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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 04-Nov-2013 at 01:31
Some untold info:


PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES


John Seidensticker, Ph.D. Scientist Zoological Park in Washington, D.C:


http://mysite.verizon.net/johnseidensticker/

"Tigers are similar in size to lions, although tigers have shorter legs"

(Weights including all Sub-speices from Biologist)

Tigers weigh less than lions on average (Kitchener and Yamaguchi 2010)
*     Average adult male lion: 175 kg (386 lb)
*     Average adult male tiger: 160 kg (353 lb)

http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger.htm

(Lions 4 foot tall 420 lbs)


(Tigers 3 foot tall 400 lbs)
http://www.google.com/search?q=Focus+are+about+9+feet+long+including+the+tail+and+stand+about+3+feet+tall+at+the+shoulder+and+weigh+400+pounds&tbm=bks&tbo=1

(Size and weights from 40 Year Animal trainer Clyde.B)





The lion is taller than the tiger by 5.5 inches on average (Robert smith)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rmbWriXe1v0C&pg=PT5&dq=the+lion+is+taller++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LE1iUpLpMeK3iwK5p4GADA&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

(Sudipta Mitra)

"The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder"

(Arjan Singh)

"They are low slung to the ground and closer to the true cat than the lion, who compares them in size and weight, he stands taller than the tiger."

Example

-Tigers posture head low to the ground
-Lions posture head held high

Lioness (Nala) is taller than male bengal (Detonater) at Head/Shoulder while the tigers body is lower to the ground:


Male lion (Taller x Mane x Heavier) = Equates = To a 2x larger cat than the bengal tiger in size on average:



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Bert Nelson



Mr. Nelson is the wild-animal trainer of the Hagenbeck-Wallace and orepaugh- Sells Circus...For seventeen years he has been socking lions & tigers on the proboscis... Mr. Nelson tickled the nose of Old Mom, an angry-looking lionessas with the point of a stick and jumped back as Old Mom, snarling enthusiastically, reached out through the cage to claw him" A short time before Mr. Nelson's twenty-four lions and tigers slid lithe-ly into their large central cage, there to snarl and roar and slap sharp- clawed paws at their trainer as he jumped them from pedestal to pedestal. Great Theory" For Some One Else SCARS ARE REMINDER Bert Nelson Also Discredits Belief That Tigers Can Vanquish Lords Of Jungle (Continued /rom Paffe 22) for their little while in the rings and the arena....You never know when one of these babies will go crazy on your hands," said Mr. Nelson. Tigers easier to train, too, he said. Lions Always Beat Tigers "I've seen lots of gang fights between lions and tigers-- we had a me this spring when we opened in Chicago," he asserted...The tiger always attacks the lion by rolling over on his back and going for the throat When he goes for the throat he runs into a mane two or three inches thick and the same mane extends all down ie underside of the lion's body.

~Try To Look Cockeyed Lion In Eye? Not For Mr. Nelson The Sun - Aug 14, 1935
http://www.google.com/search?q=bert+nelson+Tigers+Can+Vanquish+Lords+of+jungle+Lions+Always+Beat+Tigers+mane+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&spell=1&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=DzJzUsGpHMfM2gXUqIHwAw&sa=N


Terrell Jacobs



There is no doubt that the lion reigns as the king of beasts, says Terrell Jacobs of Barnes Brothers circus which opened The lion has a heavy thick mane that protects its throat. An attacking tiger goes for the throat of a foe but cannot bite much except hair when it grabs a lion so the lion has a big advantage...I have seen fights between lions and tigers and have arranged such fights in tarzan pictures and the lion is always the winner. A young lion that has not grown a mane might stand no more than an even chance a tiger but a full-maned lion has all the advantage," said Jacobs

~The Rambler: Evening Independent - Nov 8, 1939
http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

He states a maneless lion stands a even chance:

(Mane-less Nutuered male lion)




Trevor Bale



The hairy mane the lion's throat, preventing the much-speedier tiger from killing the African cat during a battle and giving the lion the reputation of being King.

~Trevor Bale Tells: Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Mar 20, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+hairy+mane+the+lion%27s+throat%2C+preventing+the+much-speedier+tiger+from+tilling+the+African+cat+during+a+battle+and+giving+the+lion+the+reputation+of+being+king+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=w4d0UpbzNefgiAKI1IDgAQ&sa=N


Damoo Dhotre



THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre.

~Lion Picked In Fight: Milwaukee Sentinel - Jul 4, 1970
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dhotre+said+he+would+back+a+lion.+although+the+tiger+is+faster%2C+the+lion+is+at+mane+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=9912UpXMHKGwiQKehIGICw&sa=N


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


INDIA

Nilakanta Sastri Indian Historian M.A & Dravidologist


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger.


~A Comprehensive History of India: The Mauryas & Satavahanas, 325 B.C.-300 A.D Orient Longmans, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search


CHINA


Tocharians



The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.

(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)



It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,

It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,

It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm

“A glourious event in the past”


(Sheeps do not have claws)

The lion was even more savage then the tiger.


~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang ExoticsUniversity of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z7cZ77SqEQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA84&dq=ainceint+lions+the+most+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/show_issue.php?id=199888708122E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art%20and%20Culture&h2=Museums

Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.

~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams



HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN/CHINA

Like the lion, the tiger is a stranger to the Japanese islands, and was usually portrayed in the traditional manner imported from china, via scroll paintings.
~Netsuke: Japanese Life and Legend in Miniature

http://books.google.com/books?id=WWgh3P7OFyUC&pg=PA62&dq=Like+the+lion,+the+tiger+is+a+stranger+to+the+Japanese+islands,+and+was+usually+portrayed+in+the+traditional+manner+imported+from+china,+via+scroll+paintings.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qK1tUs2NG6SQyAGpiYGICw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


Clyde beatty 1951



Beatty said the tiger that was killed was one of his veteran performers and had attacked him years ago, sendinging him to the hospital...She was the whole act, he said,"I loved that cat I wouldn't have taken $10,000 for her" He explained the tiger was a roll over cat....He said he will watch the killer lion very closely from now on...the biggest expense I have is tigers killed by lions he said, They are natrual enimies...that makes the show better, He said lions have killed probably '50' tigers in the years he has been working with the big Jungle cats.

~Beatty Fights Off Lion After Tiger Is Killed Tuscaloosa News Feb 20 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=heA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G00MAAAAIBAJ&pg=6300,3617947&dq=clyde+beatty+he+said+lions+had+killed+prob-ably+tigers+in+the+years+he+was&hl=en


{1949}


Lion kills 1,000 lb tiger

Lion Conquers Tiger NEW BEDFORD: A lion and a tiger battled to the death here. The lion won. When Biller Bros. Circus moved on to its next stop, it left behind the carcass of the loser, a tiger weighing half a ton.

http://www.google.com/search?q=A+lion+and+a+tiger+battled+to+the+death+here.+The+lion+won.+When+Biller+Bros.+Circus+moved+on+to+its+ton++a+tiger+weighing+half+a+ton.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=r1y1UYbFNaS2iwK30oCoDg&sa=N


So far we know that the:

-The lions mane is a big advantage.
-Tigers are quicker in movement and faster but weaker in strikeing.
-Lions are slightly heavier on average, much taller and alot bigger in size due to the mane.
-Tigers are slightly longer and more ferocious/fearful.
-Lions have killed tigers more then vice versa just about 50x; just from Clyde beatty, even recorded killing the heaviest record breaker size/mass tigers as well.
-It seems more people that has worked with (Both) Agree the lion will always win.


Bigbadbrody, thanks for given me the new experts opinions.

Edited by Prime - 04-Nov-2013 at 02:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2013 at 16:28
Follow up:

PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES


PhD Biologist Howard Quiqley

http://www.wcsrussia.org/en-us/aboutus/ouraccomplishments.aspx

"African lions weigh up to 500 pounds; Bengal tigers average about 400 pounds"
http://www.google.com/search?q=Biologist+African+lions+weigh+up+to+500+pounds%3BBengal+tigers+average+about+400+pounds.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=z-l5UpqvMeHFigL2k4GICQ&sa=N

(Historical implication of india)

“Several other feline species infest the Indian jungle, but the lion, largest of all and in the popular fancy regarded as even more powerful than the tiger, has almost ceased to exist on the mainland since the beginning of the present century”
~The Earth and Its Inhabitants, Asia: India and Indo-China By Elisée Reclus
http://books.google.com/books?id=mWI_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=Several+other+feline+species+infest+the+Indian+jungle,+but+the+lion,+largest+of+all+and+in+the+popular+fancy+regarded+as+even+more+powerful+than+the+tiger,+has+almost+ceased+to+exist+on+the+mainland+since+the+beginning+of+the+present+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d7-UUZu2L8i3rgHq7IDACg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Similar Consistantcy's, show that the lion is always the larger cat visually taller and larger in size:

(Example)

Pinder Cirque 2008



Allen King 1935

http://books.google.com/books?id=wt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA552&dq=allen+king++lion+tiger+mane+kill&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1fxkUpG4CsasiQLk6oGgCQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg

Clyde beatty 1935



Height and weight comparison of the smallest sub-species of both existing lion and tigers:

Sumatran tiger:



Height of 2 feet 6 inches on average; Greatest of 3'3 at the shoulder
http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger_summary.htm

weights of 220-310 lbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatran_tiger


Asiatic lion:



3'11 at the shoulder on average; Greatest shoulder height of 4 feet 6 inches
http://books.google.com/books?id=DOQ4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA526&dq=lion++tiger+four++feet+shoulder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vxR6Ur7KOOfJigKK04CgCw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAjgU

Weights of 350-average; 680lbs-max
http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Dave Hoover



Tigers and lions are natrual enimies. Should a tiger leave his seat and jump to the floor, the lions would attack it...They like to be boss, espeacially male lions. Tigers pair off as mates, but the male lion will even kill his own father to take over the pride. And in a tussle, the $500 lion will usually kill the $2000 tiger.
http://www.google.com/search?q=hoover++in+a+tussle%2C+the+%24500+lion+will+usually+kill+the+%242000+tiger.+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=4Ft1Uq2SPMO7jAL0sYGIAw&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=dave+hoover+Tigers+and+lions+are+natural+enemies.+Should+a+tiger+leave+his+seat+and+jump+to+the+floor%2C+the+lions+would+attack+it+kill+his+own+father+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Dave Salmoni



Dave Salmoni, the Animal Planet network’s predator expert, who spent years training big cats; but if the animal has a mission, “it will avoid all of those people and just to go to those three people.” Says Salmoni, “There’s nothing more focused than a tiger who wants to kill something.” The thing is, though, it’s not easy to prompt such enmity: “To get a tiger to want to fight you is pretty hard,” says Salmoni. “Tigers don’t like to fight. They hunt to kill and eat. That’s it.” Unlike lions, which grow up in groups and are used to sparring, tigers are solitary animals, responsible for their own food and survival, Salmoni says. They will take the risk to fight only “if they feel they have to.”
http://www.google.com/search?q=Tigers+don%92t+like+to+fight.+They+hunt+to+kill+and+eat.+That%92s+it.%94+Unlike+lions%2C+which+grow+up+in+groups+and+are+used+to+sparring%2C+tigers+are+solitary+animals%2C+&um=1&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw


Marco Peters



One on one a lion usually whips a tiger..."The tiger is a coward,'' said Peters, 28. He won't take on the strongest lion. You know who he attacks? The little female!'' He gestured toward a cage where two young, daisy-eyed lionesses, lithe sisters, lay languorously side by side, heads turned to gaze at him. The tiger doesn't challenge the big male boss; he fights these beauties, Sheba and Lydia, only 18 months old.'' Peters came to prefer lions when he began working the two species together, a pairing not often seen since Clyde Beatty laid down his chair and whip"


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ENGLAND

King Henry the 3rd:


The Tower of London contained a zoo which housed a menagerie of wild animals, many of which were gifts presented to Henry lll by foreign monarchs Founded by King John in the early thirteeth century, the royal zoo existed for over 600 years. In 1235 the holy Roman emperor, frederick 2, reutedly presented the King with the castles first lions to honor his mirrage to Henrys sister, Isabella, and quite possibly to symbolically agknowledge the power of the King himself. In 1277 Edward the 1st, built the so-called lion tower, a semi circular structure which housed the great cats. Interestingly, in 2005 archaeologists discovered the skulls of three medieval cats, two lions and a leopard, in the moat; the oldest skull has been dated to between 1280 and 1385. In early 2008, scientist from the natrual history museum in london used DNA analysis to determine that two of the skulls were male barbary lions, which came from North africa. Edward's lion tower probably stood along side the moat at this point.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p_S0DVi3vBEC&pg=PA97&dq=lions+were+gifts+king+england&hl=de&sa=X&ei=o5ZtUqX6D8n9iwK7ooHACA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=maQ83GSNQxsC&pg=PA27&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


Gotthold ephraim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthold_Ephraim_Lessing

The lion and the hare both sleep with their eyes open. And thus the former, wearied with the mighty chase, once slept before the entrance of his dreadful den. Then a tiger sprang past, and laughed at his easy slumber. ' The fearless lion,' cries he, ' does he not sleep with open eyes as naturally as the hare?' ' Like the hare ?' roared the lion, leaping up, and he was instantly at the throat of the mocker. The tiger rolled in his own blood, and the conqueror, appeased, laid down again to sleep.
http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA


Edmund Spenser:



Are met at spoiling of some hungry prey,
Both challenge it with equal greediness:
But first the Tiger claws there on did lay;
And therefore loth to loose her right away,
Doth in defence there of full stoutly stond:
To which the Lion strongly doth gainsay,
That she to hunt the beast first took in hond;
And therefore ought it have, wherever she it fond
.

http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

Similar occaison of modern accounts that match the historical writings:



PERSIA/INDIA

"Shows the lion as King of the animal world a position rarely accorded to the tiger"






HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ROME







Similar occaison of the last artifact showing even today the lion will steal the tigers food/kill having more aggresion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ


HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


Lion kills Bullie tiger

(Lucia Zora Trainer of Dan the bengal tiger and Edward the lion)





http://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Lion defeats ambushing tiger

"The question whether or not a lion is the superior of a tiger in battle was recently settled during the course of a circus performance at Turin. The scene occurred while tamer Klose was putting Four lions and four tigers through their daily dozen in the middle ring high-spirited Bengal tiger suddenly attacked the lion and the gang having sounded tamer Kose became referee pluckily standing his ground while he attempted to seperate the struggling beasts...

Round 1 went to the tiger but the second, tan than gave his assailant blow had Signor Carnera been present would have made him look sick. With one stroke the lion had almost torn off one of the Bengal's hind legs meantime the other tigers and lions who were attentive ringsiders the bout began to show...making the tamer-referees position all the more critical Firemen were summoned with earnest pleas to bring along the hose and finally the combatants were subdued by means of violent jets of water Circus vets took care of the wounded tiger and the crowd lustily cheered, the courageous tamer Klose told the local police that he was not going to part with the lion whose Intellirence was well any element of personal risk he him self might be taking."

http://www.google.com/search?q=circus+turin+four+lions+four+tigers+in+themiddle+of+the+ring+the+bout+began+to+show+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


So far we know that:

-Experts, historical artifacts and videos show the lion as more aggresive and that the tiger doesn't like to fight.
-The smallest of lion sub-speices is taller than the tallest sub-species of tigers.
-The lightest of lions out weighs the lightest of tigers on average of 140 lbs; at max over 300 lbs
-The lion in size (because of his mane), is un-rivaled by tigers.
-Even the least aggresive lions can kill the most aggresive tigers.
-Historically, lions have a consistancy of winning more often.





Edited by Prime - 08-Nov-2013 at 17:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2013 at 13:55
When I think, Tiger seems to can defeat a lion. As we see in the poll majority think like this way. On the other hand lion dominance is clear in the historical sources of this topic.

As living in Turkey where was old tiger and lion habitat, we don't have now.

the last lion  was seen in 1880
the last tiger was seen in  1970

but I really don't remember any tiger figure in my history

Hittite Lion and Urartuian chef god with his lion
http://www.sondakika.com/haber-foto/826/antakya-da-2800-yillik-aslan-heykeli-bulundu-3-2878826_300.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Urartu_God_Chaldi.jpg

Lion-Bull fight from West Turkey and East Turkey

Coin of Lydian capital,  the wall of Diyarbakır
 http://www.ancientgoldcoins.com/images/_ancient-Lydia-561BC-lion-bull_web.jpghttp://www.gezimanya.com/uploads/old_files/content/tn/org/634670770790210000634670771067290000.jpg

Even on the top of the mountains there is no tiger
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mneH1TzOlVY/T8YnHgdCbvI/AAAAAAAAAqg/2rSaH6INPXU/s1600/do%C4%9Fu-teras%C4%B1_21aslan.jpg

The great Anatolian goddess, Cybele and her lions
http://journeyingtothegoddess.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/leopardthrone.jpg?w=375&amp;amp;h=525

Hasan Pasha of Algiers, Ottoman grand amiral
http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cezayirligazihasanpasa2.jpg

and  Anıtkabir
http://www.letoonialife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/anitkabir-aslanlar.jpg

one of tiger figure which I can remember from  Byzantine Palace mosaics
http://www.antoninaturizm.com/images/tur_resimleri/arkeoloji_muze_turu_antonina2.jpg

In conclusion;

In Turkey, Lions definately kick the ass of tigers in cultural war



Edited by Ollios - 11-Nov-2013 at 13:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2013 at 19:33
Wow incredible stuff Ollios,

Yeah, Turkey is a place where both co-existed...


Inhabits the sparse forest habitats and riverine corridors west and south of the caspian sea from Turkey, Iran and east through central asia, into the takla Makan desert of xinjiang, china.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger

(The Hycranian tiger, is my favorite tiger sub-speices mainly because I think he has traits and attributes both amur and bengal)


The advent of firearms led to their extinction over large areas. By the late 19th century, lions had been eradicated in Turkey. One of the last sighting of a lion in Iran was in 1941 between Shiraz and Jahrom, Fars Province. In 1944, the corpse of a lioness was found on the banks of Karun river in Iran's Khuzestan Province.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_leo_persica_Nuremberg_Zoo.JPG



Later I will be looking into some historical means of turkeys history with them, I cant at the moment for this computer is limited, it cant type/read in the proper symbols, look into certain sites, not compatiable with alot of more recent soft ware, but It would be awesome to get more info of there wild encounters and conflicts, for they hold the most definite answer of who would win. Altogether, what I have so far is only the basics, its quite little, I havent even covered the wider perspective of there origins since the records wont be in english language yet, they will be via Turkish, Persian, Latin, Indian, Arabian ect...but I'm confident that the lion might take it just because of...

1.)Their extra fighting experince through Social conflicts and competition/moralitys
2.)The anatomy/physiology of having a protection factor the tiger is without and inferior of being shorter in height, has less of a reach advantage.
3.)There Eco & Geo promotes more of a up and up fighter, while tigers would rarely even see another foe due to the denseness of his habitat.
4.)There fighting styles, methods of attack and tactics has the lion better suited for more harder smashing hits, (Haymakers) while tigers faster simultaneous, rapid and weaker clouting of strikes. (Flurrys)

Tigers only fight in two themes of there lives, territory and rights to mate. Lions have both of those more frequent, and a added element no panthera has, they must fight off murading males looking to kill their cubs, along with fighting coalitions of male lions and rival prides, even in their own pride a lion sometimes will kill his brother, uncle or even father to take over in command, lions fight weekly amoungs themselves for rank and food, so altogether lions fight around 10x more then tigers do more fighting leads to more experince = to a better fighter. The artifacts you have shown are awesome, I knew Iran has the lion as there national symbol, so does the Dutch, Arabs, Moguls and most of india before the 1970's.

From either being imported/exported or indegenous... the lion is known through the ages, on almost every continent, while the tiger is isolated being well established to only asia, in healdry; the most iconic, powerful and well respected animals and mythos have been viwed by the G.E.O (A Famous german science magazine) and have documented that big cats (The Black Pictures/Icons) in healdry, the lion surpasses the tiger emensly:




PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES

For now the tiger has the title as the heaviest cat speices at max, while the lion is the heaviest on average, due to over nuetering in captivity, which promotes a faster growth of weight, extending to 800-1,000 pound tigers, the same goes for lions too can reach that weight when nuetured, though a pattern can be exploited, since the largest lion recorded in weight is not nuetured, so the lion compared to a un-nutered tiger could turn the table in being the heavist big cat speices if properly adressed, more will be constructed later and be further examined, since the book that stated the 850 lb wild tiger has a biologist point out his actual weight was 700 lbs, (adjusting food content) since he just ate a large buffalo before being taken, which fits right in at the usual mod of eating 20% of there gorged (solitary) meals while lions weights in the wild are hugely supressed due to sharing of some 10-30 lions at a time over a single kill, all the data on modern lions from biologist use that method of removing the stomach content when weighed, so the same must be implied for tigers, it shines a light showing that the 690 lb lion shot in the wilds of africa and the 680 lb lion in india are roughly the same weight of the 700 lb tiger:


Emperor Jahangir shot one of the largest asiatic lions on record 680 lbs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahangir

http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false

And alot of books are still being with-hold, undiscoverd and has valuable documentations on it about the heavier end,



The weight of the lions was of very great interest in view of the assertion in a recent book (by Martin Johnson) that a lion was shot weighing over 750 lb." Referring to the height of over 4 feet quoted"
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=martin+johnson+750+lb+lion+

Most records of siberian tiger weights from Biologist Mazak: have been disputed, he himself claims under his own studys, that the tigers weights of past hunting records were unreliable, and gave his own consenses, observation and his own studys and concluded the weights of the average Amur is that of near 450 lbs much like wikipedias last statement on the last tiger weight verified of 470 lbs, while the largest only 306 Kg; not 380 kg:


Biologist Vratislav Mazak



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vratislav_Maz%C3%A1k

Again, that would mean the largest sub-speices of tigers is in the same fluctuating ranges of lions...but...that would mean 'Size wise' The lion would appear visually much larger, even asiatic lions would stand much taller.

I'd like to belive there are medium (food content adjusted) of wild 850 lb tigers and lions, but its not that its 'not probable' its just that its not the normal, they would be the exceptions, the most rares't occurances in nature, thats like using a andre the giant as a specimen in the UFC, he is neither complying in the fight world and statistically still can lose to a more seasoned UFC heavy weight fighter who is more well rounded of his species/race capabilitys; at-least in the meaning of 'Prime', the "average size" will more so help define a answer of who would win.

The data on hand emits of lions and tigers (mass x height x mane), is basically the equation and proof that matches the photo evidence on its majority as well, since on average we read that Pathera leo is much heavier, much taller and larger in size, is similar to what we see with our own two eyes, Lions are usually the bigger Filidae on average:

Examples


Frederick Edelstein

The lions mane makes him appear 2x the size of the tiger, while already taller, more robustly build:




Cirque Medrano

The lions mane completely covers the tigers whole appearance, either way; in front or in back the lion would be able to be seen, much larger:




EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION

Harrison & Bobbi



A Permanent house, the Harrisons again plan to live with other big cats. During the show, Harrison explained the intricate social structure of big cats..He said the cats allow humans to be honoraru members of their socity. But humans must respect their rules. Once, Harrison made the mis take of getting too close to the lioness Shanta, the mate of a male lion Java, during a show. Because the female was in heat, Java charged at harrison twice as a threat. You get killed for making a mistake like that, harrison said. Bobbi and I decided to make a quick exit.

Its amazing what you go through to get a lion into a reasonably civil condition, Harrison said. Lions will attack tigers instantly unless taught other wise, as they have been at the park. Even so there were a few battles.

~Milwaukee Journal - Apr 1, 1990
http://www.google.com/search?q=once+harrison+made+the+mistake+of+getting+to+close+to+the+lion+shanta++a+few+battles+lions+will+attack+tigers+instantly+&nfpr=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=P_x9UsmjOKOcjALYuIDwAQ&sa=N


John Cox of Shrine Circus



'The circus is sponsored by Khedive Shrine, so you can congratulate yourself on...John Cox had 12 tigers and, as the centerpiece, a lion, Solomon. Ten huge ones, mostly males with magnificent manes, will arrive with the Hamid- Morton Circus, which opens Thursday in the Kempsville Stadium... In a fight between a tiger and a lion, it would depend on who gets the grab, Cox said. With an even start, the lion probably would win. A tiger, being a hunter, is a natural-born killer.

~Virginian-Pilot - Jun 20, 1990
http://www.google.com/search?q=In+a+fight+between+a+tiger+and+a+lion%2C+it+would+depend+on+who+gets+the+grab%2C+Cox+said.+With+an+even+start%2C+the+lion+probably+would+win.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Fsh2UpqPIYOsjAL5hoGADg&sa=N


Isabel Thomas



its better to read the whole book because it explains fairly well, who has what to bring to the table.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&pg=PA13-IA3&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport&dq=the+lion+wins+lion+vs+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ENGLAND

Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller:

Occupation: German poet, philosopher, historian, and playwright.



The holy Roman empire and Schiller
http://books.google.com/books?id=qD8E6XsDIm8C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=Friedrich+Schiller+holy+roman+empire&source=bl&ots=mDrG1nuZFc&sig=3zvT7c4vO21Jgsg3RIkboS1xujk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mhl-UqHMBKLhiALtioCoDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg

Because his parents wanted Schiller to become a pastor, they had the pastor of the village instruct the boy in Latin and Greek. Pastor Moser was a good teacher, and later Schiller named the cleric in his first play Die RðËuber (The Robbers) after him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Schiller


A Menagerie, in the olden time, was considered an indispensable appendage to regal state. Sauval relates, that from the reign of Charles V. to that of Louis XII., there existed in the Rue Froidmantel, immediately behind the Louvre, a building u ou soulaient estre les lions du roi." When the ancient palace of the kings of France was in part destroyed to make way for the magnificent structure, erected upon its site by Pierre Lescot, and now known as the old Louvre, this vivarium, removed to one of the outer courts, was greatly increased by Francois I., and carefully maintained by his successors. Here, on grand occasions, conflicts took place between the savage occupants of the various cages, and the atrocities of a Roman amphitheatre were, in some degree, revived. Here the inhuman Charles IX., in whose bosom the soul of Nero was lodged, frequently repaired with his favourites to indulge his insatiable appetite for carnage. Here, brilliant crowds assembled; and the courage and devotion of a lover were sometimes severely tested by his mistress, who, dropping her glove into the scene of strife, made its restoration the price of future favours.

An exploit of this description, attended with more than ordinary peril, marked the commencement of Crichton's amour with Marguerite de Valois. A combat of animals had been commanded. Scaffoldings, reared around the court, were graced with the flower and loveliness of the land. A fiercely-contested fight, between the ruler of the forest and the sole disputant of his sway—the striped tiger, had terminated in the defeat of the latter. With mane erect and paw heavily imposed upon the lacerated breast of his antagonist, the kingly brute, still growling with rage, glared defiance at the assemblage; when, amid the hush of silent admiration that succeeded his victory, was heard the light musical laugh of the Queen of Navarre, and the next moment her embroidered kerchief fell at the feet of the slaughtered tiger.

http://books.google.com/books?id=krc8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA487&dq=between+the+ruler+of+the+forest+and+the+sole+disputant+of+his+sway+?+the+striped+tiger,+had+terminated+in+the+defeat+of+the+latter.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0BJ-Uof-I8TXigLAuIDYAw&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA


INDIA



“many familys adopted the title singh to symbolize power and strength… the tiger was never considered as a title in indiaraises the question of predominance of the lion over the tiger"

http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA38&dq=strength+the+tiger+was+never+considered+as+a+title+in+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IWaYUfb5HeWgiALTloCgAQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ENGLAND




RUSSIA




JAPAN




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


INDIA

Zoo Tiger Succumbs

"presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo. a seven year-old lion at 8 on Wednesday last. Leo, who came to the zoo In 1947 and were kept In different cages side by side. Owing. It Is said, to a mistake of the attendant who was on his morning round of washing the cages, the two neighbours happened to meet In the outing yard and been badly mauled by the younger beast, retreated to Its cage which was kept open by the be wildered attendant. Vikram later succumbed to the wounds despite medical help and the 'post mortem' examination revealed that It had died of serious injuries. Including one affecting the thigh bone. Vikram was buried behind the zoo and proud Leo continues In captivity."


Colonel HH Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji, Maharaja Jam Saheb of Nawanagar (1872-1933), ruled 1906-1933.


http://lafayette.org.uk/naw8563.html



"Jam Sahib of Nawanagar has informed me that he has himself witnessed a fight between a lion and a tiger on four occasions, on all of which the lion won."

~Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society
http://www.google.com/search?q=Jam%20sahib%20of%20Nawanagar%20has%20informed%20me%20that%20he%20has%20himself%20witnessed%20a%20fight%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20on%20four%20occasions,%20on%20all%20which%20the%20lion%20won.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1




"One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'


http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


-In the wild heaviest to heavist individually (the record holders), the lion is still larger of the two in size, lacking in mass a few kilos, his taller height & shaggy mane makes him visually the much bigger animal.
-Historically the lion is the more dominant animal then the tiger across a wider vareity of cultures.
-The lion holds more hatred and aggression twards tigers then vice versa.
-The smallest sub-species (Leo. Persica) has been shown on par with the largest of bengals in terms one on one fighting.

And yeah, the poll means just about nothing, it just shows who has the higher fan base, with wiki like sites being the main stem of mis-information, I can see why people would vote for the tiger since it acts as if tigers have a 300 lb advantage, and twist's what experts say, not providing root quotas and not using direct content, john varty didn't say what wiki says, and the 1909 account didnt have the lion named Prince killed by Mogul the tiger. Thats why most of it says (Citation needed) its only safe guarded by kids with multiple alises erasing any content that shows the lions behalf, and playing bias mod by using pro-data.

But thats awesome you know some info on Turkish historical records, maybe I later I can brush up on some my self. I see a huge trend, a consistancy of wins, the historical records show a one sided affair in who is the more superior in terms war, also in size, weight and other statistics favor the lion on average, as for Prime speicmens, of the most elite indivduals, as much as the data emits a win for the lion for now, I can humbly imply a 50/50 is in order until more records for a wider range of cultures can be appointed, reviewed and speculated in order to come into a well educated opinion that has support to solidify.

Thanks for sharing Ollios.

Edited by Prime - 11-Nov-2013 at 20:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2013 at 16:19

Bulgarian Lion defeated Turkish Tiger (First Balkan War)
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2013 at 15:13
Originally posted by Ollios

Bulgarian Lion defeated Turkish Tiger (First Balkan War)



Nice art...

To keep this post short, straight to the point and nice an simple...you can see just how deep the rabbit hole goes in how bias fanatics go to conseal the truth and twist the facts all out of there bias intentions, in other words...Butt hurt'ness:

Everyone knows wiki, right? Well the english version, has no other then the same bias terds that mod the yuku forums and wordpress indragit, as I previously exploited and exposed them a few pages back, I have seen numerous people try and upload credible information that backs the lion (Since there is only pro-data for the tiger) on wiki, yet they get erased and edited off, while their sources have no merits identical to what they provideed claims, in other words; lies. But fans of both (Nutruels) can fret not...since, in other languages it seems wiki has different people from different parts of the world uploading there own findings, check this out...

(English version~Pro-Tiger data)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion

-Erasing anything that favors the lion in its editorials
-Using accounts that isint identical to its content
-Only allowing pro-data and cherry picking
-Twisting facts and manipulating the system with multi alio'ses


(Spanish version~Nutruel-Both data)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C3%B3n_contra_tigre

-Allowing information that supports that both can and has killed the other
-Uses the basics and root sources directly to its content
-Uses a fair assesment.


lol So basically in the english version, you have people from the yuku boards such as Paul, Bigbadbrody, Perault, and pathrap them all with numerous aliases on wiki moderating its content like they do on their forums, since wiki doesn't allow repeats we can see just how small the list really is XD XD, guys like Raja from the indragit wordpress, who instead of up-holding what he says (as stated on the front of his blog) that he will fix any unreliable data, he just banns anyone who dis-agrees and lies constantly using fictional books, novels and B.S data since he cant find any substantial data that would push out a win for the one he chose to back. In this strife, it has a ripple effect which had spawned out over 30 websites that go by flawed, bias, pro-data...cherry picking every statistics like their lives depended on it. lol

Sorry...but thats not happening on my watch, the truth will be told, and the lies will be exploited an the losers who manifest this butt-hurtness is gonna be exposed, no dought about it.

So its no biggie for now, later I'll adress this sickness thats floating around polluting the internet with this grabage of stink lies. As of right now, I'll just sit back and laugh. lol
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2013 at 23:01
PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES

Ph.D Biologist Dale miquelle


http://beta.globaltigerinitiative.org/html/ask-the-experts.php



(^Compliments of Zetaboard member Diane)

Female tigers are at maturity at ages 3 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=UxWZ-OmTqVoC&pg=PA185&dq=a+tiger+reaches+maturity+at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EnG2Ub2aHsXOigKV4IG4AQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Male tigers are adults at 4-5 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZpiXjo6lHkC&pg=PA18&dq=a+tiger+becomes+a+adult++at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bnG2Uc7WG-KpiAL9rICQBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


Captivity weights that matches the Ph.D Biologist studys on tigers mass:


-400 pound siberian-bengal mix tiger
http://gothamist.com/2003/10/06/tiger_tiger.php
-Taiwan 6 year old siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
-Dmitri is one of two adult Amur tigers at the Philadelphia Zoo. He's 13 years old and, at 380 pounds, a tad on the heavy side.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dmitri+is+one+of+two+adult+Amur+tigers+at+the+Philadelphia+Zoo.+He%27s+13+years+old+and%2C+at+380+pounds%2C+a+tad+on+the+heavy+side.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-7 year old siberian tiger named bachuta lost creek animal sanqtuary
-11-year-old male Siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/man-critically-injured-by-tiger-at-bronx-zoo/
-Kunali, a 300-pound, 7-year-old Siberian tiger
http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-10-23/alaska-dentist-performs-root-canal-300-pound-siberian-tiger
-This 300 pound, 20 year old male tiger comes to the Tallahassee
http://www.visittallahassee.com/blog/2013/feb/15/bengal-tigers-tallahassee-museum-until-march-1/


20+% increase of lion mass due too same diets of solitary eating as the tiger:

-A 750-pound African lion named Poncho did the job.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/08/21/Bucs/Sapp_scared_He_was_wh.shtml
-Then a tawny, 600-pound African lion leaped lightly out of his cage
http://www.google.com/search?q=Then+a+tawny%2C+600-pound+African+lion+leaped+lightly+out+of+his+cage+and+ran+along+...+A+merciful+shot+rang+out.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named mufasa
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/080909/news_1834359.shtml   
-A handler was clawed by a 750-pound African lion, a handyman dropped dead
http://www.google.com/search?q=A+handler+was+clawed+by+a+750-pound+African+lion%2C+a+handyman+dropped+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=iXq1UaeMFIa0igKi7YCgDg&sa=N
-Leonard weighed about 750 pounds when he arrived in Boise; a normal lion weighs 350 to 425 pounds
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Leonard+weighed+about+750+pounds+when+he+arrived+in+Boise%3B+a+normal+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Lni1Ue-fCOWYiAKUyoGQAg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named alex, west virginia
http://www.google.com/search?q=animals%2C+including+a+grown+tiger+and+%93Alex%2C%94+a+600-pound+African+lion.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-King leo a 600 pound african lion adopts a red hen 1936
http://www.google.com/search?q=600+pound+african+lion+adopts+a+red+hen++&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Scooter a 600 pound 14 year old african lion
http://www.google.com/search?q=Scooter+a+600+pound+14+year+old++african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Gays lion farm pluto weighs 600 pounds
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1670983352.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar+12%2C+1933&author=&pub=The+Sun+(1837-1985)&desc=The+Lion+Market+is+Dull+just+Now&pqatl=google
-Sells circus 5 lions all weigh over 600 pounds:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sells+Gray%27s+to+battle+five+jungle+bred+african+lions++Each+of+his+savage+pets+weighs+over+600+pounds+and+can+break+the+back+of+a&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Elizabeth marshall thomas




"In contrast, these same tigers--even the biggest and feircest of them all seemed in mortal fear of a certain lion who belonged to another trainer but was sometimes quarted with them. Never did these tigers and his lion get into the ring together, yet the mere presence of the lion in the tiger barn could get the tigers bouncing off the walls of their cages."

http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA


Dr. Antle Bhagavan of Big Cat Rescue



"You gotta have mild-mannered lions and tigers," Antle said. "Normally the lion will kill the tigers. "These are just some of my observations over the last 24 years as I have trained some 400 big cats and met hundreds more. By big cats, I only mean the Panthera family (lions, tigers, leopard, jaguars and hybrids) all the rest are in a different category and the small cats (including cheetah and pumas) are in a different class. "They will kill you, but it is not with the same intent and aggressive behavior. Male lions are 100 times harder to train than tigers.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_Clr5RjvqTpoGGwtFpwLOPN
http://www.rexano.org/ResponsibleOwnership/Husbandry/big_cat_training_Frame.htm


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


AMERICA

{1991}


"Getting bit by a tiger is worse than getting shot or stabbed, because there's so much pressure or force behind it," recalls Clayton Rosaire, who was once bitten on the top of the head while trying to break up a tiger tussle. "It's like getting hit by a car with nails."

Kay Rosaire still bears scars from a live performance in 1991, when a tiger grabbed and dragged her by the hip.

She was saved when a lion intervened and swatted the tiger away.
http://www.yoursarasota.com/section/visit50&cceid=96055&type=VGATTR

{1846}
Lion saves wild beast trainer Herr driesbach from tiger, leopard and bears

~The Rise of the American Circus, 1716-1899 By S. L. Kotar, J. E. Gessler
http://books.google.com/books?id=VoyOa5mIlI8C&pg=PA147&dq=largest+lion+I+ever+seen+maned+circus+cage+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eEBNUs60I-OziQLv-4HYAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw

{1839}
“At Birr, in Ireland, in 1839, when ' a keeper of wild beasts, being within the den, had fallen accidentally upon a tiger, who immediately caught the man by the thigh, in the presence of numerous spectators; but a lion, being in the same compartment, rose up, and seizing the tiger by the neck, compelled it to let go, and the man was saved. Numerous anecdotes of a similar character are recorded both by ancient and modern writers.”

~John Kitto, James Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=0EsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA539&dq=At+Birr,+in+Ireland,+in+1839,+when+'+a+keeper+of+wild+beasts,+being+within+the+den,+had+fallen+accidentally+upon+a+tiger,+who+immediately+caught+the+man+by+the+thigh,+in+the+presence+of+numerous+spectators;+but+a+lion,+being+in+the+same+compartment,+rose+up,+and+seiiing+the+tiger+by+the+neck,+compelled+it+to+let+go,+and+the+man+was+saved.'+Numerous+anecdotes+of+a+similar+character+are+recorded+both+by+ancient+and+modern+writers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L7eUUbSqJcGzyQGU7oCwDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

"1925, Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of 20 lions and 10 tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world






We know that:

-Multiple tigers can be killed by a single lion.
-Lions have beatin back tigers saving humans.
-Tigers on average are even smaller in captivity unless pamperd and spoiled, while captive lions increase in mass and size by 20+% on average.
-Tigers usually fear the male lion more then vice versa.
Be honset to thy self!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2013 at 23:13
Subject of this specific topic covers as states, titled:

Always protect the weaker animal

Starting off this topic, the person that will lead on, will be louis roth statement of always protecting the weaker animal, his personal experince and statements emits, that usually a stronger, superior, better fighter wins, such as people would think the polar bear would win against anything since it is the largest carnivore, that a lion usualy whips a tiger, or a tiger being much bigger and stronger will always kill a leopard, Louis roth states:


"When accidents happen, when strange animals are placed together and a fight starts, always try to protect the weaker animal, regardless of his species. You will hear it said that a tiger can kill a lion, or vice versa. In my experience I have seen all theories exploded. Tigers have killed lions, lions have killed polar bears, a small leopard has killed a large tiger. usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear"

~Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, page 204-205 - Louis Roth


So he is gesturing lions are weaker than polar bears, leopards are weaker than tigers, and tigers are weaker than lions.


PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES




Dr. Roy Aronson. Biographical info. Roy is a veterinary surgeon in a private practice and has had extensive experience with both small animals and wildlife.
http://www.bookart.co.za/books_detail.php?recordID=1

Well credited Vet has seen larged sized lions up to 300 kg (660 lbs)
http://books.google.com/books?id=mNn3mRSIVkEC&pg=PT89&dq=lioness+weighed+pounds&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ONuKUrXjA6OKjAL_o4GIAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


Which matches the large game records of recent catches of 649 lb lions taken by Victor zeni:
http://www.google.com/search?q=victor+zeni+african+lion+world+records%2C&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
http://biggame.iza-yoi.net/bigcat/lion.html


Heights of some captive lions can stand on all fours five feet high:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Caesar+was+captured+wild+in+Africa+and+grew+to+be+possibly+the+larg+est+lion+in+captivity+in+his+prime%2C+standing+five+feet+tall&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Indian biologist and Tiger Specialist Valmik Thapar:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmik_Thapar

"A large male tiger weighs about 200 kilogrammes"
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Dvx6EoLwa4C&pg=PA255&dq=the+secret+life+of+tigers.+A+large+male+tiger+weighs+about+200+kilogrammes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kXuNUr2xB-esigKj0IHgCA&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON EXPERINCE


Prime tiger almost gets killed by old lion, similar to what Louis roth stated, always protect the weaker animal, which is why caroll soo holl shot the lion to protect the tiger:




Dick clemens: Also did his best to protect his tigers from his lions:



Five of the lions and the tigers belonged in my regularact. I obtained the other four lions' last Thursday from the Evansville, Ind. Zoo to train into the act for the annaul Christmas show for crippled shildren in Chicago. NATURAL ENEMIES I introduced the new lions, all two-year-olds, to the old lions as usual. The tigers and lions are natural enemies. Then one of my old lions, Tyrone, got jealous of the new lions. He started to fight with a tiger sitting on a seat above him. MAKE FOR CHUTE The new lions got scared and tried to run for the chute, but the man on the chute was late in opening the door. They couldn't get away from the trouble. There I was in the middle, with the new lions on one side and the old lions and two tigers on the other.

The new lions couldn't get out. Then all hell broke loose. DROPS GUN I began trying to quiet them, to save what I could. I had a small buggy whip and a blank pistol but I dropped the gun. We get scared the same as everybody else would. The fight was a roaring, snarling blitzkrieg. The animals moved so fast my eyes couldn't follow them. I tried to save the tigers, which don't breed here, and are worth $1,000 each.

(PDF Content storyBottom of the page)
http://diglib4.princeton.edu/historic/cgi-bin/historic?a=d&d=MarineCorpsChevron19461122-01.2.82&e=-------en-20--1--txt-IN-police----#


Clyde beatty let out the tigers first so that the lions didnt kill them:



Rightly so, clyde even tried to give away a lion named Prince who made a habit in killing his expensive tigers:

http://www.google.com/search?q=with+Prince+at+the+Shrine+circus+%97+Beatty+tried+to+give+the+lion+away.+the+tiger-+killing+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Falkendorgh:



Before 1,500 people last night , with mogul, a new Bengal tiger, chained to a cage in the ring he turned his back to a lion named Caesar and Caesar jumped at him. Falkendorgh half turned and jumped foward and the big lions claws only ripped down his back and sent him to the gound; but then as women screamed and attendants, firing blank cartridges, ran into the ring, another of he seven big lions, Prince, sprang with a roar from his pedastal straight at Mogul.

Mogul, Snarling and crouching, was ready. The two beast struggled together, biting and striking with their claws. They snarled and roared and filled the air with sawdust as they twisted and strained, each trying to get on top, lashing with their tails. Falkendorgh, swinging his long whip, beat Caeser back to his cage, but Mogul and Prince, striking and biting fought on in spite of the attendants, and several women fainted. many screamed and one was taken with a rift. At last with bars of iron and long whips, they beat Prince off from Mogul and drove him snarling and limping, his flanks streaming blood and his face torn and bitten, to his cage. Mogull, in spite of his chain, had got the best of the fight.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50C1FFC395A12738DDDA00994DF405B898CF1D3


Similar to clyde beatty who let the tigers out first, so did trainer bert nelson:


http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006/01/bert-nelson.html

At that instant, Ceasar pounced from his pedestal, struck the ground and leaped again toward teba. On the second jump nelson raced to the safety gate while Jug head and the rest of his gang roarded down into the fray. In a split second, the entire cage seemed to cave in, in the middle.

Through the bars trainers fired blank cartridges, poked with long sticks and shouted, for ten minutes fur flew and blood flowed. Remember lions and tigers were there in equal numbers. which came out first? The tigers.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=fCgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA40&dq=bert+nelson+lion+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


Alfred Court: too, gave a way a lion to protect himself, his other animals and his tigers.



BEAUTIFUL AMONG THE BEASTS once more, such a good master of school, I reopened the class, or exactly, confined it in the cage a new quota of ignorant big cats.  In the spring following, they were sixteen to deserve to do their beginnings in front of the publishes New York, nine tigers, five lions, two leopards.  To the previous one, there had been five months of daily repetitions, with the habitual procession of incidents, of accidents, of corrections.  "As for me, I was injured to two returns, by the same beast, for a special reason: I was victim of the jealousy of Caesar.  Male lion, fallen in love with a tiger of his sex, Caesar provoked so many scuffles, ridiculous or dangerous, that at the end of the season, I gave it to a ZOO." Of course, I always liked the beasts, but I wanted to see them in liberty, also I resumed the road, pushed by an old dream, the one to visit Yellow Stones National Park, the National Relative of the Yellow Rocks, one of the wonders of the, United States
http://alfred.court.free.fr/lacageauxfauves.htm


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


Just how poor of a fighter is the tiger? No dought he is not the pound for pound best fighter, since he is attributed to be the largest (Pure Opinionated) then the tiger should have never had lost, since his mass/size should have solidified that formality added in with his speen, cunningness and other attributes. So far know that lions have beatin tigers more than vice versa, but just how great is the extent does the expert authoritys opinions upon observation reach? They all protected the tiger because they’ve seen that the tiger is weaker, more afraid and often gets killed and less of a threat than other felidaes in there interspecific conflicts, so just how weak is the tiger as a fighter then? We will have to examine his encounters with other big cats, we shall follow Louis roths statement again to uphold this topic, since he paved the way and stated a small leopard killed a large tiger, heres more of tigers against leopards and weaker animals:


ASIA

10. Leopard cat and Tiger; There is a small animal in southern china, a kind of leopard cat, which is the same size as a cat. It is much weaker in strength than a tiger, but it often attacks a tiger when it sees one. It is as quick as a squirrel and usually lays an ambush in a tree, and suddenly jumps onto the back of the tiger, gets hold of the tigers tail, and uses its sharp paw to force-fully scratch the tigers anus. The tiger jumps and roars from pain, but the tiger is unable to reach the leopard cat. The only solution is for the tiger to roll on the ground, at which time the small animal flees rapidly. This is a great lesson to defeat the strong by the weak.

~ By Jitendra Dhoj Khand
http://books.google.com/books?id=xzmODUiGm7YC&pg=PA273&dq=lion+tiger+fight+account&hl=en&sa=X&ei=34iQUIHyAoXBiwL31oCoCA&ved=0CEsQ6AewCDhk


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ROME


~1874 WILD BEAST FIGHT SCOURGE VATICAN COUNCIL KAULBACH

ASIA




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

Remaining in the theme and title of this post, we will examine the facts in how formidable the tiger really is by showing his records against weaker and smaller animals then himself:


(As previously stated, an adult tigress is already at 4 years old while males 5)


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/tiger-leopard-found-dead-in-mudumalai-tiger-reserve/article1452183.ece


"Tiger killed by leopard in fight in circus arena at Peru"

http://books.google.com/books?id=7k0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA9&dq=Tiger+killed+by+leopard+in+fight+in+circus+arena+at+Peru&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z9uLUpzcE6a5igKkiICYCg&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ


Leopard Kills Tiger

A battle to' the death between a tiger and a leopard in Hie arena of the winter of the Wallace show yester day afternoon that Animal Trainer Garstang was forced

~Meriden Daily Journal - Feb 4, 1908
http://www.google.com/search?q=to%27+the+death+between+a+tiger+and+a+leopard+in+Hie+arena+of+the+winter+of+the+Wallace+show+yester+day+afternoon+that+Animal+Trainer+Garstang+was+forced+lo%A0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=8WaNUqvsIMH-iwKJ6oH4Dw&sa=N


That the black ass which is pictured in the " Imperial Compend" is a bold animal, is shown by the following from a monograph of the Ming period on tigers:

An eunuch possessed a black donkey which he presented to the Emperor ; it was able to travel three hundred and more miles a day, and to fight tigers. His Majesty ordered its courage and strength to be tested. A single kick killed the tiger that was set against him; and by three kicks he killed another, when a lion was mercilessly at once pitted against the brave conqueror, whose spine was broken by the lion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FqNDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=Emperor+black+Donkey+kills+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=84ZXUcX3LuiLjALNpYGIBg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Hybrid Donkey/Zebra Ko’s Large bengal tiger named Rajah…

~George Conklin
http://books.google.com/books?id=FhEbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA878&dq=quagga+kicked+rajah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kohXUfecJOuajAL_5YCwAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


So we know that:

-Lions can be much bigger and heavier than tigers on exceptional occaisons.
-It is known by most who has worked with both, that tigers are weaker than lions.
-The tiger is a good hunter but poor fighter.
-Much smaller animals can kill the tiger.
-History shows that the tiger would be hard pressed to attain a title such as King.
-The tiger can be vastly shorter in height overall.
Be honset to thy self!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2013 at 18:09
Testament of the Wild.


Lets see the definition on the Free dictionary:

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence: The spacious plan of the city is a testament to the foresight of its founders.
2. A statement of belief; a credo: my political testament.
3. Law A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.
4. Testament Bible Either of the two main divisions of the Bible.
5. Archaic A covenant between humans and God.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/testament

Time to dis-credit, exploit and expose the likes of illogical, claims of supporters quoting natrualist that have some of the poors't point of views defying mathematics, science and basic common knowledge, in other words...

LOGIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

The sources we are about to refute, dispute, exploit and expose are not authoritys but just random people who arn't historians with Ph.D's, or M.A's of having a basic education of its historical merits, an knowledge of what the they are talking about, these are mere opinions that the team of yuku seems to constantly repeat as if they hold merits and evidence of some sort of proof that tigers have drove out lions from india.

We'll start with the yuku teams quotas and sources such as:


Ullas kanarth quoting of Kesri/keshari singh~Tiger tales:



http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA118&dq=tigers++out+of+lions++responsible++india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ho-NUqitPKepiALE3oGYAw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


Starting with the facts, that lions live in Prides, and tigers are solitary:


Besides rejoicing a substantial rise in number of lions to 411 in Gujarat's Gir National Park, what has attracted attention of experts is the unique behavioural pattern being displayed by two male lions who now rule the biggest ever pride comprising 32 felines. "The Gir forest is well known universally.

This is the kingdom of lions (Panthera Leo Persica), who are also called as Asiatic Lions. There is an increase in the lion population in the Gir forest. Today, more than 411 lions roam the sanctuary," Dr Sandeep Kumar, Deputy Conservator of Forest (DCF) told PTI. The officials attribute the rise in population to the factors like better protection and other facilities, including availability of abundant prey for the big cats, availability of water and overall improvement in the lion habitat in the area.

"A group of lions having two adult males and several females with their cubs is called as a pride. Here, two males together guard a territory comprising sub-territories of female lions that is called as a sub-group. A sub-group is typically formed by 1 to 3 adult females, their cubs and sub-adults. Adult males regularly visit these sub-groups and father the most of the cubs," said Kumar. He further said two male adult lions are ruling 150 sq km of territory and display dispersal behaviour thus not allowing the sub-adults to feed, mingle with each other and even not let them come in vicinity of the pride. "This (Gir) forest range is ruled by two male lions known as "Kamleshwar males". They have established their territory in this area in 2005 and till date are maintaining, protecting and breeding in it," Kumar said.

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/two-kings-of-forest-who-rule-the-biggest-pride-in-gir-park/943236.htm


Kesri singh a tiger hunter of gwailor, must have missed that mathematically 2 is greater than 1, cant see how he misseed that one, inverse 32 is greater then a band of 4 (the max recorded of tiger unity); since we have covered previously that asiatic lions can rival bengal tigers in weight and be larger in exceptional occaisons, 2 on 1 would be too much.

Sticking to facts, there is tangible proof, this is a replication of what out-numbering leads to:

Eight Lions Kill Pair of Tigers in German Zoo:

(Frankfurt zoo)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden

"Eight lions fought and killed a pair of tigers in Frankfurt's zoo early today after someone had failed to lock the gate between the animals' cages. The one sided battle started when a lioness which recently gave birth to cubs led four adult and three young lions into the tigers' cage. The tigers retreated into a corner before being forced to fight for their lives.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Inductive reasoning tells us, Man are responsible for the huge decline of lions in india, no animal was prized more, they are the ultimate test and a right of passage, from your average native all the way to royalty using of mass producted fire-arms:

Shah jahan, shooting lions:




Common knowledge tells us...In the wild, a group of lionesses killing a single tiger would be consider'd the norm baided by mathematics 8>2, the lioness from frankfurt zoo just did what any mother lion would have done, went to extremes and lead her pride to kill any near by threats to her cubs, (exactly what would happen in the wild)... as shown lions can have much more in a single pride. One on ones are of the ubmost rares't, yet we have numerous times lone lions out-gamed the bengal possibly the largest current wild tiger alive behind the amur, Tigers would have to slink through lion country unseen, quitely, hidden in the jungle thickets, and he still would run a risk of being seen and opprehended since lions are very territorial; logic, mathematics, science and common sense would gesture lions would walk all up and down tiger country without a care in the world knowing their spartan unity would grant them a victory against any predatorial odds:





Same type of poor opinion which the tiger fans of yuku holds as facts:

~C.A Kincaid
http://books.google.com/books?id=jwfHn-eHZtkC&pg=PT29&dq=tigers+drove+lions+out+of+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LpSNUve_DIiEiwLcuoDoBQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

It seems 99% likely, this person has no knowledge on lions social structure, no knowledge on how many times a asiatic lion has already bested, defeated and killed a bengal tiger one on one, he is no authority, has no credentials, in the scietifical community this information with no evidence would be considered a...joke... its scholar fact that tigers inhabited India first, hmm he must have missed that one before his poor rant.


The reason lions numbers reached near extinction, is because of guns and the everlasting need for man to be the most dominant terrestrial of killing the strongest opposing forces:




In the dry parts of Western India, the lion rather than the tiger was the main target of the hunt:

http://www.google.com/search?q=In+the+dry+parts+of+Western+India%2C+the+lion+rather+than+the+tiger+was+the+main+target+of+the+hunt+and+the+ability+to+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=YyuMUumvNYHQiwKb9oHwAg&sa=N


Lions disappearing in india has nothing to do with tigers, since one would need hundreds upoun thousand, of occaisons single tigers dispatching whole prides, coalitions or even lone lions, not to mention the cubs unlike the tigers are safe guarded around the clock, the source wants people to belive that a single tiger can stand a chance of winning out when encountering the head hunters (coalitions of male lions) who guard, patrol and kill off any predatorial threats:




Not even that amount is needed, the tiger cannot thrive when lionesses are the share holders of the Pride. Who always reside in large groups, so a tigress who has to raise her cubs all on her own...(the male tiger abondins the female and his off-spring), how can she manage to provide food, let alone protection for her cubs if a group of lionesses are on the prowl, we are talking about at-least 5-10 lionesses, history shows it takes just two to pull off a 99% victory in a confined area:


Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress:



One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'


http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


The lions fastidiousness pace of fighting constantly would be way to much for a tiger to manage, since tigers dont fight as often they dont even encounter tigers as frequent, they remain hidden half the time in thick dense jungle, they will have to deal with a constant amount of encounters which would lead to a life style he is not accustomed to, and cant manage the odds of multiple lions at a time, lions are the closes't things to humans in the cat world, they are social x war-like, a constant need for claiming dominance over everything and anything, tigers are not known for roaring as lions do, they call out to their mates an off-springs with chufts and moans, while lions do the same, they are more known for issuing challanges and pro-claiming ownership of land through the mighteist roar there is:



Which leads to what? Even more confrontations, a tiger wont venture near a region where there are multiple roars, but Craig packer (lion specialist) states lions are that crazy and excepts those odds under his own observation and unique testing, using large speakers to imitate rival lions, lone monarchs of a pride will move toward the challange, this is why the lion has more valour than any other predator:
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/10/lion-warfare-majingilane-vs-new-males/




More Disputing include:

http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+is+said+that+the+tiger+is+the+more+powerful+and+aggressive+beast%2C+and+that+he+simply+drove+the+lion+out+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=NZ2NUok4q5mMAoDsgdAF&sa=N

Yet no merits, no proof and evidence of accounts and occaisons whole sale lions have been found losing in vast quanitys to tigers, they dont even have individual cases of wild lions losing to tigers in the wilderness, heres another example of how (Unity) would have lions prevail every-single time, and these wern't even full grown lions:


{2011}

Two juvi male lions chased around an harrased a adult tiger, until he collapsed from exaustion:



He tried despertaly to protect himself:



But the two young brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moans in agony, after on lookers shouted for the lions to stop, shortly after one got a hold of his throat:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk


Exsessive hunting, to braging of there superiorty over the mighties't forest and jungle monarch, the title King of beast, was the reason why lions were more targeted than tigers, although just as formidable one on one, the title was given from both indians and british to lions as the heirarcy, so inverse people want to shoot the best, the highest, the more famed to personafie their own titles:


http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1600_1699/jahangir/hunting/hunting.html


Natrually, on natures accord, a tiger would commit suicide if he ventured into lion country the numbers mathemtically just dont add up:




Back to Kesri/keshari singhs quota thats used multiple times of:

"It was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied"
http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+was+more+cunning+and+more+powerful+then+the+lion+therefore+it+killed+or+drove+offf+or++away+from+the+areas+it+occupie&tbm=bks&tbo=1

You would think some of these native to indias home lands would be logical, mathematical, and reasonable upon the simples't things, but no. Tigers hide out in the jungle, they use thick vegatation to remain hidden, while lions are proud beast that fears no predatorial animal in their full capacity of their pride, so out in the open is where they remain, it is evident in the abundentcy of photos we see both in, by looking at the geography, what would be easier to shoot even if the lion was roaming alone:


Lions open grounds:



Tigers thick dense jungle:



You can barely even see the tiger when he's right in front of you, which his stripes blends into the thick vegataion of jungle surroundings, yet the lion is spoted so easy because he chooses to live in the open, look at the lion picture again, you still would be able to see the lion even if he was far past the trees miles away, while the tiger would lose a hunter in the jungle for less then a few yards worth.


Common-----Sense



It would be hard pressed for a hunter to shoot a tiger, since he would have to trek through miles of thick bush and jungle, he could possibly stray pass hundreds of unseen'd tigers who wish to remain un-seen through trees, bushes, caves and chasims of jungle teritory, while for lions you can spot a whole pride from miles away and kill them with ease if you have a gun, spear and or group on a elephant or jeep, being in general they are more accustomed in the open and wont run. For the amount of time it takes to find one either or, to killing them there and then, you could kill hundreds of lions for every one tiger. This is why lions almost have gone extinct in india by the british, indians and others who were there to gain their fame and glory of killing earths champion of predators...not individual tigers who can barley hold his ground with a single lioness.

Kesri even states his own consenses and eludes a verdict upon a deceptive concept, he also stated that the lion is the braver of the two, the more willing to stick around to finish the fight, but then trys to pull in a win for the tiger by saying under his own observation, he's seen, 3 occaisons tigers beat lions (which he set up):



Hah? So he counts a win, as if a tiger lashing out (trying to defend himself) is suppose to equate to a tiger killing multiple lions? Sounds like he was just trying to rival what Jam saheb said, that on four occaisons lions won, who knows they were probably killed, unlike Singhs, we know for a fact his wern't killed, they were just minor disputes. It throws into question how inconsistant his opinions are, since how can one have all 4 win, and the other all win as well? The statement, content and substance emits that it wasn't even a fight, with all the video proof we have now days, its exactly like:

1.) The Big Cage movie (Clyde beatty) the tiger running all the time while trying to defend himself.

2.) Roar the movie (Tippi hedren) lions chased a tiger up a stump and the tiger lashed out and did nothing.

3.) Everland park wild life show (Korea) countless of tigers weak swipe, miss, tire themselves out then get dominated with earth shattering slams from the lion.

4.) Gir forest video (Castle films) the tiger swipes leads to exauhsting itself out and the tiger collapsed.

5.) Jungle jim movie  the lion chases and harasses the tiger through out the whole fight, while the tiger throws senseless swipes that adds up to nothing.


All have a similar trend, a consistancy of substance and content...these are all bouts that protain to one on ones, yet in the wild it will eventually have tigers facing huge odds of multiple lions, yet we have people who actually have more self observation an experince than singh (a zoo keeper and hunter), ullas who quoted him (student level scientist) and the unknowns who claims tigers drove out lions from india, we have native indian experts sources and quotas from:

-Damoo dhotre (Trainer/Tamer)
-Kailash sahnkala (Zoologist/Natrualist)
-Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji Maharaha Jam saheb (eye witness to 4 occaisons)
-Nilakanta. (M.A Historian)
-Shah jahan (eye witness)
-A Maharaja prince of india (Eye witness on 1 account)
-The Ballou indian magazine (documented 4 occaisons)
-Jamnagar zoo (1 account)
-German zoologist (wild account in velar india)
-The Gir forest fight by castle films (3 vs 3)
-Calcutta zoo (2 accounts)
-Agartala zoo (1 account)
-The Anwar i suhali (historical artifacts)
-Ramayana and Mahabharata (historical records)
-Nandan Kanan animal park' (1 account)
-Bhim Singh (eye witness)
-Sujit Mukherjee (Natrualist indias history)


All which has had the asiatic lion either hold his ground or defeat and kill the benagl tiger either in indias captivity, pit-fights or indias wilderness...So where in their minds do they think a socioty of lions who are in small through large groups are gonna be killed off and or drove off from individual tigers, who are only slightly heavier on average by not even 60 lbs, yet asiatic lions can rival and sometimes exceptionals exceed (680 lbs) the common bengals weight (420 lbs), yet the tiger is shorter in height, has less fighting experince then the lion, a inferior fighting tactics of weaker flurrys, less willing and less aggresive to be the usual finisher twards formidable foes as we covered tigers lose to leopards and donkeys, who lions in the same occaison had won, they would need hundreds of upon thousands of occaisions (on hand) to show right off the back, (death accounts) that tigers are responsible of killing or driving out lions from india, they dont...all the records combined of tigers killing lions through out all of history is less then 20 in chronological order, not even 1 in the wild where the lions were raised through out the wilderness of india...and the list consist of majority of the accounts being male tigers killing female lions and lion cubs/juvis, while the male lions that lost has 99% of them in bad condition, two on ones, captive vs wild, amsbush, teeth and claws blunted and decayed, distracted and helped by trainers. Its almost pathetic how little the yuku team has when viewed in chronological order and catagorie form, after all we are looking at only 1 fairly fought fight where the tiger has killed a male lion? One occaison doesnt speak of a entire speices capabilitys and statistics, espeacially when the opposing factors has the lion came off the victor in more than a 100 documented cases.


People who actually know a thing or two on subject are entirely different, people with actual knowledge of lions and tigers from Biblical records, Historical natrual resources, Direct observations through owning and trainging them, and even Phsycological implications of there social interactions through eco and geo, of lions and tigers, know that the lions unity would spell death for any sub-speices of tiger, no matter how small or big, powerful or cunning, he will fall to the superiorty of the lions spartan prowess:



~Professor of philosophy at the Graduate School of Core Ethics and Frontier Sciences, Ritsumeikan University, Kyoto
http://ineteconomics.org/conference/hongkong/paul-dumouchel

“Quite frequently, we are treated to the following anecdote, about the lives of certain animals in captivity. It is said that if lions and tigers are put in the same cage, the lions progressively elimenates all the tigers even though individual tigers are much stronger and more powerful than individual lions. The reason  for this is when a lion and a tiger come in to conflict, all the lions in the cage come to the aid of their fellow, where as the other tigers yawn and scratch themselves as the fight goes on. A tiger reacts only when directly threatened. Lions on the contuary act as if all the lions in the cage were targeted by what effects anyone of them.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=pgjHAeho0P0C&pg=PA4&dq=struggle+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqqAUc_5B4idiALm5oCYBA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


So it is clear that even if you have a individual tiger more powerful than a individual lion, meaning if the tiger is older, larger in size and more heavier... smaller and younger lions can still kill a much bigger and older tiger, because they work as a single impenetrable unit, as the spartans did, and as the historical accounts has proven.


Heres more solid proof that Unity...will be the main factor in disputing any that says the lion was droven out of india by individual tigers:


{2006}

Liberec (Czech pronunciation: German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Kozákov Ridge: lions kill siberian white tigress in leberic czech zoo.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm


Yuku is infamous for consealing the whole truth, they only show one part, yet leave out the things that aid the lions behalf, heres a book that they constantly quote, yet leaves out the essentials upon the specific topic:

Five lions will defeat five tigers because the lions fight as a team and the tigers do not. The five lions take on one tiger at a time the Romans with legendary strength in organization and coordination, were the lions in a lengthy series of battles against a specific tribes
http://www.google.com/search?q=Five+lions+will+defeat+five+tigers+because+the+lions+fight+as+a+team+and+the+tigers+do+not.+The+five+lions+take+on+one+tiger+at+a+time+the+romans+with+legendary+strength+in+organization+and+coordination&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Ill-fated Greece! by hands like these to fall!
To bear, from age to age, such heartless thrall!
To drop from thy proud pinnacle of fame,
And live—with nothing left thee but a name.
Hadst thou been faithful to thyself, thy pride
Not thus had perish'd, nor thy glories died:
Had thy proud sons united in their aim,
Thy jarring states made friend and foe the same,
The unletter'd hordes who sunk thee to a slave,
Had only reach'd (hy fields to find a grave.

Alas! thine iron phalanx discord broke,—
Thy jealousies prepar'd for thee the yoke—
So the strong herd of Elephants that rove
In friendly bands through India's sultry grove,
United scorn the wary hunter's spear,
Who marks the prize, but dares not venture near;
But when dispers'd, alone they tread the wood,
Each falls a victim, weltering in his blood.
E'en on those waves that round the city flow,
Thy sons in battle sought each other's woe:



Athenian heroes fought with Spartan there,
For ocean's empire, and both reap'd despair
So, while two tigers struggle for a prey,
The mightier lion bears the spoil away.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zP0EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=Byzantine+tigers+lions+fights&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H5mBUoisJ4eniAKBjYG4Aw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBQ


So from romans all the way to the greeks, it was the same embodyment of unity, both people of greece/rome have studyed the lions combat in the arena and have adapted, transformed themselves and replicated the lions superior fighting ways to win:



There are no packs between lionsand men
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM


WE ARE LIONS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tFW-Oiyf0


{1973}

Two lion cubs eat tiger:

A state of emergency was declared in Alexandria after a young circus tiger vanished from its cage, Newspapers reported that the tigers remains were found several hours later in the cage of two lion cubs.

http://www.google.com/search?q=+in+Alexandria+after+a+young+circus+tiger+vanished+from+its+cage.+Newspapers+reported+the+tiger%27s+remains+were+found+&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



And yet...another, which from yuku only nip-tucks and conseal's the whole abstract leaving out facts:

In a brouhaha involving a dozen of each the result will be several dead tigers, as the lions proceed in a pack from one to the next, while the surviving tigers quietly observe. Only the trainer weeps at the result, because tigers, who are so nervous...
http://www.google.com/search?q=+a+dozen+of+each+the+result+will+be+several+dead+tigers%2C+as+the+lions+proceed+in+a+pack+from+one+to+the+next+Only+the+trainer+weeps+at+the+result%2C+because+who+are+nervous+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


More Tangible proof of the Phalanx

{1957}

3 lions kills tiger
http://www.google.com/search?q=Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+BIRMINGHAM+A+tiger+that-+was+attacked+by+three+lions+died+of+its+wounds+yesterday&safe=off&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=odBrUfmlBKaP2gXoroDgCA&sa=N&btnG=Search


A SINGLE IMPENATRABLE UNIT

King leonidus:

Your father should have taught you how our Phalanx works. We fight...as a single, impenetrable unit.

That is the source of our strength.

Each Spartan protects the man to his left...from thigh to neck with his shield. A single weak spot and the phalanx shatters.






And another, if somehow it needs to be told multiple times from multiple sources to some individuals like the yuku team who actually quoted this exact book, but left this part out:

But the indian guide says: In the real world if they were some-how in the same range, there is no dought that lions would gain the predatory ninche. The tiger is mostly a solitary animal, and a lion hunts in prides. There is no dought that lions would drive tigers from the ninche at the top of the food chain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-yA2qKGfqocC&pg=PA91&dq=lion+tiger+fight+advantage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bsJTUtnbGumSiAKBtoGoCQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ


{1947}
Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger named toona 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


More disputing... that has no base evidence, no acounts, no historians:

Jack Denton Scott, "Speaking Wildly", William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 "Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India, …" (p. 256)


Even in the art alone they show what the scenario would look like, multiple lions on a single tiger, we all know from the historical records what happens as the outcome:

India~Lions 2 v 1= Outcome? As above an bottom gestures, run or die:




We know that:

-Lions out-number tigers in the wild
-There is an abundencty of tangible proof that disputes (Opinions)
-Lions have a sense of brother hood in fighting even without family relations.
-Some of the greatest warriors to walk the earth has learned their superior fighting ways from the lion.
-Lions in india were hunted to near extinction by man.
-There isn't a single occaison of a tiger killing a wild lion in the wilderness yet.
-Most native authoritys with credentials in india belive even a single asiatic lion is more than a match for a bengal tiger.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2013 at 23:57
Jackjacksonj The Biggest liar on the Planet



Lets expose this fraud. There is no need to source the definition of a repeat, a repeat is just a occaison being...reused, stated again, but why? I really dont know, mistakes can be made, but how many times can one accidently mistakenly repeat something? Once or twice, three times tops? That can happen, but what we have here isn't a repeating accident, this is deliberate, this is intentional, in means of decpetion, the only reason I can phantom is, well...he went through every possible web site that holds information on the subject such as...

-Google books
-Newspaper archives
-Google news
-Blogs
-Forums
-Videos and other sources

And seen that majority of all the sites, locations and internet resources emits, shows and provides information in vast quanitys that the lion has won more, more experts favor the lion, more historians accounted lions dominated tigers, tigers are not as big as some lucrative sources pro-claim, that all biologist, ecologist and natraulist atleast those who have credentials have the statistics that panthera tigris is smaller, weaker, less formidable and will lose more often on average terms to panthera leo. So...he repeated occaisons with cut and paste's so you cant read its full content, and then mixe them along the lines by using different sources who speak of the same oaccount but through hear say or borrowing another sources quotas and putting their own opinion on it. Lets see how many times he so called "Accidently" repeated things:



So what does Charles Darwin, Samuel Haughton, Charles Jamrach and Martial peters all have in common? Oh yeah they all are intwined and connected and these two are just talking about it, quotes it and gets what they can make out of it:

Charles Darwin:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

Darwin mentioning the fight in:

Edmonds menagerie-->Bromwich--->Which is near ratccliff high way, Englan Birmingham:
http://www.google.com/search?q=darwin+of+a+tiger+which+broke+into+the+cage+of+a+lion+at+Bromwich%2C&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Samuel haughton:


http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/zoologytrevelyans-rhinoceros-and-other-gifts-from-india-to-dublin-zoo/

Haughtons words, of the lion is humbug, mentions edmonds menagerie, the percent and martial:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MbdXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=the+tiger+if+in+good+condition+invariably+kills+the+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sG2QUo-iEcXToASg0IDAAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


They are just quoteing, citing, and getting what they can out of these two guys incidents:

Charles Jamrach:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Jamrach

Info on the Male bengal name nana sahib
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WDT19021229.2.28

Thats why on all the other accounts (the citers) people going by hear say called, the tiger a tigress (Female) ignorance and miss info, where they changed nana to Nina which now sounds like a girls name. Yet even they’re details are of hear say since it doesn’t match the original (before their mis-info) came out.

and look, heres the info that exposed Rajah from indragit, look…it’s the black jaguar hat nanasahib, the male bengal tiger killed:
http://www.lookandlearn.com/if?search=Charles+Jamrach&bool=phrase


and…

Marcus Valerius Martialis:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial

"Lambere securi dextram consueta magistri
Tigris ab Hyrcano gloria rara jugo
Steva ferum rabida laceravit dente leonem:
Res nova, non ullis cognita temporibus.
Ausa est tale nihil, svlvis dum vixit in altis,
Postquam inter nos est, plus feritatis habet."

http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost01/Martialis/mar_spec.html

Translated by Anon…

OV THl PimiJO 8H0W8. 18

The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He
durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty


Notice it says “His” and “tiger” again this goes to discredit and dispute majority of the english people who cited it, since Tigris in latin means tiger, they thought tigris ment tigress (female)…this is why historians should be the only people that are cited, since ether they miss-interperted, mis-informed and or tried to re-write history, it mentions only one occaison, and even more so the editorials said martial mentioned that the tiger always won, the tiger invariably won, the lion always lost, pure lies since in that translation it mentions of only one occaison, either they assumed others cases would be similar or they just were bias and put their own spin on it, we know that either or is taken into account, since martial said it was “Not known before" (A tiger never won before that incident).


This would mean that all of these sources are connected to two accounts, lets count just how many times he uses books that merely quote these four people: Time for some serious exploiting, open up two windows, one that has his site here:
http://www.freewebs.com/jackjacksonj/tigervslionaccounts.htm

And one with this page we are on right now, and we will match, exploit and expose all the times he repeated Martial and Jamrach, which as you can see, even reading his own content you would have seen those two names right on its text or pic which he cut and pasted to conseal the whole thing:

Lets Read:


4.) 60 lions where killed by tigers, so this Is equal to 60 accounts


64.) “In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”

82.)


81.)


84.)


88.)


89.) “ The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful; in every case of a fight between the two in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent.” (Referring to the Asiatic lion) (pg. 212) - Big Game Shooting by Clive Phillipps- Wolley

90.)


92.) “When the ancient Romans set tiger against lion in the Coliseum, the tiger invariably won…” - The Living Edens
93.) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.
c1957 Tiger kills a lion in a circus --Guiness book of records
-Guiness book of records

93.) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.

101.) In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”

102.) 1900 Trainers account mentions tiger attacking male lion and killing him quickly --Guiness book of records

123.)


126.) The Book of Animal Facts and Feats suggest that records of the Roman arena reveal that tigers normally beat lions in fights.

127.) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times

128.) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times

129.) Tiger kills male lion by find other avenues besides the throat bite to kill his oppoent.
-The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin

131.)  


132.)


133.)


134.)


135.)


138.) "The tiger always defeated the lion in ancient rome. It always won" - The book, The Roman times.

140.)


143.)


144.)


150.)


203.) The Windsor Magazine - Page 20. 1896.
“most naturalists are agreed that the average lion is no match for the average tiger, being not only generally smaller but much slower and more clumsy in his movements”

204.) The Journal of Science, and Annals of Astronomy, Biology, Geology … - Page 399
by James Samuelson, William Crookes - Science - 1871
The lecturer added that he was sorry to upset the superstitions of childhood, but the tiger is a much more powerful animal than the lion, and will always beat the latter. The lion had a great mane and looked big”

206.)

1.     Reference: Martial De Spectaculis 21
While the trainers of the rhinoceros may have trembled in fear at the fate that awaited them if their animal failed to perform, and another trainer was savaged by his lion,[24] some were more successful. One trainer was noted for his tigress which, though tame enough to lick his hand, had torn a lion to pieces, “a novelty unknown in any times”

208.) Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal, Exhibiting a View of the Progressive Discoveries and Improvements in the Sciences and the Arts - Page 57:
In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots.

210.) The Eclectic Magazine - Page 547. by John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell - 1844
“Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim ; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on…”

213.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21. by Arthur Nicols - 1885
“To this may be added the testimony of Martial, from actual observation of the contests in the arenas, where the tigers always killed their antagonists”

214.)

1.     Nature - Page 495. by Norman Lockyer, Nature Publishing Group - Science - 1875
“Martial also states that the tigers always killed the lions in the amphitheatre. The lion is, in truth, a pretentious humbug, and owes his reputation to his imposing mane”

217.) Chicago Daily Tribune - Apr 22, 1882. A TIGER KILLS A LION.
Exciting Scenes Incidental to Moving a Menagerie. Chicago Daily Tribune

221.) The Dublin university magazine - Page 409. by University magazine, Dublin city, univ - 1877
“He mentions a case in which a tiger in a menagerie burst through the partition of his den into a lion’s, and in a few minutes killed him.”

222.) The Illustrated Natural History - Page 162. by John George Wood - Natural history - 1865
“The same Tiger is also celebrated for his battle with a lion, resulting in the death of the latter. The two creatures had been put into one large cage, or box, which was divided by a partition in the centre, so as to separate the two animals. While the attendants were” at their breakfast, the Tiger battered down the too frail barrier, and leaping into the lion’s chamber, entered into fierce combat. Not even the keepers dared interfere to stop the battle, which raged until it was terminated by the slaughter of the lion. The poor beast never had a chance from the beginning, for it was weakened by three years’ captivity, and had lost the swift activity of its wild nature. Its heavy mane defended its head and neck so well, that the Tiger could not inflict any severe injury on those portions, and the fatal lwounds, under which it sank, were all upon the flanks and abdomen,which were torn open by the Tiger’s claws.”

225.) The Year-book of Facts in Science and Art - Page 284. by John Timbs, Charles W. Vincent, James Mason - Science - 1872
He stated that when the Bengal tiger and African lion fought … the Roman amphitheatres, the tiger killed the lion

232.) Tigress kills Male Lion.



233.)


234.) Tigress kills Male lion.



235.)


245.)


249.)


250.)


254.)


255.)


256.)


258.)


259.)


291.)


292.)


299.)


309.)


312.)


315.) The Idler, Published by Chatto and Windus, 1899, Page 316
"there are several well-known cases of tigers having killed lions."

316.)


332


352.)


360.)


364.)




WOW, you would think that after repeating only two accounts, by just different sources over 100 times would be enough... No, it goes even further, he labels on the bottom of 367 a pro-longed list, which inlcudes more of martial and Jamrach…Lets get back into the reading:




2)“When the ancient Romans set tiger against lion in the Coliseum, the tiger invariably won…” - The Living Edens

3)“ The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful; in every case of a fight between the two in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent.” (Referring to the Asiatic lion) (pg. 212) - Big Game Shooting by Clive Phillipps- Wolley

5)They have accidentally gotten into each otherÂ’s cages, and the tiger has killed the lion. As regard to their comparative courage in the presence of man, all evidence is in favor of the tiger. Yet the poets nearly always insist on having it the other way. (pg 497)
- A Handy Book of Curious Information

8)“In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/165/proof21gner3.png

13)“The question is often raised whether the lion or the tiger is the more formidable beast. The evidence seems to be in favor of the latter for cases are in record of tigers in captivity killing lions but there appears to be no known instance of a lion killing a grown tiger.” –

17)The Book of Animal Facts and Feats suggest that records of the Roman arena reveal that tigers normally beat lions in fights.

71) Despite all the hype about the Caspian Tiger, the Romans preferred the Bengal Tiger. The Caspian Tiger is often mentioned by historians, and was the first tiger to be discovered by the West. However, later Roman records mention the Bengal Tiger more often. Thapar describes that the Bengal Tiger was easily purchased by the Romans via trade relations with Egypt. Roman also traded lions with China for silk and Spices. The Roman writer and satirist Martial describes that “the streets of Rome had seen more tigers then any hunter on the Ganges.” Romans associated the tiger with India. Martial describes a fight in the coliseum in which the lion is killed by a tiger. According to Martial, the tiger became more ferocious after associating with humans.

92) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times
___________________________________________________________________
93) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.
-Guiness book of records




Incredible... Look how far the extent of his biasness, deceptive lying goes, in how much he repeated just two accounts, but wait…hold up, I forgot my hanky XD…on the second page he pro-longs his list of the two same accounts in the “lion vs tiger battles”…lets get back in one more look:



http://jackjacksonj.webs.com/tigervslionbattles.htm

Here we go:









4.) The Windsor Magazine - Page 20 1896 "most naturalists are agreed that the average lion is no match for the average tiger, being not only generally smaller but much slower and more clumsy in his movements"

5.) The Journal of Science, and Annals of Astronomy, Biology, Geology … - Page 399 by James Samuelson, William Crookes - Science - 1871 The lecturer added that he was sorry to upset the superstitions of childhood, but the tiger is a much more powerful animal than the lion, and will always beat the latter. The lion had a great mane and looked big"

8.) Reference: Martial De Spectaculis 21 While the trainers of the rhinoceros may have trembled in fear at the fate that awaited them if their animal failed to perform, and another trainer was savaged by his lion,[24] some were more successful. One trainer was noted for his tigress which, though tame enough to lick his hand, had torn a lion to pieces, "a novelty unknown in any times"

10.) Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal, Exhibiting a View of the Progressive Discoveries and Improvements in the Sciences and the Arts - Page 57: In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots.

15.) Charles Darwin, "The descent of man, and selection in relation to sex, 1871 Page - 266-267 "In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: 'the lion's mane saved his neck and head from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead' "

18.) A Handy Book of Curious Information: Comprising Strange Happenings in the … - Page 497 by William Shepard Walsh - Encyclopedias and dictionaries - 1913 "They have accidentally got into each other's cages, and the tiger has killed the lion."

19.) The Eclectic Magazine - Page 547 by John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell - 1844 "Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim ; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on…"

21.) Big Game Shooting - Page 195 by Clive Phillipps-Wolley, Samuel White Baker, Reginald Heber Percy - Hunting - 1894 "The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful ; in every case of a fight between the two occurring in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent"

30.) The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature …Medical - 1850 Page 626 "But the Roman emperor was determined to try whether the Bengal tiger could fight the African lion, and Martial records that the tigers and lions fought, and that the tigers always beat the lions."

31.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21 by Arthur Nicols - 1885 "To this may be added the testimony of Martial, from actual observation of the contests in the arenas, where the tigers always killed their antagonists"

32.) Nature - Page 495 by Norman Lockyer, Nature Publishing Group - Science - 1875 "Martial also states that the tigers always killed the lions in the amphitheater. The lion is, in truth, a pretentious humbug, and owes his reputation to his imposing mane"

36.) The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature … Medical - 1850 Page 626 "The tiger, if in good condition, invariably kills the lion when compelled to fight."
37.) Curiosities of natural history - Page 234 by Francis Trevelyan Buckland - 1866 "The tiger immediately attacked the Lion, catching him by the throat, and in a few minutes killed him. This same tiger is, I believe, still being exhibited in Edmonds's menagerie."

38.) The Year-book of Facts in Science and Art - Page 284 by John Timbs, Charles W. Vincent, James Mason - Science - 1872 He stated that when the Bengal tiger and African lion fought … the Roman amphitheaters, the tiger killed the lion"

39.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21 by Arthur Nicols - 1885 "Many of the foregoing facts leave no doubt of the greater ferocity and courage of the tiger as compared with the lion. can be equally little question of his greater strength, which has been shown by Houghton to be only 69'9 per cent, for the fore limb, and 65'9 per cent, for the hind limb in the lion"

42.) The Illustrated Natural History - Page 162 by John George Wood - Natural history - 1865 "The same Tiger is also celebrated for his battle with a lion, resulting in the death of the latter. The two creatures had been put into one large cage, or box, which was divided by a partition in the center, so as to separate the two animals. While the attendants were" at their breakfast, the Tiger battered down the too frail barrier, and leaping into the lion's chamber, entered into fierce combat. Not even the keepers dared interfere to stop the battle, which raged until it was terminated by the slaughter of the lion. The poor beast never had a chance from the beginning, for it was weakened by three years' captivity, and had lost the swift activity of its wild nature. Its heavy mane defended its head and neck so well, that the Tiger could not inflict any severe injury on those portions, and the fatal wounds, under which it sank, were all upon the flanks and abdomen,which were torn open by the Tiger's claws."

43.) The Dublin university magazine - Page 409 by University magazine, Dublin city, univ - 1877 "He mentions a case in which a tiger in a menagerie burst through the partition of his den into a lion's, and in a few minutes killed him."

47.) Chicago Daily Tribune - Apr 22, 1882 A TIGER KILLS A LION. Exciting Scenes Incidental to Moving a Menagerie. Chicago Daily Tribune "In the same den were kept two lions and two tigers, seperated by a strong wooden partition. To such a pitch of ferocity was one of the tigers stirred by the arrangements for removal that he threw himself into a very frenzy of rage against the partition, pounced apon one of the lions, and, before keepers could lift an arm, fixed his fangs deep in the throat of his victim."

57.) Comparative Zoology, Structural and Systematic: For Use in Schools and Colleges - Page 395 by James Orton, Charles Wright Dodge - Zoology - 1895 - 434 pages "The Lion is the king of beasts in majesty, but not in strength. Five men can easily hold down a Lion, while it requires nine to control a Tiger."

59.) The Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature, Science, and Art - by John Holmes Agnew, Harry Houdini Collection (Library of Congress), 1883 Page 547 "Is the lion or the tiger the superior in courage and strength ? There is little evidence on record to help us to a decision, but all that there is is completely in favor of the tiger. The two animals have been put..."

70.) The Idler, Published by Chatto and Windus, 1899, Page 316 there are several well-known cases of tigers having killed lions.



WHOA! So lets tally up one by one just how many times two accounts were repeated…okay…so… since he counts the first as 60 accouns which is just edmonds menagerie faked by him combining two different articles, we add that to the exactly 100 other times he repeated it…(That I just showed) and we have a total of 2 acounts being repeated 160 times…I’ll say it again two accounts, repeated ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TIMES.

I Got the fire burning

And heres the Kicker, I will find out if Roy chapman, and a few other people that mentions a fight in a menagerie (Similar)…if they are mentioning edmonds menageries incident, toppled by the fact that other colomes such as “Tigers vs lion strength haughtons flawed and unproven self proclaimed science is being used, we could be looking at a grand total of 250 times 2 accounts was repeated. Not to mention all the other doubles and intriplicate repeats that is being used will push the overall repeated content to over 360 times he repeated the same things over and over.

He has over 100 aliases counting from all the sites hes on such as:

-W.C
-JamesRedhouse
-P Tigris7
-Just real
-Ernest Wright
-Jackjacksonj
-Captain asshole
-Ayaaz.sharks77551
-Lion life me
-Jamesredhouse 2
-Roflcopters
-Wolverines claws
-Justreal2
-Nothing00
-Kingtherpod
-Sunny
-jangidap.sharks77551
-royalbengaltiger
-tigon1
-Simba
-The lion man
-djlsjaljdfsklj
-white lion
-Slash Bite
-Phantera
-expertsview
-pckts
-Ronron
-King December
-Amnon202
-GuateGojira
-TigerisKing
-ApexKing
-Vetilius
-TigerBoss
-Golden Cougar
-Pradyuma Deadman
-Rage21
-Leon
-God vetilius
-Bengaltigerfan
-Numero uno
-keith
-bigbadbrody

Its clear that Jackjack has "multiple personality disorder" also known as Schizophrenia I like to just nick name him the Scitso...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

He must be just off his meds. At the end of the day, he is the one who has to deal with all the aliases he conjures up and who all will one day turn against him and all be screaming on the top of there lungs…we’re gona get ya:



(Notice all the hands trying to get at the young lad, they are all those aliases he made. So if you ever run into a debater of these names and uses these words to chastize you consistantly such as:

Autistic, Liar, fake, Idiot, propaganda, bias, tiger hater, lion fanatic idiocy, lies, trash, grabage, the biggest, everybody knows, only you, you use the same things over and over, you don’t have any…

Then that person will be no other then jackjacksonj himself, who uses those same chastizing and insulting verbals to others who have posted credible and reliable data. He has beenbeated down, exploited and exposed from every persibn he has debated with, so he has spamed the intire internet from blogs, to forums, youtube and more of his repeated content and butt hurtness, constnatly saying himself that he hates the lion…geez, Problems I tell you.

He tried to pollute the world with his disease, his stink lies and bias butt-hutness, this person is by far the biggest liar I have ever seen in my life. He now resides in:
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/forums/71

His safe haven and his damnation spot, where he is safe guarded by his bias mod friendos such as Paul aka P tigris and Perault, who erase any thing that favors the lion, erases whole pages of credible information that opposes their skin head nazi propaganda that pollutes the world with lies, upon twisting facts and bias butt hurtness.

Not on my watch...the truth we be known, the lies will be exploited and the people who push it out will be exposed. Karma has called upon a few to rise up and surface the truth. This has nothing to do with the tiger whom' I've always loved, and idlelized, its about the kid like fanatics, the degenerates the losers of the fanatic deceptive lying team on yuku.

And their fall has just begun, this isnt even half of the truth. The full truth has yet to come, and you can trust that the truth and the rightious...will conquer and destroy.

So I'll leave everyone with a moral to learn from, play with fire and you might get burned, inverse lie, decive and try to pullte the world, and you will be exposed and made an example out of, this is all I ask of the world:

Be true to thy self:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzQmC3S-mE

Alohas


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PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES






(Black maned lion, the smaller of the Tawny and Grey maned lion at 600-660 lbs)
http://books.google.com/books?id=LDVKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=El+Zarzouri+lion&source=bl&ots=5BaPoruxfB&sig=gvFj5DZBpJk12LUO9acKs5pGZ_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9yeUUpOzHM7qoASdyoLQDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBQ


John Varty:



"The manes on the male lions make them look larger and more fearsome. They protect the neck from blows from the opponent.

http://www.tigercanyons.co.za/newsletters68.htm


Dereck Jouberts:


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/jouberts/

After spending some 25 000 hours studying lions in Botswana I have come across just three maneless lions, so they are as rare as David Featherbe records in the latest issue of New Scientist to arrive at our camp in Botswana (In Brief, 24 February, p 8).

When speculating about why male lions have manes you have left out the most important reason. When male lions attack each other they mostly rear up on their hind legs and slap out at each other's heads and necks. The neck and throat are vulnerable and a full-bodied mane acts as protection against blows.

Remember that it is not necessary and often not desirable in nature for a conflict to end in the death of the vanquished, so much of this fighting is for display, with the mane giving protection, and many of these battles for territory are won on psychological...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020307.000-letters--by-any-other-mane.html

(Examples)

Lion and tiger Ukraine / Kiev Musienko Vladislav

{2010}
Even though we cant see the lions whole body and the fact that he tiger is side ways he should have looked bigger because the lion is verticle making him look slimmer, still the lion looks just about 2x bigger:


http://photo.unian.net/eng/themes/4014/?fp=280

Eloise Berchtold

{1966}
You can see the lions body is more roubust and the mid section is a lot larger and bigger than the tigers even though the lions mane is small indicating hes not fully grown yet:

http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006_04_11_archive.html



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


(Aggression and Boldness)

We'll find out which beast has more Valour, Courage, willingness to fight and Gamenss.


You know... when you have Pride and dignity and courage, you face your opponent head on, fairly, matching him beknownst and aware, as people learned from animal trainer Roman proske:



"We also found that lions will attack their prey from the front while tigers are like the house cat waiting their chance and attacking at the unexpected moment."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Roman+proske+We+ateo+found+that+lions+will+attack+their+prey+from+the+front+while+tigers+are+like+the+house+cat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

Same as Louis roth:



Nine times out of ten a lion will roar a warning before it attacks you"
http://www.google.com/search?q=nine+times+out+of+ten+a+lion+will+roar+a+warn-+ing+before+it+attacks+you+louis+roth+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

and Jim murray's interview with ringlings circus trainer Charly:

Charly Baumann


"Lions take less bluffing than a tiger. In the parlance of the fight game, a tiger has a little dog in him. But a lion will accept you as master once you have faced him down. A Tiger never accepts you as anything but a potential snack. A tiger will hit on the break, gouge thumb. He would attack a sleeping man. A lion will at least roar first."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Lions+take+less+bluffing+than+a+tiger+of+the+fight+game+He+would+attack+a+sleeping+man.+A+lion+will+at+least+roar+first&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N



The lion is a bit bigger because of his mane," says Pat, "but the tiger is almost the same size...the male lion will fight anything, anytime, any where without provocation.

~Milwaukee Sentinel - Feb 17, 1958
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pat+Anthony%2C+the+animal+trainer%2C+has+this+to+say+about+his+performing+animals%3A+A+lion+will+fight+anything%2C+anytime%2C+any+where+without+provocation.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=LNF2UqXzEIb8igKan4CwDg&sa=N

Another Indian sportsman tells us, that the lion, though not so swift as the tiger, is generally stronger and more courageous.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Another+Indian+sportsman-%5D-+tells+us%2C+that+the+lion%2C+though+not+so+swift+as+the+tiger%2C+is+generally+stronger+and+more+courageous.


Even in Kesri's inconsistantcys which we previously coverd two post behind, he goes on to contradict major advantages of the tiger with even better attributes the lion surpasses in which protains directly to fighting and would determine a usual leverage:



http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2010/06/kesri-singh-thakur-of-piploda-1903.html

“As a normal rule I should expect a lion to be more open and bold than a tiger...“The lions always attacked first”
http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA122&dq=Keshari++singh+The+lion+is+more+bold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R3BaUfp-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

As for Kesri's statement, that would almost solidify the lions position in india, since he would have the entire pride that as he mentions "is bolder and will attack first" so a coalition will be more determined to opprehend, chase down, and hunt/kill a tiger if they see him as a direct threat via territorial clash. And goes even for one on one bouts, the aggressor (the lion) will strike first, which could lead to a lucky punch/quick kill, as the one who hits first already has the advantages of Ko'ing their opponent:




Clyde beatty:

”They’re afraid of the lions. Want no part of them”
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


Abraham Cowley:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Cowley

Slaughter shall wear out these, new weapons get, And death in triumph on thy darts shall sit. When Judah's lion starts up to his prey. The beasts shall hang their ears, and jreep away; When he lies down, the woods shall silence keep, And dreadful tigers tremble at his sleep.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=yxhEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA187&dq=Abraham+Cowley+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J6aTUqPRF5PaoASux4DYAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBw


Digging deeper in why all majority of the past poets have recorded the tiger is fearful of the lion, we must study their sociality a bit more and see how they develop their core characters:


Pride


We all know that the the word pride for lions is there social group name, such as a school of fish, a hyena clan, a colonie of ants, a pack of wolves and a herd of buffalo, but there is a more deeper meaning to his title given, the lion is the only existing Panthera that lives in social groups, and with this unique evolutionary trait, the lion has embody’d something entirely new and different from all other cats, which is the actual defining of the word Pride. A asset in gaining more fighting mentality through emotion and mental estate is being confounded and has been discoverd by the lion, he has a title such as Gaurdian, Father, Protector, Mentor and Teacher, which bestows responsibility, worrying, dread, bravery, courage all which something to be proud of in the end, cultivated out of (Pride);. as is the verdict/outcome of experincing these traits/emotions, this will give the lion the extra edge in going alot further mentally in a fight for he will have something worth dying for, his Pride...he will push the fight much harder, he will have more reason and more.... willpower.


Lets look what the Dictionary says on the word Pride:


Definition of Pride

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4.
a. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pride

The Cubs


The cubs will obtain something no living panthera gets and learns, (A New Element) from the Male lion :

* Appreciation
* Respect
* Nobility
* Honor
* Love
* Gameness
* Loyalty
* Friend-ship
* Forgiveness
* Fighting experince

The cubs will pick up on a revolutionary skill the existing pantheras such as leopards, jaguars, tigers ect, will never grasp; the lion cubs will have someone to look up to, a Idle, a Father, a Role-model and a Hero, they will achive a new level of hierarcy and knowledge of respect, the lion cubs will learn from watching the male lions fight, each time absorbing information learing how to be more effective in battle, gaining new fighting stradegies, moves/stances, tacitics, exploits weaknesses, what doesn’t work and what does work in a fight, The lion like spartans, teached their sons the arts of combat and war:

.



The notion of the tiger is like Rambo, Bruce lee, ect is not entitled to the tiger, since the tigers teacher/father has no take/accord in his life, the male tiger abondins the femlae and cubs, and the mother/tigress is the teacher in showing the cubs how to hunt, no fighting attributes is taught to the tigers other then the cubs experimenting wrestling on there own making things up on the fly, while lions have there Fathers, Uncles, Granpas, and Older brothers to learn from, comparing the tiger to any human idle in the arts of combat is impossible; since humans are the masters of sociality, gyms, dogos, classes, ect all are forms of social traits…

If it wern't for the male lion sticking around the lions would have 1/10th the fighting experince and knowledge, the males are the Key, the Guides and the blue prints in sharing there knowledge and funneling there experince in fighting to the next generation, going back to ‘The greats'....

Bruce lee was taught by his mentor and master Ip man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man

Mike Tyson was guided by his trainer Cus D’amato:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

And even Rambo had special forces bestow there knowledge into him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trautman


You see, all the greats have become what they are from a consistancy of sociality, the same way the lion has a mentor, master, trainer, teacher and guide to learn from, the tiger is more of a hobo, a drifter, a non-social entity and ninja of the wild.

The lions mentality will always have plots and goals to reach wheather if its trying to protect his pride/family from other predators and rivals, or trying to fill in his mentors shoes, the lion will have ambition, goals, a legacy to up-hold, it is embeded in their Dna, they are war-like animals, the closes't things to humans, and the second in line to rule after us as speices of conflict. The lion will have a huge edge mentally, since the more one is exposed to fighting the more one adapts to it, learns its ways and perfects it, to be the best you have to be consistant at it.

The Pride is no easy life, as most fanatics claim from yuku, that lions only play, nothing is learned or gained, that entirely false, some fights break out randomly in prides and some cubs are killed by there own parents:




http://forums.canadiancontent.net/science-environment/58799-astonishing-pics-show-lion-cub.html

The lion has one of the toughest lives to live, they are constantly kept game even in there own pride, alone a tiger will grasp nothing in the world of fighting, hunting and fighting is two different things, physically, mentally and emotionally many things will par-take in fighting, and the lion for some reason moved away from his genus and went 10 steps foward, the male lion is just as protective as the female if not more.

The male lion also:

+ Provides some of the food
+ Disiplines and keeps the pride obident
+ Teaches higher morals and lessons of safty and protection

http://www.gilladventures.com/blog/2011/02/04/foto-phaves-schotia-safari/



In which in terms, will have a positive reinforcement both ways, a take and give scenario, allowing not only exposer to more fighting in general, but to learn how to tolerate it and balance it out, unlike the tiger whos basically goes by the authority of... the hell with every body I'm not sharing, dont come by me, if I see you I will attack an kill you type of attitude (Cunning), also qualitys that can relate to stingy, stubborn, ignorant and afraid of confrintation on basic levels. How many people watch UFC and say, the fighters are cunning? None. The lion emotionally, and mentally is well tied to being a calm and assertive fighter, he is after all submerged in it weekly being social, while the tiger only fights no more than a hand full of times in his entire life.


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


INDIA



JAPAN/CHINA

http://images2.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2007-09/20/7510731-1-1.jpg&tmp=web300&top=0.000000&left=0.000000&right=1.000000&bottom=1.000000&dt=zoom_image

AMERICA




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


It seems the little records of the tiger killing the lion, is of similarities to experts opinions, anecdotes and historical consistancy's, that the tiger does not like to fight a fair fight and will kill other animals when they are in their weakes't state:

Tragically, the lioness Savannah, as she was recovering from the drug, was attacked by the male tiger Seatao. Previously, Seatao had greeted the lioness with no aggression, then as she began to walk around the boma, he sensed that she was weak from the darting and he attacked her, knocking her down. With 1000 lbs per square inch jaw power, he pushed the 5 inch canines deep into her throat. Although she survived the night, she succumbed to massive internal bleeding.


(Seatao stalking Savannah)



(Seconds after this picture was taken, Seatao attacked Savannah)



http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm


Yet even by ambush, the lion (Male) would be hard to pounce from behind on:

“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.

~Sunday Vindicator - Nov 21, 1915
http://www.google.com/search?q=rampant+battle++standing+on+all+fours+appeared+to+be+ten+feet+high+was+renewed%2C+the+lion+knocking+the+tiger+down+five+times++fire+dead&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



We know that:

-Ambush is how the tiger hunts & fights, while Up and up is how the lion hunts & fights
-The lion has more Bravery, Courage, Valour, Nobility.
-The tiger is more rutheless, cunning and sneaky.
-The algerian lion can be just as heavy as the record breaking siberian tigers in the wild.
-The tiger is more vulnerable to the throat than the lion who has a protecting factor.
-The title of King must be achived in more than numerous trials and tribulations.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2013 at 23:23
Prime great new info you've gathered here in proof of the lion's side.
The Expert opinions list in Chronological order is even larger now.  Check it out.

http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/587/Expert-opinions-favoring-the-lion-in-chronilogical-order#.UpgSruLnBJc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2013 at 23:34
Hey D,

Cool to hear from you again, hows it been, hows the gang? I can't read the site since my safari crashed, this explorer can only read an open up cerain sites...but if you like, you can post the newer ones here, Red clay the admin is fine with abundent an large post.

Did you all find any new accounts too?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2013 at 00:07
The info your finding is amazing, some of those ancient Chinese quotes of the Emperors seeing the lion subdue the tiger when housed together in the same cages is pretty stunning.

The list in Chronological order is being updated with all the new evidence you've found and some of my own.  Here is some new recent findings.  Joe Exotic has up to 200 lions and tigers, this guy would know which cat is tougher, because he has many lions and tigers living together.  




---{2013}---





Keith Evans
  




Noted exotic feline trainer and conservationist.

Some of the proceeds from operation of the MGM Lion Habitat have gone to help lion conservation projects in the wild. Most notably, money was given to Dr, Craig Packer and the The Lion Research Institute . This institute is undoubtedly the best known lion research project in the world. This money was used to help fund a program to control canine distemper among lions in East Africa.

I have worked for over 40 years in close contact with all big cats and the social nature of lions has been my greatest pleasure.

We are doing our best to provide a loving home for all the lions in our care for the rest of their natural lives.

We would be pleased if anyone else would like to share in this goal.

Thank you

Keith Evans / President

The Cat House, Inc.

http://www.lionhabitatranch.com/




  • The Lion Habitat Ranch in the wild lions and tigers no longer share a habitat and anyone that puts them together in captivity is not following nature's design. Logically a Siberian Tiger which reach 750 lbs in the wild would out weigh a large wild lion at 500 lbs but the lion is very possessive where the tiger is not as much so if I had to escape one it would be the tiger.
         

  • The Lion Habitat Ranch
    The Lion Habitat Ranch

    I have raised and work both lions and tigers and like I said I d rather deal with a problem tiger than lion. But I would never put them together.

                                                                                    
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=615507868511814&id=271167609612510&comment_id=5398148&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=feed_comment_reply








Joe Exotic





Who is Joe Exotic?

Joe Exotic is one of the world's leading experts in the care of Big Cats. Housing over 170 tigers and lions it makes the  Gerold Wayne Interactive Zooloigal Park the world's largest accredited refuge for big cats in the world. 

http://www.joeexotic.com/

http://gwzoo.org/


When asked the question, based on his experience with both cats, which did he think was the tougher fighter the lion or tiger.

Joe responded.

" We have many lions living with tigers, but in a fight, the lion would win."






---{2008}---


Kidd Bauer







Kid, by the way, trained all cats one sees in a circus. Male lions were the most 'naughty', he thought. A fight between a lion and a tiger would be very close and he slightly favored the lion because of the mane and the aggressive nature of many male lions.   
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2371/A-DAY-AT-THE-CIRCUS?page=11#.UpeuGOLnBJc




A Zoologist on the site, http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=70877
has said he thinks the lion would win 7/10 times and even gives his own personal account.

"  My personal observations of each animal separately and together support this.
-In a large circular cage in Mexico city I have seen an African male lion maul a larger Siberian tiger and an adolescent male Siberian tiger to death. The adolescent was a year old. It is extremely sad that these fights are used for entertainment but at the same time I was awed to see one lion defeat two large tigers with all 3 animals in the cage at the same time.
-My teammates and I were transporting a male African Lion into a cage neighboring a Bengal Tigers cage in Kenya. There was a small opening in between the two cages for intermingling of neighboring animals. It was supposed to be closed at the time but someone forgot to close it. The lion sprang from the transportation container through the opening and mauled the tiger of similar size. We tranquilized the lion but it was too late. Two days later, the tiger died due to fatal wounds. It was a very one sided fight where the lion spent much time chasing the tiger.

Please, do not believe any videos you see on the internet. They are all altered to favor either the tiger or the lion. And please, do not get so worked up on things such as tigers vs lions. I am not saying a lion will always beat a tiger.  Tigers have been seen defeating lions. Individuals are different. But all other conditions being constant, the lion, according to observed statistics would win 7/10 of the time."



---{1985}---

Alan Gold

%237%2BAlan%2BGold.jpg
http://yesterdaystowns.blogspot.com/2007/05/circus-vargas-3.html

Alan Gold largest mix cat act in the 80s.

Alan Gold also had a mixed group. In 1985, a free for all erupted. He lost two lions and one tiger. The lions were killed by other lions. The tiger was killed by lions. Gold, regarding the way both cats fight, compared to Beatty. He stated lions fight in a calculated way, whereas tigers, in a free for all, are nervous and vulnerable.
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2371/A-DAY-AT-THE-CIRCUS#.UpV0suLnBJc




The new quotes you got for Terrell Jacobs, Hoover, Nelson, are amazing as well, there all updated.  There is just more quality quotes from guys who actually mixed these cats the most, on the lions side.

As well, I visited some bigcat places, I saw over several dozen lions and tigers.  Every tiger I saw had a long narrow body in appearance, its mid section was slight.  If it was heavier then the lions, it was simply because it was just longer or a taller animal.  Every lion I saw had a larger chest then every tiger, even lions that were smaller had mid sections that were built like tanks.  No joke.

Beatty was right in his quote, he said the lion was heavier in the front quarters and could take it better then a tiger.  That is precisely what they looked like, cats designed to beat each other.

The tiger looked like a cat designed for grace and agility with a sleeker build.  All these cats were not over fed, but given the exact amount for body weight.  So when fed the same, the lion has a much larger bulkier mid section and body, even rear quarters then the tiger.  The zooligist there agreed with that, as well. 

Pictures don't do justice to what I saw, lions lower limbs on the other hand are a little thinner then the tigers, because there designed with more endurance so they can run and trot accross the african planes.  They have to chase out invaders often and engage them, there is a lot of running and chasing.  Sometimes it can be for up to a mile or so.  Moving quickly.  And then even a fight.  So the lions limbs are designed for moving at longer periods of time then the tigers shorter thicker lower limbs.  So every stride the lion takes, its limbs use up less energy then the tiger.

But other then that, the lions were built like tanks, there shoulders, trapezius muscles, upper back muscles the lattisimus dorsi muscle and whole mid section and chest was larger then every tiger I saw.  This is pretty compelling, the lions over all physique through out its body is designed thicker and chunkier then the tiger on average, and the lion has increased strength in its upper back muscles and chest and shoulders.  In person is the only way to really know, and in person for sure without a doubt out of several dozen or so cats, yes the lions body is more solid and thicker then the tigers, many tigers almost looked paper thin when they turned to the side.  But again every tiger seemed to have the advantage in the lower limbs. 

Also no tiger was aggressive, not one roared or growled when eating, yet every lion growled and roared when being fed.  And as well there was a closed exhibit of a lion and tiger living together of similar size, and guess what the intern there told me.  The lion was dominating the tiger, and taking its food.  They had to be very careful when feeding them, as to not cause the lion to hurt the tiger.  The exhibit is closed to the public because the lion is too aggressive.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2013 at 01:03
Wow, incredible stuff D,

Look at that lions mane, whoa...thats a huge protecting factor, even the people who favored the tiger an has slight credentials of being knowedge-able about both states the lions mane comes in handy, as for who strikes harder.


[size=24]EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION

(Who hits harder?)

Samuel Baker:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Baker

The head and neck are larger, although, when boiled and cleaned, the skull does not exceed in size that of an ordinary tiger. It may be safely stated that a lion which measures 9 ft. 8 inches in length would weigh heavier than a tiger of the same dimensions. I have already described that the tiger when springing to the attack does not strike a crushing blow, but merely seizes with its claws. A lion, on the contrary, strikes with terrible strength, at the same time that it fixes its claws upon its victim. The force of this blow is terrific, and many a man has been killed outright as though struck with a sledge-hammer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lDUtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=baker+lion+tiger+strikes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KyCYUsviBoTloASW_ICIDg&ved=0CBcQ6AewAg

The tiger does not, like the lion. strike a heavy blow with his paw.
~Chicago Tribune - Jan 4, 1905
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+tiger+does+not%2C+like+the+lion.+strike+a+heavy+blow+with+his+paw.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

PORTUGESE/SPANISH

Looks to have gaven the lion a point for the harder striker:


Clyde beatty:





[size=24]HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ROME

I have only found a few more sources protaining to the romans, so the list is only slightly greater, but we both remember Pckts rants about dis-crediting people like martin seyers, Ken spiro and others, saying any one can say an make up things. lol So I dug up their credentials and even I was amazed, they would be considered the most highest authoritys (At-least historically speaking).

MASTERS DEGREE

A master's degree is an academic degree granted to individuals who have undergone study demonstrating a mastery or high-order overview of a specific field of study or area of professional practice.[1> Within the area studied, graduates are posited to possess advanced knowledge of a specialized body of theoretical and applied topics; high order skills in analysis, critical evaluation or professional application; and the ability to solve complex problems and think rigorously and independently. The degree is awarded upon graduation from a university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree

Lets look at their credentials now:

- Historian Ken Spiro (M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University)
- Historian Margaret George (University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A)
- Historian and Archaeologist (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
- Professor Thomas Gray (Historian at Cambridge University.)
- Professor Adolph Hausrath theologian (Privatdozent P.D German universities)
- Theologian Edward beecher (Graduated in Yale college in 1822)
- Charles Scribner's Sons (American writing company dates back to 1821)
- Museums and Their Development (Psychology Press, 1656)
- Native to the holy roman empire, Johan Wenzel Peter (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to the holy roman empire Cicero
- Native to the holy roman empire, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to rome Pietro Aquila (Royal Emperyium engraving/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Théodore Géricaul: (Painting/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome HECHT Joezef Polish: (Painting/root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Richard westall: (Engraving/root artifact)
- Roman Royal Athena (Belt buckle/Root artifact)
- Mosiac in the house of faun (Pompeii A.D)
- Mosaic in the house of caecilius jucundus (Pompei A.D)
- Two Marbel stone peices (Circa 1700 & the other 1920)
- Greek statue (Artifact)
- Phaedrus (written abstracts
- Plato's dialogues
- Latin writer Aesop
- Eye Witness, Mr. Bolton (veorna 1834)
- Eye witness Trainer Kose (Turin italy)
-Eye witness, Rudolf kludsky to several occaisons (Turin italy)



I’ll get the links in them later.

[size=24]HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

LION DEFEATS/SUBDUES TIGER IN 1 ON 1 COMBAT

This contest being finished a royal tiger of unsual strength and beauty was brought forth. He was called Ahriman, after the Prince of Darkness. The tigers advesary was an immense lion called ormuz, after the price of light. A living lamb was cast down before the two, but this was amore than lindagull could endure. She gave a sign and the trembling little creature was snatched away; and in its stead one of the dead dogs was cast before the wild animals.

The lion was hungary and immediately rushed upon the prey, The tiger Jealous by nature, also darted forward furiously, eager to deprive the lion and to get the prey himself. This was the most terrible contest of all. The air echoed the dreadful roaring of the angry beasts, the sand was thrown up by their paws and colored red with their blood.

They fell over each other, they seperated, they rushed against each other again. All the spectators trembled, entranced. Long was the strife undecided, but the tiger ahriman finally succumbed and Ormuz was led from the arena in triumph.

~Translated from Norweigon & Scandanavian by ~Emilie Poulsson
http://books.google.com/books?id=LyrPlD7n-OYC&pg=PT35&dq=lions+fought+tiger+arabs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOBUtGdIcSYiAK-1YGICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg

Emilie was known for childrens books, but the fact that this book was translated by her and not written holds merits. (More will be looked into it later for its credability)

(Proof showing just how harder the lion hits)






As goes for th chinese, yeah...they shine more of a light than anything pckts the liar brought, since they are only being taken out of context and not directly comparing what both are capable of doing to the other, its just cultural idenity, even leopards are more cunning, faster and have high statuses being one of the most powerful predators, doesn't mean providing multiple links of people saying it makes the leopard the better fighter and be able to kill the lion more than vice versa.

The experts you provided are awesome too, will be giving it a read later, an if you'd like you can tell some of the other nutruels to come here too, to share any new info, or just dicuss, that way you dont have to worry about things being constantly erased and chastized by Perault, P tigris and the rest of the bias lion haters, I got the credentials of what I posted just now about the historians, becuase I am finally gonna take a break from this topic, even though I said that last time lol But yeah, I jotted it down that way, when I'm gone if the tiger fanatics wanna try an discredit those historians ect everyone can see just how reliable the content is. But when I come back, I will by that time have a newer computer and then its gonna be, on like Donkey kong. lol

But keep up the good work bro, I think you are surpassing alot of the older posters in alot of credible stuff brought to the table, that being I still think. Leofwin and Boldchamp are still one of the best, after all...look at most of the scans links...they have bold champ and leofwins names on them. lol But we all have been putting in some valuable things lately, and later I think we can make it conclusive....if we can double it maybe...triple all the content in its own catagories, then it will be unanymous...as for now, I'm fine with keeping it 50/50.

K bro...Alohas ^_^

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 11:11
 Totally agree, the lions strike is harder then a tigers or other cats.  That guy Samuel Baker is a great source, he was an explorer who hunted and saw both lions and tigers up close, as well he won several geographical medals from Britian and france.  Notice also he said the lions shoulders and neck were larger then the tiger.  That's where lions exceed all other cats, and in there back muscles and chest.  The shoulders and back put far more force into the swing, there is more weight in the lions front quarters up top, there more or less top heavy, the tigers are the opposite, there slight and narrow on top, yet thicker on the bottom.  Tiger are more designed to ambush quickly, jump, and hang on the prey gripping it with there forearms.

Lions also have more coordination with there strikes, they are programed to be able to throw a strike in such away that there leaning into it putting there whole body weight behind.  Tigers as a species don't know how to do that, no other cats does.  Lions strikes come from a wide angle generating more force as the strikes comes, when it finally hits the opponent it clubs them, stunning them threw the mane protection into submission or knocking them over.  Tiger more or less can only claw and scratch the opponent, where as lions have mane protection, clawing and scratching doesn't work.



male-lion-striking.gif
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 17:17
Wholey shit, look at that gif...never seen tigers fight like that an have that type of power, the people who say the tiger is a better fighter just because of his flurrys using two paws, obviously doesn't know Iron Mike. Yup, by now we all know the physiology of lions are built much taller, broader, stronger and more robust, I didn't even know by that much, 5.5 inches is the gold standard, an who knows...smith could have been comparing bengals to africans, not the rest of the tiger sub-species such as malay, javan, bali, sumatran, asiatic ect.

Mass is one thing, but everybody likes height more, so I would think in the cat world being on all fours, the lion must be extremely inposing to the tiger...I read in too much of what Prathap them said about the largest tigers are taller than the largest lions, thats B.S, bengals already are at 3 ft. 3 in; even asiatic lions are confortable at 3 ft. 11 in; so comparing smallest to smallest (Bali) vs (Asiatic) the lion probably is over a foot taller, and largest to largest I dont think that a tiger can have that much of a huge spike from near 3; to more than 5 all of a sudden, there are numerous 5 feet tall lions mentioned, and many lions I've seen like simba at colchester zoo proves it.

an Yeah, I agree with you, in fact one of your newer experts mentioned the lions smashing hits on W.A.E, while the tigers rapid flurrys, when you add up altogether who lands more of those hits gif wise and experts who say it, the difference is significant, thats also why maybe alot of te artifacts show the tiger in a prostrate position, certainly the tiger couldn't replicate it as much or at all. It be good for me on that break, because once I get another Computer at that time, I can get back to emailing, digging through different newspaper archives, most of the ones I showed can be easily gotton, they usually show (Get this newspaper) on the right side of the page, and you can pay 2 bucks or so to get a Pdf if you sign up for a month at 9 bucks you can download as much as you want in that time period, so I'll be doing that later. Like I said, in my absence you can invite kaos, lion claws, bold, leo them here to keep you company...Red clay here is pretty cool...and you will atleast have a peice of mind away from the fanatics on yuku.

To be honest, when I look at what we have, on the bigger scale we don't have all that much, we've only been dabbling in the english language, that means their is only gona be a limited supply of people who translated their historical significance to english, so later I can look in other places and contact some real deal people with credentials. We have the basics in quanity and its not worth disccusing an trying to prove minor details like a small quota that has no substance is suppose to be taken into account as the holy grail like pckts and p tigris them do discussing their 1,000's of lies and repeats like they have the answer going on 9 years now...pathetic...and its a waste of time, since in one post I can exploit and expose all of their B.S lies...while you an I could be finding more in that time laps after all, you and I were basically the newer members of the yuku, we haven't been on this subject 1/10th the amount of time they have, an we already accumilated 10x more than them... later...we will get some scholar level amounts, altogether if snipped out, organized and formated in neatly, the data combine with what I got on the team authroity forum could push maybe 4 pages worth, if they are all cramed in straight to the point... thats nothing, I've seen some historical blogs on certain cultures like the romans, Indians an chinese go on forever, like 300 pages worth, later when that computer comes in...I'm sure we could broadin and magnify the quality and quanity 3x fold. Theres no sense in me picking up the scraps little by little, I'm looking for pay dirt to lead me to that glory pot of gold lol so its better off if I be paitient, and bide my time till we get there.

Belive me, we'll get there. So keep up the good work...and I'll catch you laters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 20:40
Thanks great info on the bears, for some reason I can't respond in the private message on here, not sure why, but yeah for sure the lion is capable of beating bears, and I do think it has an edge over tigers.  You need endurence, lions have more then any other cat.  As well lions have the more diverse fighting techniques then tigers, they'll fight real low to the ground, dodge swipes and bites with there heads.  If the tiger leaves its head open and rears up on its legs and takes one of those bear swipes to the face, its going to be lights out for sure. Ive seen videos of tigers practice fighting, and they just don't know how to move the head out of the way, there heads are real stiff, each tiger was batting the other on the head, they just traded blows with each other without moving there head out of the way.

Because lions have a mane as well, they have added methods of fighting, they've learned how to attack around the mane, dive underneath and bite the the front legs or under the neck.  Tigers don't do that, you don't see them diving low to the ground with there faces scrapping the ground going for a lashing bite.  The biggest thing I can say that is a for sure from what ive seen in person, is the lion has a more condensed mid section that is more solid then the tiger, stocky looking, including the lioness's.  As well for sure the lions chest is larger, and its upper back is bigger.  This is almost a guarantee, the lions I saw were very top heavy very barrel chested.  I could actually hear the ground shake as one of the lion sparing threw the other to the ground with just its mouth.  Lions have more coordination with there neck and jaws, they can throw opponents with just the mouth and neck.  There are no clips of tigers doing that.

Also lions can bite like dogs, cats can not bite fast, they go for one bite at a time, but lions like dogs can maul and control and dominate an entire fight with just there mouth alone not even using any paws.

As far as the height is concerned sometimes tigers can be taller, and longer, I saw several that were at a place, but these tigers were all narrow and long in there bodies.  And you have mixed siberian in captivity, so that gives some height and paw size to the captive tigers.  Also captive tigers can grow even larger skulls and bones as well being neutered.
As far as height, from what Ive heard, yes the lion has that advantage, plus it holds its self taller, but its generally going to have an average of a couple of inches in length in the arms.  The tiger seems to have a few inches width in the lower wrist area, forearms, and biceps. But at the same time the lions bones are harder then the tigers, so its like getting hit with a metal rod when they strike you.
But I would say it is possible from some data that a tall lion could have a 5 inch difference in height over a shorter tiger.  But thats not usually going to happen.  It should usually on average be a few inches.

But for sure this is a fact, the lions mid section chest and back, is thicker then the tigers, its built like armor.  Tigers when not gorged look like long narrow cats in there whole body.  As well tigers have very thin narrow rear quarters and legs, the lions female and males that I saw had more muscular rear quarters and legs, but the tigers rear quarters were longer.

I agree about the mane as well, for sure its a factor, sometimes a huge a factor, there are so many video clips available showing it work, and countless eyewitnesses seeing the mane work.  Lions are designed for combat and endurance, there lower limbs are designed to chase and run longer patrolling there territory, and there bodies are like tanks, barrel chested to take abuse from opponents. The whole mid section upper back the lattisimus dori muscles, shoulders and mane are designed to repel blows.  This was clear from what I saw in person.  Tigers are not designed like this.  Think of house cats, there slender and sleek in the mid section, designed for grace and stealth and agility, this is how most cats are including the tiger, the tiger is just larger, and has muscular lower arms.  But other then that, tigers have a typical cats design, designed for the purpose of grace and stealth.  Which gives them a body speed advantage over the lion.

Lions are designed the opposite, not for grace or agility but for fighting, so they can unleash more powerful blows, and in return have the body that can with stand them.  There physique and design because of it actually slows them down as such a bit.  But with that said, lions have more built in evasion techniques, including with there whole bodies.

But great info, you've found a lot of new stuff, very legit.  Keep it coming.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 22:41
In due time, I just un-covered 2 major things:

1.) That the Baroda account is probably a fake since its similaritys are too matching to a writer that managed to write numerous occaisons of animal fights like his Gorilla and lion fight:


I don’t know how these storys got onto to newspaper articles, but they managed to be spread on multiple braches...

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary+lion+gorilla+Star.%29+In+gloomy+recesses+of+the+primeval+forests+still+to+be+found+In+Central+Africa+there&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Yet you know me, I am a keen observer of (Chronology) that story was already written on multiple books.


Once a Week by: Eneas Sweetland Dallas Bradbury & Evans, 1863

[colo=red]Heres the missing part the newspaper stations were missing:

I paused in my efforts to extricate myself, and listened. Again and again my name was called loudly, distinctly, and earnestly.

"John, John!" It was the voice of my wife whom I had left safely at home in London.

"John, John! Wake up, will you? You've got the nightmare, and have fallen out of bed! John, John, do get up, dear! You've dragged all the bedclothes down on the floor with you. You've rolled yourself up in them so tightly that I can't get you out. You'll be smothered if you don't wake up. Oh dear! oh dear me 1 Wake up, you great stupid, do!"

"Bless my soul!" said I. "How fortunate— how curious it is, too, that you should have come to my rescue so opportunely. It was very kind of you, and so courageous besides! When did you arrive out 1—Do you know I was wondering, just as I was tumbling into this horrid pit, why the gorilla's wife didn't come to his assistance. You know she might have done it easily and safely enough, for the lion wouldn't have let go his hold, and if she had sprung on his back she might have enabled her husband to freshen his grip. They might have quickly strangled him between them. Is it not cu—"

"My goodness gracious me!" said my wife, interrupting me. '' What stuff and nonsense are

you talking? Lions and gorillas !

http://books.google.com/books?id=A_VMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=gorilla+lion+Oh,+do+wake+up!+You've+got+the+nightmare,+and+fallen+out+of+bed!&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LZ2aUtSEEsz0oATO_oDQDw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA



lol, it was all a dream, and the story is a fake, some mook probably cut it out and reported it as a real event, that’s why multiple newspaper acrhcives unbeknownst printed their copy and look at the end, nonsense XD XD Isint that the word Pckts uses like a hundred times a day? Karma lol.

-The head line Extraodinary combat is way to similar to the baroda and gorilla fight.
-The content, penmenship and writing style is again too similar.
-The years they came out are way to close to be another writer.


LION AGAINST TIGER An Extraordinary Combat In Which The King Of Beasts

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary%20vanquished%20A%20fairly%20fought%20battle%20between%20lion%20and%20tiger,%20however&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


This writer also has a account where a horse defeats a tiger, same writing style, same content in india, a monarch ruler, same type of hard-boiled substance, and exact same year as the baroda account artcile. Baroda is a fake. That would mean even less fights have been recorded through out history of tigers defeating lions, and they lost their most valuable one their only fairly fought fight with a male lion...sad. I'll just dig through the book archives later an I know I'll find a older book on that occaisons than the newspaper articles. And that will be the end of it.



2.) I Did however find a valuable, reliable account of a tiger beating a lion, that no one on yuku has ever presented, and I'm not going to share it...muwha ha ha, muuwaha ha ha haa, that goes to show how Karma plays a role in life, how could I have found it so fast, when the whole tiger supporting team of over 8 members on yuku like Prathap, Perault, Peter, P tigris, Pckts ect ect all members for over 7 years, who constantly repeat the same 14 accounts of poor substance and repeat them in over 300 repeated different sources and not find what I found? Karma...thats why. they are so fixiated and bias, they will hold on to lies which will ubstruct them of finding the truth. The only one I slightly trust at this point is Peter, and unless he wants to cut in a deal, a trade for a trade, I know he knows alot more accounts of lions killing tigers, he was the one to say one of the tigers in alan golds act was killed by his lions...but as usual he never provides any links to the lion victorys, yet he remains with his; a tiger can beat a lion 8/10 times. lol With what records?

Later I will cut a deal with him and provide a link and photo of the event...if he shares a account he never presented and halfly consealed himself...other wise he can go find it himself, and if they haven't found it by now going on over 7 years, I dought they ever will.

But it truely is hard pressed to find a fair fight of a tiger winning, or why would jackjacksonj repeat 2 main accounts over 160 times? Heck theres more than a 100 cases lions have killed tigers, an less than 20 of vice versa. Beatty alone has just about 50 in one crack. 15 from the roman arenas, 10 from india 4 From jam saheb, 4 from Rudolf kludsky, 3 from altoona mirror, probably 4 from dave hoover and theres your hundred right there, and thats not even the whole list, not to mention more should be looked into books on Terrell and Nelson, since they have seen many times lions beat tigers and had the biggest acts behind beatty, so I'm sure here and there will have some death an defeating accounts from those two alone.

But we'll see, I am 100% confident I can atleast double the amount of death accounts later, and the amount we have now to the understanding how the whole statistics in how they stack up, I'm sure I'll find a few more of tigers winning, but it wont be much atleast thats what the data already suggest. I know where to look, its just this computer is not compatible. So instead of picking up bread crubs, I'm gona wait to I hit the bakery. lol

We'll see.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2013 at 09:49
Yeah one of those accounts sounds like a story not a real event. 

Ive noticed that, it seems a lot of the tigers side expert opinions are many repeated newspaper articles with a random person pretty much just saying they think the tiger is more powerful or impressive then the lion, more of an a opinion.  Some of the trainers have quotes that don't sound that legit either, there is a lot of holes in what there saying.  They have a trainer named Old Andrew, who says hes slapped around a lion 2 3rds grown but yet there is no way he could do that to a tiger.  That is completely false, there are loads of tigers that aren't full grown that people can play with and tame, and there much better natured as well for being used in circuses. Then after that the trainer says a tiger can always beat a lion because the lion is always lazy like a dog, the tiger never is.  This is just ridiculous.  Even Pat Anthony is quoted as saying the lion will fight anything, anytime anywhere without provocation.

As well, I found out from a description of Anthony's act, he did not mix the cats that much at all, but he did the tigers separately with lioness's, and some male lions alone in the arena at that end.  So how could he see that many fights.  Also the most male lions you can see in his acts in pics is only one or 2, usually just one.  Probably he only trust like on good natured male, the rest are a bunch of tigers and lioness's.

Not every one mixed the cats, some worked with both species but they didn't mix them like Terrell, Beatty, Nelson, Hoover, Peters, and others.  Beatty may have mixed them the most.  Sometimes Beatty had more lions in the cage, sometimes not, but Nelson and Hoover are both quoted as saying they used and even amount of tigers and lions.  That's pretty big, because it proves the lions weren't just winning because there were more in number.  I think Trevor Bale used more tigers in his act, Dohtre as well, and both those guys saw the lion come out on top. Alan Gold had the biggest mix act in the 80s, at that time they weren't mixing the cats as much, but hew was trying too, it said he was going for 20 or so in the cage which was a lot for then.  And just like Beatty he saw the tiger nervous and vulnerable when fights broke out, there just not wired like lions, lions according to one trainer that Peter mentioned said they actually enjoy the fighting they don't even care if they loose, they just want to fight.

So it isn't that when there is a gang up its because the lions want to always help the other lion, its because they instinctively just can't help but to join in the nearest fight.
It is important to note though to be fair, that there were more tiger deaths in Beatty's act because of the ganging up of lions.  But this is where tiger fans make the mistake of thinking that is the only reason the lions are killing tigers or the only reason there winning.  No, because Beatty also says he saw the lion win 9 out of 10 times in an even fight.  Marco Peters said in a one on one the lion wins.  Terrell said the lion always wins.  The reason though as well you might get less deaths in one on ones, isn't because the lion can't kill the tiger, but because in a one on one, its much easier for the trainer such as Beatty to stop it in time before there is a death.  But its almost impossible to stop a big gang fight with multiple cats all going at it, every one for its self, at that point many trainers have to get out of the cage to save there very life, and poke sticks through the bars, spray the hose and fire blanks through the cage.

Because we have accounts of lions killing tigers very quickly one on one, Ceasar killed to tigers instantly.  Both male tigers in the bigcage were killed so fast they had to use a 3rd to get more footage.  And even in the 3rd fight, the lion won the first round making the tiger submit, and that lion seen in that fight was not a noted lion, Beatty had many powerful lions he could of used that would of destroyed that tiger.

I think the trainers are the ones that really know, particularly the mix cat trainers.  I found out another guy they were using to favor the tiger Gunther Williams who is a good trainer, is actually not a lion trainer, and he didn't like lions and hated when people called him a lion trainer.  He said I have to get some goddamn lions so people will know I actually am a lion trainer.  I saw a doc on him, and he has all tigers for Ringling, no lions.  Eventually he got one small lion and a lioness to walk around with separate from the tigers.  His quotes are about as valid as Maybel Starks, who like you said had tigers the size of dogs.  As well Terrell Jacobs had to save her life, as she was almost killed by lions.  She could not work with lions yet Terrell could, and he she didn't like lions at all.

Some of the other trainers quotes also don't sound legit, saying things like a tiger can beat a lion the best day a lion ever saw.  That sounds kind of bias and dumb, like oh yeah my dad can whip your dad with his hands tied behind his back.  Another trainer said a lion can beat a tiger faster then saying lets have a drink.  Again, stupid, everyone knows its not that easy, that guy probably had one to many drinks him self.  Proske all though a tiger fan admittedly, did not say who would win in a fight, yet gave evidence for the lions side.  Courtney Cooper again an admitted tiger fan also gave more evidence for the lions side.

On the whole Pcts or who ever he is Bigbadbrody, tried to say he had like 12 trainers in total.  But he did not really have 12 mix cat trainers.  Its more like less then 10, if that, because he wouldn't give quotes backing up the rest of the names or links.  Yet I mentioned over 20 trainers and mix cat sources, that is over double the amount of mix cat sources he has, in favor of the lion, that's pretty big.  The only source out of the over 20 I mentioned that wasn't exactly a trainer was Noel Marshall from the movie Roar and Tippi Hedren, and Harrison and Bobbie from out of Africa.  But both those sources guess what, mixed the cats, and when they did, the lion came out on top.  Both Tippi and Noel actually became there own trainers living with the cats, mixing them on there property in there house, that is big, that kind of exposure, not even Beatty was doing that.  The saw the tiger being afraid of many numerous odd things, large siberians to be exact, and the lions constantly were fighting, and the toughest cat was the lion that protected even one of the Siberians from the other lions. 
Harrison and Bobbie would of used trainers as well for out of Africa because they said they were trying to work with the lions much to there dismay to get them not to attack the tigers, yet they still did, instantly, that was a great find.  Now if you check out of Africa they don't have them mixed together, and they show trainers getting in with a large siberian, but they don't show any one getting in the cage with the lion there.  And when they feed the lion at out of Africa, just like what I witnessed it starts roaring and growling at the trainer through the fence.  One of the cats is more aggressive and its not the tiger.
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