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Knight
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Posts: 93 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hope God Forgives me......
    Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:06
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Originally posted by Slick

I definitely agree. Socrates was much smarter than Jesus. The power of logic and reason would prevail in the end.


Isn't it a little counter-intuitive to say someone is smarter than an all-knowing being?
 
It depends. If you accept that Jesus is an all-knowing being, then this argument applies. If you are like me, and do not believe in the divinity of the man, however, then it would make sense to say that somebody could defeat him in a debate.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:08
This is what people don't understand. If Jesus is the son of God, as he claimed, then he can hardly lose. However, if he's not the son of God, AS HE CLAIMED, then the basis for all his teachings is gone. His philosophy is hardly relevent, and he can hardly win a debate on the issue.
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Posts: 3335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:10
Originally posted by Zaitsev

This is what people don't understand. If Jesus is the son of God, as he claimed, then he can hardly lose. However, if he's not the son of God, AS HE CLAIMED, then the basis for all his teachings is gone. His philosophy is hardly relevent, and he can hardly win a debate on the issue.
 
Well said. That's why I am still siding with Jesus.
     
   
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Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 23:34
Originally posted by Zaitsev

This is what people don't understand. If Jesus is the son of God, as he claimed, then he can hardly lose. However, if he's not the son of God, AS HE CLAIMED, then the basis for all his teachings is gone. His philosophy is hardly relevent, and he can hardly win a debate on the issue.

As the new testement claims that he claimed. The Quran claims that he claimed that he wasn't the son of God, and that this is a latter invention. As this is entirely a matter of faith, it boils down to the New Testaments claim vs the Qurans claim.

(I'm usually not this picky with people, I just think you deserve it)
Originally posted by Anton

Omar, what muslim traditions says about Isa?

In Islam, Jesus is a messenger of God in exactly the same way Muhammed, Moses, Noah or Ibrahim is. He came to the Israelites to deliver the same message and warning that the other prophets gave. He isn't the son of God, he isn't more important than any other prophet, he wasn't crucified and he isn't responsible for anyone's sins other than his own.
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Posts: 93 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 23:47
Originally posted by Zaitsev

This is what people don't understand. If Jesus is the son of God, as he claimed, then he can hardly lose. However, if he's not the son of God, AS HE CLAIMED, then the basis for all his teachings is gone. His philosophy is hardly relevent, and he can hardly win a debate on the issue.
 
Hence I voted for Socrates. >_>
 
I'm not sure who you're arguing with here...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 23:54
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

As the new testement claims that he claimed. The Quran claims that he claimed that he wasn't the son of God, and that this is a latter invention. As this is entirely a matter of faith, it boils down to the New Testaments claim vs the Qurans claim.


You're quite right, but that leads to another problem. The Christian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus are, for all intents and purposes, completely different people. So you can't just say "Jesus", you would have to specify a belief system.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:56
Originally posted by Spartakus

Debate:Socrates vs Jesus .Who wins?

Socrates convert Jesus to pagan and half of us were paganNuke


Edited by kajdom - 05-Feb-2007 at 05:18
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Posts: 7035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:21
Originally posted by Zaitsev

GCLE, I can see I'm not being clear enough. What I am saying is not that Jesus has to be Christ, but for his point of view to have any validity he has to be Christ.
Are you saying that if Jesus was not Christ, he would not have had a point of view? Of course he would. I pointed out I believe he would have been (indeed was) a Pharisaic Jew, but I'm quite prepared to listen to arguments, particularly on the Pharisaic bit.
 
If he is not Christ, then obviously his whole belief system is fundamentally flawed and is hardly worth debating.
Why - what for instance is the fundamental flaw in Pharisaism? It's just as valid an outlook as Christianity.


My definition is that one who freely surrenders his dignity and his honour is the one who has truely lost.
Well those aren't the rules in the Cambridge Union.
 
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:26
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


As the new testement claims that he claimed. The Quran claims that he claimed that he wasn't the son of God, and that this is a latter invention. As this is entirely a matter of faith, it boils down to the New Testaments claim vs the Qurans claim.
 
Some of Bulgarian Bogomils even doubted His existance.
 
 

Originally posted by Anton

Omar, what muslim traditions says about Isa?

In Islam, Jesus is a messenger of God in exactly the same way Muhammed, Moses, Noah or Ibrahim is. He came to the Israelites to deliver the same message and warning that the other prophets gave. He isn't the son of God, he isn't more important than any other prophet, he wasn't crucified and he isn't responsible for anyone's sins other than his own. [/QUOTE]
 
What exactly did he say?
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Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 20:24
What exactly did he say?

A difficult question to ask without resorting to sarcasim. It is a very broad question.

We don't have any reliable source of sayings of Jesus.
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Posts: 3335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 21:17
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

What exactly did he say?

A difficult question to ask without resorting to sarcasim. It is a very broad question.

We don't have any reliable source of sayings of Jesus.
 
True. What Quran and the Bible says about Jesus is completely different. Jesus was still the same guy. Different people simply described him differently.
     
   
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Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 22:56
*Just a note, the Quran isn't a source of Jesus's sayings, in exactly the same way it isn't a source of Muhammeds sayings. I meant there isn't any equivilent to the Sahih Hadiths for Jesus.
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 06:27

My question was not sarcastic at all.

Just a note, the Quran isn't a source of Jesus's sayings, in exactly the same way it isn't a source of Muhammeds sayings. I meant there isn't any equivilent to the Sahih Hadiths for Jesus.
 
So, where can one find sort of speak "citations" of Isa, Muhammed and other  prophets according to Muslim tradition?
 


Edited by Anton - 06-Feb-2007 at 18:28
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Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 18:27
Muhammeds sayings are called Hadieses (Hadiths), are there are a number of reliable compilations of Hadiths such as Sahih Bukhari, or Sahih Muslim. We don't have sayings from any other prophet, exluding the bible which isn't considered accurate.
Occasionally the Quran uses the words of a previous prophet to get the message across, or retells a dialogue, but I wouldn't class these as sayings.


(and I didn't mean to imply your question was sarcastic)
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Posts: 3335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 20:06

None of the sources are accurate. People simply corrupt the truth until it seems beneficial to them... Oh crap, I will be stoned. Such statement is true, though in terms of religion... there may be exceptions depending on their beliefs...
     
   
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:43
Originally posted by pekau

None of the sources are accurate. People simply corrupt the truth until it seems beneficial to them...

 
That's why it is always better to read all sources before coming into conclusion.  Your chanses to get the truth wil slightly increaseWink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 11:36
May I ask why the Bible isnt' considered accurate, when it has been proven historically accurate again, and again, and again...?
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Posts: 2888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 11:51
Originally posted by Zaitsev

May I ask why the Bible isnt' considered accurate, when it has been proven historically accurate again, and again, and again...?
 
We are talking about Jesus sayings. Not about what he did.


Edited by Anton - 07-Feb-2007 at 11:52
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Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 20:21
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Zaitsev

May I ask why the Bible isnt' considered accurate, when it has been proven historically accurate again, and again, and again...?
 
We are talking about Jesus sayings. Not about what he did.

Muslims don't consider the bible accurate in any sense. To be perfectly honest, the main reason most don't consider it accurate is that God said so. Although for those who do research into the history of the bible, there is alot of evidence to suggest its inaccuracy and general unrealiablity.
- The lack of a direct chain of narration
- The lack of authors identity, and date of authorship
- The whole council of Nicea business
- The existance and inclusion of contradictory gospels

As the bible was compiled in the council of Nicea, the only way to have faith in the bible, is to have faith that the Church fathers at the time were not only acting in the best interests of Christianity/Islam, but that they also had access to reliable information. Both of which is pure speculation. Personally I don't think the bible was ever meant to be 100% accurate, thats why multiple gospels were included, in order to get multiple angles on the same event.

Not to mention its difficult to read, doesn't make sense most of the time, and is a literary nightmare. I gave up after Matthew chapter 10, in which Jesus is supposed to have said that he came not for peace but for the sword, and then goes on to say how he is going to destroy families (10:34). How am I supposed to understand christianity when the bible says things like that? Not only is it contrary to what every christian has ever told me, I don't believe for a second that a messenger of God would say it.

But having said that, the bible isn't necessarily wrong about all things. Its just inaccurate, and unreliable. There are definitely parts of the bible that are correct, and do shed light into the past. Islamic scholars are nearly always familiar with the bible as well.

The existance of part A being accurate, in no way implys that part B is. Largely due to the authorship of the bible. If it was all written by one well known historical character it might, but this isn't the case.
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Posts: 2419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 22:15

In Islam, Jesus is a messenger of God in exactly the same way Muhammed, Moses, Noah or Ibrahim is. He came to the Israelites to deliver the same message and warning that the other prophets gave. He isn't the son of God, he isn't more important than any other prophet, he wasn't crucified and he isn't responsible for anyone's sins other than his own.


Omar, I'm going to bring this up:


``These verses are intended to be a rebuke to the Jews, and particularly to Muhammad's contemporaries in Medina for various acts of unbelief, and they only refer in passing to the story of the crucifixion. Within this context of an attack on the Jews for their opposition towards Muhammad as well as for other acts of unbelief, the reference to the crucifixion does no more than dispute the claim made by the Jews that they had disposed of the Christian Messiah and repudiated his claims to be an apostle of God by crucifying him.

In particular, the phrases 'they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him' do not necessarily mean that there was no crucifixion, but that, even if there was, it was God who was responsible for all that happened during the last hours of the Messiah's life and that the Jews had done whatever they did only by permission of God's will. A similar figure of speech occurs in al-Anfal 8:17 in which the Muslim's actions at the Battle of Badr are attributed to God and not to their own volition; they did in fact and kill, but only by God's permission and direction.

These verses, therefore, do not explicitly deny the Christian story of the crucifixion, for they refer primarily to Jewish claims against the Christians....'' (David Brown, The Cross of the Messiah, SPCK, 1969, pp. 31-32)

And....


Compare the similarity between what the Qur'an say was Jesus' words in Maryam 19:33 with John the Baptist's death in Maryam 19:15:

"Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!" (Sura Maryam 19:15, Pickthall)

"Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (Sura Maryam 19:33, Pickthall)

Interestingly, no Muslim scholar contends that John the Baptist did not die, while they contend that Jesus did not die, despite the almost exact words in the Qur'an.


Source: http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Index/J/jesus.html
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