorasan province. However they have forgotten that sistani (South Eastern Iranians also speak Pashtu not Balochi) So the map is a bid of track and notice Ossetic is just place in one region of Europe, it's not true since they were very influncial their peck has reach Scandinavians.
 
 

Iranian Speaking World

 

 

Orange:  Western-Iranian Languages     

    Red:  Eastern-Iranian Languages
 
 
user%20posted%20image
 


Edited by Nick - 08-Feb-2007 at 16:40
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 22:38

Hey Nick bro where did you find your Information?Wacko



Edited by sirius99 - 08-Feb-2007 at 16:10
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 16:42
Originally posted by sirius99

Hey Nick bro where did you find your Information?Wacko

 
I am Sorry boddy, (my bad habit) I don't give the web-address for everything i say.i just mention the sites (look above from Iranian source), i If you want just let me know.


Edited by Nick - 08-Feb-2007 at 16:46
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 17:29
Give me a good source for last map. that sounds very silly. whoever paint this map is uneducated. this map hasn't all Iranian provinces and it is like a guy just used paint program to draw a map.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 17:33
As far as I know in Baluchistan province of Iran we don't have any native pashtu speakers. they are illegal imigrants or refugees that just came to Iran during civil war in afghanistan. Iranian government has some plan to deports or send them back to afghanistan in next years.
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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 20:39
Originally posted by sirius99

Give me a good source for last map. that sounds very silly. whoever paint this map is uneducated. this map hasn't all Iranian provinces and it is like a guy just used paint program to draw a map.
 
Sure this is where i got this map from, http://www.tarjomeh.com/images/map-languages.gif
 
 
 
http://www.tarjomeh.com/index.htm Tarjomeh Localization Ltd as an international Farsi translation provider has a Dutch company as its mother company. They have staff from Iran to Iraq etc etc
 
Sounds silly LOL maybe but they're not bad, they have considered the history of the region.
 
Have you ever asked yourself why does iran calls one of their province as "sistan/Balochistan" its like two provinces right, w'll yes its two province combined. South are the balochis (Western Iranian who came to that Area).
 
Althought the historians have considered Sakastan/sistan to be much bigger but ever since that south area is taken by balochis, it wouldn't be right to count as Sistan.
Here is the map of later Sakastan during sussanian time. Note that Sistani is pashtu not Balochi.
 
BTW When Afghans took over Kandahar, then Kandaharis claimed Sistan as their own. In fact many wars did take place. Anyhow later the Qajers allowed sistanis to go to Afghanistan, Amullah Khan of Afg recorded 39,000, even today if you go to karachi you would find Shepari tribe who claim to be from sistan. In fact sistan is always mention in Afghan tribal songs along with Khorasan. Anyways you get my point.
 
"This was a direct challenge to both Kandahar and Persia since they both claimed Seistan" http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/siege_of_herat08.php
 
And the reason Eastern Khorasanis have been coloured as Green (Dari) is because Eastern Khorasanis were Pashtun at one time, And Pashtuns speak Dari. Not different from Afghans. The Number of native Afghan-Iranian reported by iranian government was always low. During the Shah's time they were numbered as 290,000 but current government count the number as 3000, according to other sources (Iranian Sunnis) the number of Afghans are as high as 3.5 million in Khorasan alone including 2 million Afghan refugees it could reach 5 million. So anyways that's political/religous we're not going there.
 
 
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 21:29

First of all, I don't accept your idea about sistan belong to pashtu speaker and second your idea about khorasani peaple were  pashtu people at one time. it is totaly wrong becuze those area you mentioned were always under farsi speaker domination and pashtu speakers came from multan to central afghanistan around 250-300 years ago. beside one of you afghan users mentioned before that pashtu is not a race but a confedrasion of diffrent etnicities who speak pashtu language.

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  Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 22:04
Originally posted by sirius99

First of all, I don't accept your idea about sistan belong to pashtu speaker and second your idea about khorasani peaple were  pashtu people at one time. it is totaly wrong becuze those area you mentioned were always under farsi speaker domination and pashtu speakers came from multan to central afghanistan around 250-300 years ago. beside one of you afghan users mentioned before that pashtu is not a race but a confedrasion of diffrent etnicities who speak pashtu language.

 
 
beside one of you afghan users mentioned before that pashtu is not a race but a confedrasion of diffrent etnicities who speak pashtu language.
 
 
That may have been me. anyways its true pashtu is a language, and pashtuns are pashtu speakers, (It should be more like Pashtuwan). Just like how we say persian and count persian as an ethnic, but its not really an ethnic, same goes for Pashtu.
now notice i said "Afghan" not pashtun.
 
 
it is totaly wrong becuze those area you mentioned were always under farsi speaker domination
yeah so?? Even right now all of Afghanistan is under and was always under Farsi Domination. In fact Farsi was created in Afghanistan. SO they also speak the DAri "Real FArsi" language (language of Rumi)
 
 
First of all, I don't accept your idea about sistan belong to pashtu speaker and second your idea about khorasani peaple were  pashtu people at one time.
My friend i really can't make you accept anything everyone has their own point of views.
 
I think i already broken the rule by jumbing to different topics, if you want we can discuss this in another section. You might know something that i may not know so we can share ideas, But not in here.
Thanks boddy
 


Edited by Nick - 08-Feb-2007 at 23:25
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  Quote the_oz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 13:52
Originally posted by Nick

Originally posted by EGETRK

sakas were turkic...
 
Egeturk we still havn't found the root of Turks and you think Scythains were Turks????
 
All we know about Turks is their massive expantion during central Asian Massive waves of movement less then 1700 years, and the second Turkish movement known as Mongols, and then 3rd one into modern Turkey and intermarriages with Europeans (And with Native  Aryanics)
 


you still havent found the root of Turks or you didnt want to learn?

root of turks is written here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orhon_inscriptions

sorry for disturbing you white aryanic friendWink


Edited by the_oz - 21-Feb-2007 at 13:54
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 04:34
Hi!
 
The scythians were the iranian nomad tribes who lived north from Persia, and from the territ. of Mezopotamia, in Mezopotamia, in the Pontus steppe, In the Ukranian steppe, in Moldavia, some of them in Walachia and in East-Hungary, from the 9-8 Cent. BC to the 3-1 cent. BC (in different regions in different cent-s, and certenly the people survived the collaps of their tribes and states, and lived after that under other rulers, tribes etc)
 
All the others were nomads , who were living a scythian way of live. They were turcic (not 'turk', taht is the name of the 550's-740's  tribe union leaded by ogus tribes (f.e. turges, on ok etc), paleo siberian, ugrian, bajkalian, mongolian etc. Not scythian originated. Bad english, I know, but I hope it is clear what  I mean.
 
TSZ
 


Edited by Tar Szernd - 22-Feb-2007 at 04:38
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